Introducing My System

I'm fascinated you say that a hybrid OTL is close to indistinguishable from one of the most powerful SETs out there.
I get that it's the same designer.
But no-one's ever "confused" (lol) an OTL for a SET before.
Even more so, a hybrid.
I may have misread your comment.

Anyway, you can read my sound impressions of the amps in one of the earlier posts.

 
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We are proudly making you a wonderful pair of Studio Plus. It's of course a product designed by hardcore Apogee freaks with a dedicated team of around 10 people behind it. It's an evolutionary product, not a fixer upper and just like you, I also have some spare Apogees around :)

Between me and the boys in Vietnam we have every Apogee ever made. We also have Graz restored pairs, Henk restored pairs, our own restored pairs and even had some DIS parts.

We love the classics, but the limitations are very obvious and to quote the former technical Project Manager of Apogee Acoustics. "I wish I had access to the materials back in the day like you do now", when we met at Axpona 2023.

Cheers
 
I'm fascinated you say that a hybrid OTL is close to indistinguishable from one of the most powerful SETs out there.
I get that it's the same designer.
But no-one's ever "confused" (lol) an OTL for a SET before.
Even more so, a hybrid.
I had a NAT single ended hybrid (which was also OTL) in the past and while it sounded very interesting, it didn’t sound like a SET or an OTL.
 
Why do you feel you need to go to the Clarysis? Don't the Duettas pretty much get you 95% there as things stand?
Hello Marc,

Please find a place to inspect visually and to run your fingers over a Clarisys Studio. There is just no build quality comparison to an original Apogee.*

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*I am a Clarisys Audio dealer.
 
I had a NAT single ended hybrid (which was also OTL) in the past and while it sounded very interesting, it didn’t sound like a SET or an OTL.
I would agree, but also at this point I don’t know anymore. I am going off of memory when comparing the sound. I never was able to do a direct comparison as I lived without the Magmas for several months due to the move, before finally getting the Symbiosis New.
 
Enjoy mate, looks simply stunning!
 
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Soulution 710 Vs. NAT Symbiosis New on my refurbished Apogee Duettas:

So while undoubtably the tone is amazing with the NAT amps powering the Duettas, I had to “scratch that itch” if you will and try out the Duettas with the Soulution 710 stereo amp. The principal reason being of course to get a reference as to whether or not the NATs are powerful enough to drive the Duettas properly. To that end, the Soulution amp is incredibly stable down to 1 or 2 ohms whereas I’m running the NATs with the the Duettas on the 8 ohm tap — the principal reason being that the NATs sound VASTLY better using the 8 ohm tap instead of the 4 ohm one. Given that the Duettas (at least the original ones according to my memory) measure at around 3.5 ohm suffice to say from a technical standpoint I wanted to hear what proper impedance matching between the amp and the speaker brings to the table.

To get to the point, and in a semi anticlimactic fashion dare I say, the conclusion is that I prefer the tone of NAT (more body and soul to the music), while the Soulution undoubtably brings way more control, bass articulation and a bigger sound stage with better instrument separation.

What’s keeping me very happy about this little experiment is that the imminent arrival of Clarisys Studio Plus will lighten the load on the NATs with its 5 ohm impedance and the much higher sensitivity — roughly around 88db. So in that sense, I am hoping to get the best of both worlds. For full disclosure, initially I thought my NAT speaker cables lacked a few inches to connect them successfully between the Soulution and Duettas so I used some fairly cheapish UPOCC Neotech speaker cables. Those gave a very skewed perception of the 710s tone, and as soon as I managed to connect the NAT cables I got much closer to the Symbiosis New tone. Close but not fully there mind you.

On the other hand, the bass control and the overall grip on the speakers that 710 is displaying is leaps and bounds ahead of what NAT can do with the Duettas at least (mind the impedance match mind you that I spoke about above),

IMG_5714.jpeg

In the next experiment we are bi-amping the Duettas. Running the Soulution 710 on the woofer and the NAT Symbiosis New on the Midrange Tweeter. Stay tuned :)
 
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Soulution 710 Vs. NAT Symbiosis New on my refurbished Apogee Duettas:

So while undoubtably the tone is amazing with the NAT amps powering the Duettas, I had to “scratch that itch” if you will and try out the Duettas with the Soulution 710 stereo amp. The principal reason being of course to get a reference as to whether or not the NATs are powerful enough to drive the Duettas properly. To that end, the Soulution amp is incredibly stable down to 1 or 2 ohms whereas I’m running the NATs with the the Duettas on the 8 ohm tap — the principal reason being that the NATs sound VASTLY better using the 8 ohm tap instead of the 4 ohm one. Given that the Duettas (at least the original ones according to my memory) measure at around 3.5 ohm suffice to say from a technical standpoint I wanted to hear what proper impedance matching between the amp and the speaker brings to the table.

