Ikeda 407 alignment
- Thread starter lscangus
- Start date
Ikeda-407 is a very fine high mass arm. The manual specifies the eff. length at 307mm and mounting distance at 295mm, thus 12mm overhang. However it is not easy to find a protractor with a 307mm eff. Length tracking scheme, be it Lofgren or Baerwald.
Either you can ask someone to customize a protractor with the specified eff. Length and mounting distance. Or you just ignore the alignment curves and go straight to align your stylus with the 2 null points. You could try the null points of the Lofgren or Baerwald or even Stevenson to see which fits your cart better. By all means, the geometry works on a straight linear arm is different from a curved arm as Ikeda 407.
Normally an old fashion arm like Ikeda 407 should provide a mounting template for users to align the carts. SME V arms provides an easy way to align the carts. Pity that Ikeda doesn’t provide.
Either you can ask someone to customize a protractor with the specified eff. Length and mounting distance. Or you just ignore the alignment curves and go straight to align your stylus with the 2 null points. You could try the null points of the Lofgren or Baerwald or even Stevenson to see which fits your cart better. By all means, the geometry works on a straight linear arm is different from a curved arm as Ikeda 407.
Normally an old fashion arm like Ikeda 407 should provide a mounting template for users to align the carts. SME V arms provides an easy way to align the carts. Pity that Ikeda doesn’t provide.
you can buy in the internet everything you need to align the 407
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Or you buy the only protractor you will ever need from WallyTools. It will fix all you need.
Good luck
/ Jk
www.wallyanalog.com
Good luck
/ Jk
WallyTractor | WAM Engineering LLC WallyTools Analog Setup Tools
WallyTractor Universal - the most accurate cartridge alignment protractor in the world.
www.wallyanalog.com
The one I dealth with had an overhang protractor together with a mounting template but maybe they’ve stopped including it.
I agrre with @Johan K. Alternately you can use a two point protractor or any protractor you wish, smartractor, feickert, mint etc. Don’t use a printed out protractor cause it’s impossible to print out at correct dimensions (at-least I couldn’t do it). Choosing Lofgren A or B is not very critical, either is fine.
Don’t worry whether it’s straight, S or J shaped arm geometry works the same way. You can settle on any of the 3 alignment curves as long as headshell holes permit.
Thanks Johan. I have a Wally protractor. However, there’s no 307mm alignment curve. Would you share how you align the cart with Wally? Do you increase/decrease the mounting distance and use 308.8/305.6 to achieve the 12mm overhang?Or you buy the only protractor you will ever need from WallyTools. It will fix all you need.
Good luck
/ Jk
WallyTractor | WAM Engineering LLC WallyTools Analog Setup Tools
WallyTractor Universal - the most accurate cartridge alignment protractor in the world.
View attachment 106936
Thanks.
Hi ShawnZH,
Yes that is exactly what you do. You can choose either one of them, it does not matter which one as long as the cartridge still can travel in the headshell mounting wholes. So you try one - try starting with the 305.6mm, and follow the WallyTools aligning manual, if it works it works and you are good. If it does not - try the 308,8mm curve and try to align the cartridge there. Do not bother so much of the 12mm overhang… the WallyTractor will compensate for this. As it is two curves at each length, you can choose either Lofgren or Baerwald depending of what type of music you listen to the most. If it’s rock, pop and acoustical music, choose the Lofgren curve. If it’s mostly classical music, where the crescendo is in the end of the record side close to the spindle you might want to choose the Baerwald curve, due to it’s much lower distorsion at the end of the records compared to Lofgren.
Then you either choose the ”old” record collection curves - if most of your record collection is pressed before 1990. OR☝… you can choose the ”newer” collection curves, if your record collection mostly is pressed after 1990 and untill now.
The difference is where in the curves the distorsion is at it’s lowest point the longest period of time on the records. and where the inner most grooves stops from the spindle. Older pressings tend to have their inner most grooves closer to the spindle, while the newer pressings (after 1990) tend to have their inner most grooves further out away from the spindle. Due to this, the lowest distorsion comes at different places on the record… and you like to choose the one best suited for your own record collection.. right.
It is all there in the WallyTractor’s user manual.
Hope that will help you get going.
Remember… nothing is 100% right or wrong here.. it is ALL a compromize - trying to get the best out of it. Just use the one curve best suited for you, and you will be fine.
All the best
/ Johan
But at
but with the setup at the moment. I am getting quite a bit of distortion in the inner ring.
than rotate the cartridge a very little to adjust the offset.
Your cart fits to Ikeda 407?
Ikeda 407 specifications sheet does not mention offset angle but it's most probably around 17 degrees which is very close to Stevenson geometry. Please check the table below:
The geometry that Ikeda uses is somewhere between Stevenson and Lofgren A (Baerwald) but closer to Stevenson. As I said before you can choose whichever you want as long as slots on the headshell allows.
I recommend Lofgren A (Baerwald). You can use Wally protractor's 308.8mm arc with IEC radiuses cause this calculation based on IEC and most common is also IEC. There is 0.57 mm effective length difference but it's not important cause it's impossible to mount a tonearm precisely at 295.0mm. There is always an error at least a couple of mm while mounting a tonearm which will eventually change effective length. On the other hand overhang does not change dramatically with a small effective length change. It is not calculated above but overhang is almost the same from 307 to 308.8mm effective length. For a proper alignment it's mandatory to set the overhang correctly not the effective length. That's why if you can set the cartridge to follow the arc precisely is perfect.
Cartridge should be tilted 0.65 degrees towards the spindle due to new offset angle but it's not noticeable either.
