In search of my last great loudspeaker

[FrantzM]

Whichever way Marty goes, I doubt he'll be able to find anything close to what he was routinely achieving with DSP; especially in light of the glowing reports many wrote about his former Tact-DSP'ed and EQ'ed system.
I'm not sure it would be easy to replicate the solidity of images that the Pipedreams did throw if this is not a line source or point source of some sort.. then again there were other priorities

 

[marty]

Folks, my intent is not to be coy in any way. But my speaker plans are not straight-forward ( as in plug and play). There is a bit of a project involved and I prefer not to go into details until I know the outcome is successful. This will unfortunately take a while.

I should also re-emphasize that speakers without adjustability are not necessarily a "no go". As I mentioned, its just not my preference because my sense that the likelihood of obtaining an excellent/preferred in room response is reduced with a speaker that has no adjustability. If a plug and play speaker sounds great however and rings my chimes, no reason per se it would be ruled out.

 

[NorthStar]

I'm burning. :b

 

[tedtag]

DSP correction for me isn't a panacea and should be avoided at all costs, unless there are pesky peaks and troughs that haven't been corrected by the organic, acoustic room treatment. It's a last resort. It's a last resort for a couple of reasons: each DSP component will have its own signature. Grounding issues with the added component can complicate matters

Great post Marty and I very much appreciate your thoughtful comments! I recently completed a similar speaker search and have a pair of Vivid Giya G1's on order. They should be here sometime in October and I am anxiously awaiting their arrival. The wait has been sort of tolerable because the room these are going in is still under construction and won't be ready for about a month. I'm using the ASC wall damping system and a truckload of supplies including gaskets, resilient channels, etc are boxed up in a corner waiting to be installed.

I went through a similar process of separating DSP speakers from conventional speakers and eliminated all DSP speakers mostly because I have been very successful in taming my current room by ear over a very painful (but fun!) 2 year process. This system has Maggie 3.7i's and right now my new CAT Legend and JL7's that are earmarked for the Vivid's when they arrive.

At first my current room seemed hopeless but I was able to make great progress just with speaker placement. From there, I would listen carefully for reflections and bumps and added Tube Traps, Stillpoint Apertures, and then Synergistic Research FEQ's, Black Boxes, and HFT's. All of these eventually worked very well together and each item was added or moved with no measurements, just by ear. At this point, it is almost impossible to listen to the system without having a profound emotional reaction to the music; and that is my goal.

Somewhere along my 40 year Audiophile journey, I decided its just not that important to me how my system measures as long as I experience a deep connection to the music and what the artist is trying to express. Its completely different than my analytic, rational, scientific, business like mind, usually works. What really transformed the system was the CAT gear. Not that I was using 2nd rate products; the CAT's have temporarily replaced a CJ GAT2 with Premier 8's (all teflon upgrades and kt120's). I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago about having to keep a box of Kleenex nearby and its become more like a case of Kleenex. Last night side #1 of Belafonte at Carnegie Hall absolutely reduced me to a puddle. There was no stopping it. And afterwords, the buzz i felt for hours completely changed my entire perspective on everything; absolutely fulfilling and I am not an emotionally expressive guy.

I'll report back on the Vivid's but if they don't get the results I expect in the new room, I may just buy a pair of 20.7's matched with the CATs and be done with it. The Maggie's with CATs have repeatedly provided the most powerful emotional experience I've ever had. Hopefully, the Vivid's reach another level with more detail and the ability to reveal it at slightly lower volumes. Plus, I ordered a TechDas 3 with Graham Phantom arm and the new TechDas cartridge for the front end. That could be here this weekend and if so, I'll put it in the Maggie/ CAT system to temporarily replace my VPI Signature with Koetsu Blue Lace.

So using your $1K per item formula, I think I'm up to about $5,000; way over budget!!! (love how you came up with the price tag idea!)

 

[LL21]

...What really transformed the system was the CAT gear. Not that I was using 2nd rate products; the CAT's have temporarily replaced a CJ GAT2 with Premier 8's (all teflon upgrades and kt120's). I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago about having to keep a box of Kleenex nearby and its become more like a case of Kleenex. Last night side #1 of Belafonte at Carnegie Hall absolutely reduced me to a puddle. There was no stopping it. And afterwords, the buzz i felt for hours completely changed my entire perspective on everything; absolutely fulfilling and I am not an emotionally expressive guy.

I'll report back on the Vivid's but if they don't get the results I expect in the new room, I may just buy a pair of 20.7's matched with the CATs and be done with it....

