If you listen to mainly vocals and Jazz do you need a sub
- Thread starter taters
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taters, what speakers are you using?
I kind of had to ask myself the same question when I decided to add a sub to my system. The answer lies in how appropriate the sub is to the rest of your system and whether your room
can support a sub. In my case, the answer was the sub definitely adds to the realism of bass instruments and the soundstage when playing jazz. The sub does take a smidgeon of purity away
when listening to purely vocals ( easy to switch off in this instance), BUT this is off-set by what else it brings to the table on all other types of music. I think you just have to try it and see if you like it, in my case...I did.
taters, what speakers are you using?
I kind of had to ask myself the same question when I decided to add a sub to my system. The answer lies in how appropriate the sub is to the rest of your system and whether your room
can support a sub. In my case, the answer was the sub definitely adds to the realism of bass instruments and the soundstage when playing jazz. The sub does take a smidgeon of purity away
when listening to purely vocals ( easy to switch off in this instance), BUT this is off-set by what else it brings to the table on all other types of music. I think you just have to try it and see if you like it, in my case...I did.
Dynaudio Confidence 1
taters, that's one of my favorite speakers. A superb stand mount.
I think given that, they would benefit greatly from pairing with a suitable sub. You will need to choose carefully so as not to get a sub that cannot keep up with the C1's; BUT I think
one of the REL's or the JL's should do the trick.
Taters, were in very similar situations as i'm currently auditioning a JL Audio F 113 mated to Magico Minis. From what I hear, hardly, if any, detectable effect on the human voice when the crossover point is carefully chosen. And I agree with Davey, the improvement in soundstage size, ambiance and weight more than outweigh any, if ever, deleterious effect on the midrange. Further, it seems that the image size of vocalists seems to have increased to more lifelike proportions so that even with pure vocals, I find it beneficial to leave the subs on.
Davey, are you using subs with your Guaneri's? Remember my friend who landed a mint G, he's now toying with the idea of mating them to an F 112 or 110 after having heard the Mini/JL lab combo.
The only drawback to running monitors full range with subs is I'm now a bit worried about playing too loudly since the sub assisted system seems to be able to play at louder levels with noticeably less strain. With a true full range system, one knows that the midrange driver is only being worked to a certain frequency unlike in a monitor where the mid/woofer is serving double duty.
Davey, are you using subs with your Guaneri's? Remember my friend who landed a mint G, he's now toying with the idea of mating them to an F 112 or 110 after having heard the Mini/JL lab combo.
The only drawback to running monitors full range with subs is I'm now a bit worried about playing too loudly since the sub assisted system seems to be able to play at louder levels with noticeably less strain. With a true full range system, one knows that the midrange driver is only being worked to a certain frequency unlike in a monitor where the mid/woofer is serving double duty.
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I used a Velodyne DD18 with SF GH some years back, and agree with DaveyF here, some small penalties to pay over the gains - mine had a mute switch and running the SF full, so an easy trick to deploy.
Need? No. 45hz is sufficient to deliver the bloom of a standup bass and the punch of a kick drum, both of which are the low end of the classic jazz ensemble. Benefit? Perhaps. It could put some foundation in there that you might love. But depending on your room and set-up, a sub could cause problems that would send you searching for room correction or additional treatment, or even another sub or two. So I would ask the fundamental question: Are you happy with your system? If yes, you might just want to stay happy and not enter into a round of "upgrades." Or you may at least want to get a sub from someone with a 30 day return policy and give it a really good work out in your system/room for a couple of weeks, turn it off, come back a few days later. Are you happier or are you still trying to get your system/room to synergize with the new sub? Yes? Send it back. Life is too short to spend much of it screwing around with gear when we could be listening to music.
Tim
Tim
dafos, I am using a REL T5 with my GH's. In my very small room, it works exceptionally well. I do have to say that I have treated this room with bass trapping, so that is also a consideration.
The REL took a bit to dial in, BUT once that was accomplished, it disappears into the mix completely.
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carolkoh
[Industry Expert] Member Sponsor
What Tim said.
"It could put some foundation in there that you might love. But depending on your room and set-up, a sub could cause problems that would send you searching for room correction or additional treatment, or even another sub or two."
I'd say see if you can try one out.
"It could put some foundation in there that you might love. But depending on your room and set-up, a sub could cause problems that would send you searching for room correction or additional treatment, or even another sub or two."
I'd say see if you can try one out.
---As Carol just said; get two quality "musical" subs (REL T5, for example). :b
...For better overall dispersed balance in your room. ...Jazz music loves a solid foundation. :b
...For better overall dispersed balance in your room. ...Jazz music loves a solid foundation. :b
I lived for years with speakers that had 45 - 50 Hz and loved them. I eventually designed a sub that matched well with them and discovered all I had been missing. The low string on a guitar is 42 Hz, piano goes down to 27 Hz or so (though rarely is there much energy in it), and there is a lot of percussive energy (plucked strings, drum hits, piano hammers striking the strings) that really requires that next octave down (or more).
Due to the high crossover relative to my personal ability to localize the sub, I eventually used two subs and have done so ever since.
YMMV - Don
Due to the high crossover relative to my personal ability to localize the sub, I eventually used two subs and have done so ever since.
YMMV - Don
Hi
Agree with DonH50 and others.. It isn't so much that you need a sub; 45 Hz is pretty low already but and that is the big "but".. You will be really surprised at how much you have been missing and how much is going below 40 hz.. it is not so much in term of notes or sounds you can quickly identify as the rest of what make the music , music. The ambiance the percussive sounds , the rumble and yes some instruments carry that low even if the notes is not struck. Even genres like classical Baroque Chamber music take an added dimension. I am a convinced multi-subs person and have entirely espoused the Geddes method, At least two subs in asymmetric position with respect to the mains (symmetric do work but not as well IMHO), I tend to think in term of at least 3 subs, asymmetric of course.