To get to the point, and in a semi anticlimactic fashion dare I say, the conclusion is that I prefer the tone of NAT (more body and soul to the music), while the Soulution undoubtably brings way more control, bass articulation and a bigger sound stage with better instrument separation.

What’s keeping me very happy about this little experiment is that the imminent arrival of Clarisys Studio Plus will lighten the load on the NATs with its 5 ohm impedance and the much higher sensitivity — roughly around 88db. So in that sense, I am hoping to get the best of both worlds. For full disclosure, initially I thought my NAT speaker cables lacked a few inches to connect them successfully between the Soulution and Duettas so I used some fairly cheapish UPOCC Neotech speaker cables. Those gave a very skewed perception of the 710s tone, and as soon as I managed to connect the NAT cables I got much closer to the Symbiosis New tone. Close but not fully there mind you.

On the other hand, the bass control and the overall grip on the speakers that 710 is displaying is leaps and bounds ahead of what NAT can do with the Duettas at least (mind the impedance match mind you that I spoke about above),

View attachment 135184

In the next experiment we are bi-amping the Duettas. Running the Soulution 710 on the woofer and the NAT Symbiosis New on the Midrange Tweeter. Stay tuned :)
I predict that the biamping will not satisfy you. I found with my Apogees that too high damping factor on the amp may have had grip but reduced the bass to kind of a one note thud..all texture and nuance gone.
 
I predict that the biamping will not satisfy you. I found with my Apogees that too high damping factor on the amp may have had grip but reduced the bass to kind of a one note thud..all texture and nuance gone.
I literally haven’t run into a mix and match of amplifiers that I liked for bi amping. The word that comes to mind is “disjointed”. Other than running identical amps for bi amping not a big fan either. That said, I can’t get my hands on another NAT monoblock or another Soulution amp, so we’ll at least get a sense with this… or at the very least have some fun with the experiment. But in general I share your sentiment.
 
The AVM pre and power was much better than the Soulution pre and power on Maggies (though adding Soulution preamp to the AVM amp made it better). The biamped NATs were poor at driving grands, and the Ayon 300w was not as good as the basic Parasound on driving apogee duetta. Henk’s grands with Krell’s we’re by far the best apogee, followed by Christoph’s scintilla with Krell and with Lamm hybrids.

That said, the Soulution preamp works very well with NAT Magma with cone speakers.
 
The Soulution 710 amp is an interesting beast (and probably the only Soulution amp I’d own given the “switch” to switching PSUs with later models. For example, I’ve ran it with Weiss Helios directly and it was probably the shrillest I’ve ever heard my system sound (with Marten Mingus Orchestra). I didn’t like them (enough) in any combination with the Martens.

But with these Duettas (and mind you these are refurbished Duettas and not Duetta Signature — so the voicing is slightly different), it pairs very well with the Trafomatic Lara, and of course the Horizon. I still would like to hear more body in the tone, as I do with NATs — that’s my number one complaint — but the control is truly impressive. There is however no hint whatsoever of harshness, at least with these Duettas. Which personally to me is a major surprise being very familiar with the voicing of Duetta Signature, Caliper and Stage.

These NATs although gorgeous in tone do not have enough control over these Duettas. That’s clear in comparing with Soulution.

In addition, and this is a very big plus, I’ve integrated the Rel 31 like I’ve never integrated a sub before. It literally blends with the main speakers as if it were a single driver. The measurement proves it as well. As far as the tilt of the curve, this is simply how I like to have my house curve. Don’t prefer more bass than this:

IMG_5701.png

BTW, (AND IT TRULY PAINS ME TO SAY THIS), this is without a SINGLE PSI bass trap (I have five now). Literally just a different configuration of speakers and a smart use of a single subwoofer took care of more or less all the nasty modes in the room. No DSP used either.
 
The AVM pre and power was much better than the Soulution pre and power on Maggies (though adding Soulution preamp to the AVM amp made it better). The biamped NATs were poor at driving grands, and the Ayon 300w was not as good as the basic Parasound on driving apogee duetta. Henk’s grands with Krell’s we’re by far the best apogee, followed by Christoph’s scintilla with Krell and with Lamm hybrids.

That said, the Soulution preamp works very well with NAT Magma with cone speakers.
This is valuable input and I appreciate both your “ear” and your experience. Sadly, can’t get all these toys to play with that you mention above. Would be nice though.
 
The AVM pre and power was much better than the Soulution pre and power on Maggies (though adding Soulution preamp to the AVM amp made it better). The biamped NATs were poor at driving grands, and the Ayon 300w was not as good as the basic Parasound on driving apogee duetta. Henk’s grands with Krell’s we’re by far the best apogee, followed by Christoph’s scintilla with Krell and with Lamm hybrids.

