In general my digital is better than my vinyl. but my vinyl is better than my digital

[Atmasphere]

Some people say the "biggest problem" with vinyl is the physical medium itself and the physical process of making a record.

IME the limitation of LPs is more on the playback side than the recording side. My Westerex 3D cutter can cut grooves without overload that no tonearm/cartridge combination can track. Mastering engineers are acutely aware of this so they take steps to make sure the grooves they cut are actually playable by run of the mill stuff.

 

[caesar]

IME the limitation of LPs is more on the playback side than the recording side. My Westerex 3D cutter can cut grooves without overload that no tonearm/cartridge combination can track. Mastering engineers are acutely aware of this so they take steps to make sure the grooves they cut are actually playable by run of the mill stuff.

Hi Atmasphere, pardon the ignorant question, but can you please elaborate on how you know that what's in the grooves and what can track what. Thanks in advance

 

[Solypsa]

Back when I had the Neumann VMS70 system a guy with a edm/dub type of label brought me a digital recording that he wanted 'record setting deep bass on' pun intended. The musical bass content wasn't all that special, tons of hard limiting etc. but just for kicks I eq'd in a bunch of really low LF using the (then state of the art) Algorithmix dsp. Of course it was a woofer pumping mess on his sl1200s. For me it was just an experiement. Dialed it back and cut him a normal record. Anyways I concure with Ralph...

 

[tima]

IME the limitation of LPs is more on the playback side than the recording side. My Westerex 3D cutter can cut grooves without overload that no tonearm/cartridge combination can track. Mastering engineers are acutely aware of this so they take steps to make sure the grooves they cut are actually playable by run of the mill stuff.

I don't know enough about this. I've heard or read people who talk about the physical process of making a record find weakness less so in groove cutting and more in the manufacturing of the vinyl disc. Not theoretical issues but physical and machining issues such as the quality of vinyl pellets available at any given time, the ability to put a proper sized hole in the middle of the record, etc. Not so much that getting it right is not possible, but that the economics of mass manufacture didn't support quality control. Today that problem is somewhat mitigated by $35-$50+ reissues.

 

[Lagonda]

I don't know enough about this. I've heard or read people who talk about the physical process of making a record find weakness less so in groove cutting and more in the manufacturing of the vinyl disc. Not theoretical issues but physical and machining issues such as the quality of vinyl pellets available at any given time, the ability to put a proper sized hole in the middle of the record, etc. Not so much that getting it right is not possible, but that the economics of mass manufacture didn't support quality control. Today that problem is somewhat mitigated by $35-$50+ reissues.

Tim, in my experience there is a surprising amount of badly pressed/ warped records among the very expensive reissues from MoFi and AP, 180g is definitely not a guarantee for consistency

 

[tima]

Tim, in my experience there is a surprising amount of badly pressed/ warped records among the very expensive reissues from MoFi and AP, 180g is definitely not a guarantee for consistency

Yes, I agree, ergo 'somewhat mitigated'.

 

[Atmasphere]

I've heard or read people who talk about the physical process of making a record find weakness less so in groove cutting and more in the manufacturing of the vinyl disc. Not theoretical issues but physical and machining issues such as the quality of vinyl pellets available at any given time, the ability to put a proper sized hole in the middle of the record, etc

The ability to cut a proper groove is entirely up to the mastering engineer.

The mastering can make quite a difference! Because that is the most expensive part of the process, a lot of producers will have the mastering done with compression and other processing to make the job as easy to do as possible (cheaper). But if you spend time with the project, even if you have out of phase bass, there are usually ways to make the master go just fine and get a playable groove without any sort of processing at all.

If the master recording is a digital file, quite often its a good idea to go to the producer and see if the file is available without the usual compression used for digital release. This is because the digital release file will often have DSP using compression and such; if you get the file without that it will sound better. Compression is often used in the digital release because it might be played in a car or just because you can use more bits to describe the sound- and get better resolution by sacrificing dynamics. That's not an issue with LPs so the only DSP you want is normalization which ensures that all tracks won't play above a certain level. This is one of the reasons that LPs often seem to have more dynamic punch. Traditionally they've also had more bandwidth (35KHz is typical) but digital has been slowly chipping away at that.

Getting the hole diameter and concentricity right is mostly about care in the pressing process. A good pressing plant like RTI or QRP usually has that stuff right.

 

[Kingrex]

I just received 2 new record and the quality is a letdown. Warped, thin, and most irritating, the album is a double with 2 to 3 songs a side. Most ot the vinyl unused. Yet instead of cutting the groove somewhat near the middle in the tangential sweet spot, it all the way at the outside edge. Not done well in my mind for $50.

 

[Solypsa]

To be fair there is a vector between outer groove having the lowest groove velocity vs being between the null points. So its not uncommon for 'special releases' to be focused towards outside...