The geometry that Ikeda uses is somewhere between Stevenson and Lofgren A (Baerwald) but closer to Stevenson. As I said before you can choose whichever you want as long as slots on the headshell allows.
I recommend Lofgren A (Baerwald). You can use Wally protractor's 308.8mm arc with IEC radiuses cause this calculation based on IEC and most common is also IEC. There is 0.57 mm effective length difference but it's not important cause it's impossible to mount a tonearm precisely at 295.0mm. There is always an error at least a couple of mm while mounting a tonearm which will eventually change effective length. On the other hand overhang does not change dramatically with a small effective length change. It is not calculated above but overhang is almost the same from 307 to 308.8mm effective length. For a proper alignment it's mandatory to set the overhang correctly not the effective length. That's why if you can set the cartridge to follow the arc precisely is perfect.
Cartridge should be tilted 0.65 degrees towards the spindle due to new offset angle but it's not noticeable either.
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That's what I did with my 407 - vary the mounting point. There is no matching curve for it, it's a weird one and you just have to live with the fact that it's not a standard geometry. Get it roughly right-ish within the parameters a mix of standard geometries, and it'll sound fine.
Hi montesquieu,
Hmm sounds weird to me… but.. okey if you say so I belive you.
Well okay… this is what I would do… I should mail or even call to J.R. Boisclair at WallyTools and consult with him… His a great guy and can definitely help you out. I’m quite sure he will have a solution to your problem.
/ Jk
It
It's all a guide, not holy writ. The fact that there are multiple 'official' geometries (and quite a few others that haven't caught on so much like the Unitractor approach) suggests there's far more flexibility in stylus alignment than people really anal about following their protractor would care to admit.
In a way I suppose it was reassuring that the Glanz 10in and 12in I replaced my 9 and 12in Ikedas with have totally 'standard' geometries but also boring doing away with all the trial and error, you know actually LISTENING (a novel concept it seems) rather than just measuring.
There are still decisions to be made though, if you run the numbers the standard geometries at 50mm collet to stylus work work fine, but Glanz insist that the 51.5/52mm of the typical SPU also works fine, and you know it does, coming in better in some ways than 50mm. This tells me they were pretty smart in their design choices. (I run 50mm for my MSLs and Murakasino Sumile, and that works great, but have no audible distortion either with my SPU 95th anniversary at 52mm).
It's an art, not a science - the maths can be useful but it's not the final word.
It's all a guide, not holy writ. The fact that there are multiple 'official' geometries (and quite a few others that haven't caught on so much like the Unitractor approach) suggests there's far more flexibility in stylus alignment than people really anal about following their protractor would care to admit.
In a way I suppose it was reassuring that the Glanz 10in and 12in I replaced my 9 and 12in Ikedas with have totally 'standard' geometries but also boring doing away with all the trial and error, you know actually LISTENING (a novel concept it seems) rather than just measuring.
There are still decisions to be made though, if you run the numbers the standard geometries at 50mm collet to stylus work work fine, but Glanz insist that the 51.5/52mm of the typical SPU also works fine, and you know it does, coming in better in some ways than 50mm. This tells me they were pretty smart in their design choices. (I run 50mm for my MSLs and Murakasino Sumile, and that works great, but have no audible distortion either with my SPU 95th anniversary at 52mm).
It's an art, not a science - the maths can be useful but it's not the final word.
Now we’re talking!! Sounds that you’re about to figure it all out. Great job☝
! I absolutly agree to what you just wrote.I’d say the final word is compromise. Because that is what vinyl playback is… It is always a compromise to get the least amount of distorsion and tracking error…
In the end… if you minimise all those faults, distorsion and tracking error, you will end up with a pretty darn good sound if the rest of the system allows it. Let the ears be the final judge to the sound.
Btw: it is always good to have more than one protractor to align the cart with. It is definitely more then ONE approach to the best sound on each different turntables and tonearms.
/ Jk
Any template/gadget that uses a fixed distance (ex. 50mm or 52mm) from collet to stylus to set overhang contains extreme errors. Those gadgets' fixed distance is determined by and rely upon precisely mounting tonearm at the exact pivot to spindle distance (P2S). Which will never happen. It is impossible to mount a tonearm at 0.5mm precision. It is simply impossible. Whatever error you made on P2S distance while mounting the tonearm will reflect on overhang. There is 0.5 mm difference between Baerwald and Lofgren geometries. Setting overhang precisely is paramount. That's why I don't recommend using those gadgets.
There is no need to contemplate about this arm's or any arm's geometry. Solution is to get :
- An arc protractor like wally or mint, etc.
- Or one of the other universal protractors. Two point, paper, Feickert, Smartracktor etc. Some work better but any of them will do just fine.
There is no need to contemplate about this arm's or any arm's geometry. Solution is to get :
- An arc protractor like wally or mint, etc.
- Or one of the other universal protractors. Two point, paper, Feickert, Smartracktor etc. Some work better but any of them will do just fine.
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Indeed. Most online discussions on the subject of alignment seem to centre on an erroneous belief that a tonearm manufacturer's original geometry is sacrosanct, but in truth there are any number of geometric permutations, all of which can work well. But, any chosen geometry will only work well if the user aligns the cartridge very carefully to it. There are plenty of free online resources for generating accurate arc templates; and while I do prefer the simplicity of the SMARTractor most of the time, there's not much else to beat an arc template!
So, the lesson here is to choose your preferred geometry and align carefully to it. That's it.
Just an update for all of you guys, Thank you so much for all the contribution. I have managed to tune it to 12mm overhang and I got significantly less distortion after all. But I still cannot illimate all the distortion I get ( I tried zenith angle and VTA ), last track of side A of Horowitz in Moscow, or is it pretty much impossible to do so?
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