My personal opinion on the matter of subs goes further .. Regardless of the intrinsic abilities of your main in 99.99% of the cases one need mutli-subs. It is difficult , call it near impossible to find good positions for both smooth bass and correct soundstaging/imaging.. Rarely do those positions coincide. Speakers with movable sub/woofer such as Genesis 1 and the gen 2 (? still in production) may mitigate this fact because of their independent bass towers , same with the Evo Acoustic MM7, which I am calmly waiting for to audition)
As for the matter of blending subs and mains. it is not easy but far from the almost mystical beast many audiophiles make of it. With he proper tools (ETF or REW , Room EQ Wizard) and equipment something such as the incredibly flexible Behringer DCX-2496 one can do wonder to adjust good subs, there are bad ones of course, with any mains and that include the so called "fast" planars and/or ESL speakers. Not an opinion here , a fact.
Agree with DonH50 and others.. It isn't so much that you need a sub; 45 Hz is pretty low already but and that is the big "but".. You will be really surprised at how much you have been missing and how much is going below 40 hz.. it is not so much in term of notes or sounds you can quickly identify as the rest of what make the music , music. The ambiance the percussive sounds , the rumble and yes some instruments carry that low even if the notes is not struck. Even genres like classical Baroque Chamber music take an added dimension. I am a convinced multi-subs person and have entirely espoused the Geddes method, At least two subs in asymmetric position with respect to the mains (symmetric do work but not as well IMHO), I tend to think in term of at least 3 subs, asymmetric of course.
My personal opinion on the matter of subs goes further .. Regardless of the intrinsic abilities of your main in 99.99% of the cases one need mutli-subs. It is difficult , call it near impossible to find good positions for both smooth bass and correct soundstaging/imaging.. Rarely do those positions coincide. Speakers with movable sub/woofer such as Genesis 1 and the gen 2 (? still in production) may mitigate this fact because of their independent bass towers , same with the Evo Acoustic MM7, which I am calmly waiting for to audition)
As for the matter of blending subs and mains. it is not easy but far from the almost mystical beast many audiophiles make of it. With he proper tools (ETF or REW , Room EQ Wizard) and equipment something such as the incredibly flexible Behringer DCX-2496 one can do wonder to adjust good subs, there are bad ones of course, with any mains and that include the so called "fast" planars and/or ESL speakers. Not an opinion here , a fact.
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If your speakers just go down to 45 Hz you will be amazed on the effect of a good subwoofer if your source and system are able to show the information existing in the lower octave in most recordings - ambiance, imaging and a sensing on being lees mechanical. Some systems will not be able to show it even if add the best subwoofer in the world.
There's also the question of how many dBs down the speaker may be at 45Hz. Since SPL provides size and proximity cues being down even just 3dB shrinks the upright bass or places it farther away from the band. Getting it to flat or to a slightly elevated in room lift makes a big difference. You'll definitely have ample punch and slam with 45Hz capable speakers what you won't get is the tactile follow through from the event's lower register harmonics. Seems a waste of what's on the recording to omit it if you don't actually have to omit it.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Yes, you would benefit from a sub, and yes it is more trouble than it's worth.
Bass is the foundation of music, going down to 20Hz or even lower, you have a better sense of the acoustic space in which the vocals and jazz is played. You also have a better sense of the scale of the stand-up bass and the grand piano (your speakers going down to 45Hz is may be 3dB down at 45Hz). If you listen to Oscar Peterson at all, he plays a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand and that goes down to 16.35 Hz (although you aren't supposed to play those black keys).
However, integrating a sub at 45Hz is also pretty difficult. 45Hz is a 25ft wavelength. Depending on the phase response of the bottom end of your speakers, and group delay of the sub, you could be moving the sub around within a 25foot circle around the speakers. Of course, I'm just totally anal about bass coherence, and to many people it doesn't matter as much. With a sub, you might also excite more room-related problems.
So, while you could definitely benefit, you could also find less time to enjoy your music.
Very good advice offered on this thread IMO. In short, my advice would be that no matter what genre of music you may listen too? A sub(s) along with a management system and proper sub placement(s) will definitely add to your listening experience and not detract. Once this is set up, you will not need to worry about less time to enjoy the music. Only more time to enjoy a better reproduction thereof.
Tom
Tom
My Rythmik's have a continuous phase control knob that makes integration far easier than in days of yore.
Hi Dafos - i was looking for your comments about Minis & JL earlier...found 'em! My experiences match yours, and i ran SF Gs with Velodyne DD18 for a while...and i now have Wilson X1/Slamms and i still use it...though all the settings are totally different of course.
As for volumes, i agree with the effortless bit...so that volumes can go up and up without strain which can be deceptively dangerous. At the same time, what i have found over the last 7-months is that my volume is going DOWN...not up. The reason is that with the proper setup and much lower distortion due to other improvements, i heard everything i wish for at much lower volumes and am thus very satisfied...and this in particular includes deep propulsive bass that still comes thru at low volumes.
Iloydelee, when a piece of gear, specially a transducer, is inserted into the system, there's a tendency to play louder than usual. I've noticed that late night sessions, at relatively lower volumes have become more satisfying as well with the addition of subs for the reasons you've stated. Never having owned a speaker that can do a true 20hz, listening at lower levels and at the same time clearly hearing the subtle low frequency detail is a revelation.
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