Hi Tedtag, sorry if perhaps this has come up (including from me) before, but would love to hear your comparison of CJ GAT 2 (i own the GAT 1) and your CAT. By any chance did you do CAT pre v CJ GAT2 pre? Or was it a complete replacement of CAT for CJ? Thanks for any feedback. As a longtime CJ fan, always interested to hear how people compare with them with other great names.

 

[tedtag]

Hi Tedtag, sorry if perhaps this has come up (including from me) before, but would love to hear your comparison of CJ GAT 2 (i own the GAT 1) and your CAT. By any chance did you do CAT pre v CJ GAT2 pre? Or was it a complete replacement of CAT for CJ? Thanks for any feedback. As a longtime CJ fan, always interested to hear how people compare with them with other great names.

Hi LL21. Here is what I wrote in a couple of posts below in a thread called "JL5" under the Convergent Audio Technologies heading comparing the CAT Legend to the GAT2. I love both of these amazing preamps but because I've gone completely vinyl, I have to say I favor the CAT. That phono section is incredible and the simplicity of no outboard phono preamp, no SUT, no extra cables...... it really pays off.

But I must love punishment to go through the rituals that vinyl requires; the cleaning, the flipping, no accurate cueing for a song, the cartridge alignment, and on and on. Yup, I really do love every part of the vinyl experience. Fremer got me started on it about 8 years ago when I went to one of his set up seminars at Axpona in Jacksonville. Since then I think I've been to at least a half dozen more and sat in the front row mesmerized each time. I had an old Merrill Heirloom with no idea about how to dial it in. So I asked him if it was worth the effort to try and resurrect that Heirloom or buy something new. He encouraged me to take it all apart, put it all back together, learn how it works, understand all the parts, buy all the set up tools, and get to work. Since then I've learned a lot and am really pretty proud of my hard earned set up skills.

But back to preamps. My advise is to do the GAT2 upgrade as soon as you can part with it for about 3 to 4 weeks. It's not a subtle difference but a major improvement. More detail, more transparency, better dynamics, more 3D soundstage, and the CJ signature is still right there. (I'm still a huge CJ fan!) Plus its quieter. For the $4500 price tag, my opinion is its well worth it and very reasonable for the improvement in sound quality. If you have any more specific questions, I'm glad to more clearly address those. One of these days, when I reconfigure my gear, I'm going to make a point to do a real head to head comparison of the CAT and GAT2, with digital so its fair. I can't really see a way to do a fair comparison with vinyl.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18818-Cat-jl5/page12

 

[Kingsrule]

I'm burning. :b

I'm leaving..who cares?

 

[marty]

Great post Marty and I very much appreciate your thoughtful comments! I recently completed a similar speaker search and have a pair of Vivid Giya G1's on order. They should be here sometime in October and I am anxiously awaiting their arrival. The wait has been sort of tolerable because the room these are going in is still under construction and won't be ready for about a month. I'm using the ASC wall damping system and a truckload of supplies including gaskets, resilient channels, etc are boxed up in a corner waiting to be installed.

I went through a similar process of separating DSP speakers from conventional speakers and eliminated all DSP speakers mostly because I have been very successful in taming my current room by ear over a very painful (but fun!) 2 year process. This system has Maggie 3.7i's and right now my new CAT Legend and JL7's that are earmarked for the Vivid's when they arrive.

At first my current room seemed hopeless but I was able to make great progress just with speaker placement. From there, I would listen carefully for reflections and bumps and added Tube Traps, Stillpoint Apertures, and then Synergistic Research FEQ's, Black Boxes, and HFT's. All of these eventually worked very well together and each item was added or moved with no measurements, just by ear. At this point, it is almost impossible to listen to the system without having a profound emotional reaction to the music; and that is my goal.

Somewhere along my 40 year Audiophile journey, I decided its just not that important to me how my system measures as long as I experience a deep connection to the music and what the artist is trying to express. Its completely different than my analytic, rational, scientific, business like mind, usually works. What really transformed the system was the CAT gear. Not that I was using 2nd rate products; the CAT's have temporarily replaced a CJ GAT2 with Premier 8's (all teflon upgrades and kt120's). I wrote a post a couple of weeks ago about having to keep a box of Kleenex nearby and its become more like a case of Kleenex. Last night side #1 of Belafonte at Carnegie Hall absolutely reduced me to a puddle. There was no stopping it. And afterwords, the buzz i felt for hours completely changed my entire perspective on everything; absolutely fulfilling and I am not an emotionally expressive guy.