...its also not uncommon for 'special releases' to be pretty meh. Sorry you got one.

 

[Atmasphere]

The nice thing about reissue, especially ones with special vinyl and direct from the master tape and such, is that they bring down the price of the originals

 

[Gregadd]

I spent some time this weekend at my friends house listening to some music.. He’s heavy into vinyl and has a great sounding system. VPI, Manley steelhead, VSR VR7’s, BAT REXX monos.. He played some Bowie, a British pressing of “Hunkey Dory” the song “Bewlay Brothers” was outstanding ! dynamics galore and lots of detail emerged, more so than I was expecting.. I came away impressed once again at his system.. I went home and fired up my ripped CD version of the same.. Trying to get a handle on what I may be missing.. He came by later that evening to pick up some cables.. I sat him down and played the same track. He was amazed that the digital playback was so involving and so close to his beloved pressing..
He‘s now considering the Yggdrasil for his system.. not Just for the convenience... but for the SQ as well..
View attachment 72004

Vinyl. The original room treatment.

 

[Mikem53]

The nice thing about reissue, especially ones with special vinyl and direct from the master tape and such, is that they bring down the price of the originals

This is funny, but True.. and it applies to Digital too..
@tima, posted a tune in a music thread awhile back, “feels like rain” By Aaron Nevill. He was pointing out the very deep chorus vocals by Willie Greene Jr, Great tune and performance!
I had the original CD, “Warm your heart” by A&M music produced in 1991 which is standard redbook 16/44 recording.
I also purchased the import CD from Japan that used the K2HD “mastering” just to compare copies as I was looking for the best SQ that was available. The K2HD mastered version is also only Available in redbook 16/44. I also Checked Amazon HD streaming, which also only had the redbook 1991 version in SD.
So I did a secure rip on both CD’s in FLAC and uncompressed WAV format.
Comparing the two versions was like having two different performances. The import K2 version was “enhanced” sounding. Vocals were more forward and instruments were more startling, seemingly out of time almost.
I ultimately liked the original version Better! Was more real and “balanced” sounding, just more natural Flowing and enjoyable.
What I also discovered was that WAV files sound “better” than lossless FLAC files ! They are very close.. and I’m not sure I could AB them correctly each time... but I did perceive a more natural rendered sound with the WAV files.. sighs..

 

[tima]

@tima, posted a tune in a music thread awhile back, “feels like rain” By Aaron Nevill. He was pointing out the very deep chorus vocals by Willie Greene Jr, Great tune and performance!

Which I wrote about in a review of Ralph's MA-1 mk.3.1 !

Edit: I keep listening to that song and use a gear's ability to resolve Willie as an assessment tool. I should add that that Atma-Sphere amp revealed Greene's voice more clearly and distinctly than any amp I've heard since.

 

[Mikem53]

Which I wrote about in a review of Ralph's MA-1 mk.3.1 !

Edit: I keep listening to that song and use a gear's ability to resolve Willie as an assessment tool. I should add that that Atma-Sphere amp revealed Greene's voice more clearly and distinctly than any amp I've heard since.

Tim, Your excellent writing skills and command of the English language did well in complimenting Ralph’s design and technical prowess ! Interesting read, kudos to you both!

 

[tima]

Tim, Your excellent writing skills and command of the English language did well in complimenting Ralph’s design and technical prowess ! Interesting read, kudos to you both!

Thank you Mike - much appreciated. Ralph deserves the credit, I just wrote about it.

 

[Mikem53]

@Atmasphere ... Ralph.. from Tim’s article, This is like fine artwork to me Worthy of framing.. Very nice

 

[Atmasphere]

Thanks! We actually still make the MA-1 in that package (actually with a polished stainless main chassis), updated as Mk3.3. One of our overseas distributors talked us into it.

 

[Rensselaer]

With my Lumin X1 I can make multiple playlists with up to 2000 songs per list. I can then listen to hours of music without moving, and it sounds fantastic. With vinyl I would have to get up every 15-20 minutes to change records. Each record has to be cleaned to be played, and each record deteriorates each time it is played. I got rid of my turntable and records in the 80s, and have no desire to return to 19th century technology.

With care, a vinyl LP should play well for 100 years or more. I am only saying that I wouldn't harp too much about the wear with playing.

 

[Atmasphere]

I've played LPs many times and not been aware of any wear. But it makes a difference having a tonearm that tracks properly. The more LPs you have, the more sense it makes to have a tonearm that can do the job right. You have over time a lot of money in those LPs; its worth it to treat them well.

I know 'no-one likes a math nerd' but the LP is 20th century not 19th. But with all the improvements that have occurred since the turn of the century the LP has kept up with 20th century digital quite well Yes, I'm saying digital is 20th century tech too