I'll report back on the Vivid's but if they don't get the results I expect in the new room, I may just buy a pair of 20.7's matched with the CATs and be done with it. The Maggie's with CATs have repeatedly provided the most powerful emotional experience I've ever had. Hopefully, the Vivid's reach another level with more detail and the ability to reveal it at slightly lower volumes. Plus, I ordered a TechDas 3 with Graham Phantom arm and the new TechDas cartridge for the front end. That could be here this weekend and if so, I'll put it in the Maggie/ CAT system to temporarily replace my VPI Signature with Koetsu Blue Lace.

So using your $1K per item formula, I think I'm up to about $5,000; way over budget!!! (love how you came up with the price tag idea!)

Really nice post Ted. And an exciting project. But watch that budget! 5K on audio gear? You must be one of those crazy people Good luck and have fun.

 

[NorthStar]

I'm burning. :b

I'm leaving..who cares?

No you're not. :b Fire's still burning, and I certainly care...I wanna know about Marty's journey...his search for his last great loudspeakers. ...And more.

 

[bonzo75]

Actually, it was pretty easy to google various Apogee measurement articles, which are bass, bass, bass, and the Diva bass is

115db SPL @ 4m with 100W amplifier in a 18'x25'x8' room

25Hz (-3dB) to 25kHz

550 to 12k is the mids ribbon

So either that measurement was completely miscalculated, or, possibly, Rich prefers a low bass when he listens, and that can easily be set right since his crossover box is external and he just has to flip something.

 

[LL21]

Hi LL21. Here is what I wrote in a couple of posts below in a thread called "JL5" under the Convergent Audio Technologies heading comparing the CAT Legend to the GAT2. I love both of these amazing preamps but because I've gone completely vinyl, I have to say I favor the CAT. That phono section is incredible and the simplicity of no outboard phono preamp, no SUT, no extra cables...... it really pays off.

But I must love punishment to go through the rituals that vinyl requires; the cleaning, the flipping, no accurate cueing for a song, the cartridge alignment, and on and on. Yup, I really do love every part of the vinyl experience. Fremer got me started on it about 8 years ago when I went to one of his set up seminars at Axpona in Jacksonville. Since then I think I've been to at least a half dozen more and sat in the front row mesmerized each time. I had an old Merrill Heirloom with no idea about how to dial it in. So I asked him if it was worth the effort to try and resurrect that Heirloom or buy something new. He encouraged me to take it all apart, put it all back together, learn how it works, understand all the parts, buy all the set up tools, and get to work. Since then I've learned a lot and am really pretty proud of my hard earned set up skills.

But back to preamps. My advise is to do the GAT2 upgrade as soon as you can part with it for about 3 to 4 weeks. It's not a subtle difference but a major improvement. More detail, more transparency, better dynamics, more 3D soundstage, and the CJ signature is still right there. (I'm still a huge CJ fan!) Plus its quieter. For the $4500 price tag, my opinion is its well worth it and very reasonable for the improvement in sound quality. If you have any more specific questions, I'm glad to more clearly address those. One of these days, when I reconfigure my gear, I'm going to make a point to do a real head to head comparison of the CAT and GAT2, with digital so its fair. I can't really see a way to do a fair comparison with vinyl.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18818-Cat-jl5/page12

Thank you!

 

[YashN]

I should also re-emphasize that speakers without adjustability are not necessarily a "no go". As I mentioned, its just not my preference because my sense that the likelihood of obtaining an excellent/preferred in room response is reduced with a speaker that has no adjustability. If a plug and play speaker sounds great however and rings my chimes, no reason per se it would be ruled out.

Looks like you're not too committed on your original pursuit.

Where are we on this?

Looks like this might be helpful: The Leonidas Crossover.

Voicing the crossover to your taste, like never before…
by simply swapping the components for perfect matching !

The Leonidas XO was designed around the ability of PureAudioProject high-end Open Baffle woofers to seamlessly blend with market top-end full range drivers or tweeters.

Leonidas unique fixed serial topology allows careful voicing of the crossover to the specific listening environment, the sonic signature of the equipment, and the personal sonic taste. All of this is done by simply swapping the relevant components to their best values and grade, one at the time, by only a screw-driver and on the same circuit board.

With no soldering, all components connect to gold plated terminals, mounted on a high-end circuit board, designed by PureAudioProject and made by Mundorf in Germany.

When done right, the drivers blend into one unified set, presenting superior transparency, image and sonic mass over most of the standard crossovers !

However, if you're going to tinker with crossovers and so on, it would be much better to architect a system with crossovers before the amps, and multi-amp.

 

[steve williams]

I know Marty has been tight lipped about the project but the main reason is that not only has he been traveling extensively but also his speakers are not due to arrive until this Monday

 

[YashN]

I know Marty has been tight lipped about the project but the main reason is that not only has he been traveling extensively but also his speakers are not due to arrive until this Monday

Looks like we'll have some news soon, then.

 

[steve williams]

My guess is an answer will be slow coming as Marty being the scientist that he is will be dialing these speakers in until he is familiar with them before he starts on his project

 

[caesar]

I know Marty has been tight lipped about the project but the main reason is that not only has he been traveling extensively but also his speakers are not due to arrive until this Monday

Hey Steve, do you know what Sagacious Marty has chosen? (not asking you to spill the beans! )

 

[caesar]

Hi LL21. Here is what I wrote in a couple of posts below in a thread called "JL5" under the Convergent Audio Technologies heading comparing the CAT Legend to the GAT2. I love both of these amazing preamps but because I've gone completely vinyl, I have to say I favor the CAT. That phono section is incredible and the simplicity of no outboard phono preamp, no SUT, no extra cables...... it really pays off.

But I must love punishment to go through the rituals that vinyl requires; the cleaning, the flipping, no accurate cueing for a song, the cartridge alignment, and on and on. Yup, I really do love every part of the vinyl experience. Fremer got me started on it about 8 years ago when I went to one of his set up seminars at Axpona in Jacksonville. Since then I think I've been to at least a half dozen more and sat in the front row mesmerized each time. I had an old Merrill Heirloom with no idea about how to dial it in. So I asked him if it was worth the effort to try and resurrect that Heirloom or buy something new. He encouraged me to take it all apart, put it all back together, learn how it works, understand all the parts, buy all the set up tools, and get to work. Since then I've learned a lot and am really pretty proud of my hard earned set up skills.

But back to preamps. My advise is to do the GAT2 upgrade as soon as you can part with it for about 3 to 4 weeks. It's not a subtle difference but a major improvement. More detail, more transparency, better dynamics, more 3D soundstage, and the CJ signature is still right there. (I'm still a huge CJ fan!) Plus its quieter. For the $4500 price tag, my opinion is its well worth it and very reasonable for the improvement in sound quality. If you have any more specific questions, I'm glad to more clearly address those. One of these days, when I reconfigure my gear, I'm going to make a point to do a real head to head comparison of the CAT and GAT2, with digital so its fair. I can't really see a way to do a fair comparison with vinyl.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18818-Cat-jl5/page12

Tedtag, congrats! Great system! I hope your AMAZING listening experiences don't cease!

 

[caesar]

Hi Tedtag, sorry if perhaps this has come up (including from me) before, but would love to hear your comparison of CJ GAT 2 (i own the GAT 1) and your CAT. By any chance did you do CAT pre v CJ GAT2 pre? Or was it a complete replacement of CAT for CJ? Thanks for any feedback. As a longtime CJ fan, always interested to hear how people compare with them with other great names.

LL, generally speaking, CJ is richer in tone, while CAT is much faster and doesn't have the extra fat CJ has. One can roll tubes in the CAT preamp using NOS Telefunkens and Amperex to get a richer tonality (but neither euphonics nor the the bloat). CAT also has the bass of SS without any negatives of SS. I also like the detail resolution of CAT - it's very resolving without being analytical...very nuanced presentation. I have owned both brands in the past. And obviously I am biased.

here's steve hoffman on the cat:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...te-preamplifier-an-oldie-but-a-goodie.348720/

 

[audioguy]

HiTo me the reference when it comes to mid-bass articulation are the Dunelavy-designed speakers, specifically the Duntech Sovereign, Dunleavy, IV,V,VI. THey are surpassed in other ways by some modern day speakers.. Few speakers approach them or surpass them in the critical midbass area.

Like any speaker, the Dunlavy's were not perfect, but I would agree with you on the mid bass. I owned ALL of his speakers at one time or another and I have yet to hear any speaker that does mid-bass better. Above and below that I have heard lots of speakers I like as well or better.

Having heard Marty's system when he lived in Dallas (His system was/is one of the 2 or 3 best 2 channel systems I have ever experienced), I am most surprised by his desire to no longer use any kind of DSP - even if only for frequencies south of, say, 150HZ. Above that, the room and passive room treatment can control. I will be more than interested to see his FR once he gets his new speakers and system/room dialed in.

 

[steve williams]

Hey Steve, do you know what Sagacious Marty has chosen? (not asking you to spill the beans! )

I do