That said, the Soulution preamp works very well with NAT Magma with cone speakers.
The worst sounding amp I ever had on my Apogees was a Krell (KSA250). All thud and zero nuance. The best I heard on a Scintilla was the Sphinx Project 16, which could be selected for low impedance use…had a button selection right on the front panel. The Lamm hybrid was ok sounding on the Scintilla but a Classe DR3 (? Not sure exact model but bridged mono Class A) sounded significantly better. Vacuumstate once made a special 1 ohm tube amp that sounded lovely at Christoph’s as well.
Those same Grands you didn’t like with NAT sounded much better without the Apogee active stuff. Previously, they were used Passively like Divas (with upgraded Diva xover…no subs) and NAT 211 based monos and that sounded awesome…I agree that the full active version was underwhelming and I largely blame the inferior Apogee electronics. That same speaker, with subs but still passive on the panels, sounded great also with Sphinx Project 14 mk III amps, an Audio Research active tube xover to the subs and Krell KSA 100 on the subs. Cd was the very nice Sphinx Project 32 cd player at that time.

Btw. Henk’s systems never sounded natural to me…always a bit metallic…both his Fullrange setup and his Grands. Kees Scintilla with Silvaweld preamp (I sold my SWC1000 to him) and Sphinx sounded a lot more natural…as did Stanley’s Scintilla/Classe and some tube pre I don’t remember anymore…it was custom I think.
 
The Soulution 710 amp is an interesting beast (and probably the only Soulution amp I’d own given the “switch” to switching PSUs with later models. For example, I’ve ran it with Weiss Helios directly and it was probably the shrillest I’ve ever heard my system sound (with Marten Mingus Orchestra). I didn’t like them (enough) in any combination with the Martens.

But with these Duettas (and mind you these are refurbished Duettas and not Duetta Signature — so the voicing is slightly different), it pairs very well with the Trafomatic Lara, and of course the Horizon. I still would like to hear more body in the tone, as I do with NATs — that’s my number one complaint — but the control is truly impressive. There is however no hint whatsoever of harshness, at least with these Duettas. Which personally to me is a major surprise being very familiar with the voicing of Duetta Signature, Caliper and Stage.

These NATs although gorgeous in tone do not have enough control over these Duettas. That’s clear in comparing with Soulution.

In addition, and this is a very big plus, I’ve integrated the Rel 31 like I’ve never integrated a sub before. It literally blends with the main speakers as if it were a single driver. The measurement proves it as well. As far as the tilt of the curve, this is simply how I like to have my house curve. Don’t prefer more bass than this:

View attachment 135192

BTW, (AND IT TRULY PAINS ME TO SAY THIS), this is without a SINGLE PSI bass trap (I have five now). Literally just a different configuration of speakers and a smart use of a single subwoofer took care of more or less all the nasty modes in the room. No DSP used either.
Lack of body and tone would be a deal breaker for me…literally the life blood of music. A bit less control is pretty easy to live without…
 
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Btw. Henk’s systems never sounded natural to me…always a bit metallic…both his Fullrange setup and his Grands.
Literally my NUMBER ONE concern with all of the previous Apogee models I’ve owned. That’s why I’m liking these DIS Planar Duettas so much. None of that metallic overtone. But I also feel that a proper passive setup in this day in age will highlight this speakers’ good sides without the downsides that the older amps exhibited hence warranting an active approach — which just poses a whole different set of challenges.
 
Lack of body and tone would be a deal breaker for me…literally the life blood of music. A bit less control is pretty easy to live without…
I know exactly what you mean and pretty much feel the same way. I especially noticed this with the Chasing the Dragon Vivaldi in Venice recording. I just lose that fleeting hint of whatever I “recorded” in my brain as the tone of a classical string orchestra in a cathedral like environment. And I have that with NATs playing with Duettas.

With NATs it just sounds more like the music I remember listening to in La Madeleine in Paris. This millisecond of being there again the first I played the Duettas on NATs is what pulled me back in to planars.
 
I guess I’m trailing off a bit but while we’re on the subject. I am listening to Marcus Miller The Ozell Tapes (Live) and I’d definitely prefer to listen to this on the Soulution than on the NATs. I am not as emotionally connected with what Marcus is doing. I’m am more so listening to the technique and the groove. And for the funky groove I’d prefer the Soulution.

BUT, when I’m gauging the level of emotional connectedness to the music, really, the violin is an instrument that does not lie. A cello does not lie. A string orchestra in a large hall does not lie.

Meaning, I am so much more sensitive to not hearing these string instruments right than any other form of “electronic” music. Even the voices don’t kill the suspension of disbelief for me as much as a poorly reproduced violin does.

Consequently, NAT and Duettas “almost don’t lie to me.” They are able to create a suspension of disbelief with the instruments I am most sensitive to. Even if it’s fleeting, it’s enough for me to make this pursuit worthwhile.

What do I prefer to play? Easy. I can sit behind my drums and jam to Marcus Miller grooves for hours on end. But that’s a whole different ballgame.
 
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I guess I’m trailing off a bit but while we’re on the subject. I am listening to Marcus Miller The Ozell Tapes (Live) and I’d definitely prefer to listen to this on the Soulution than on the NATs. I am not as emotionally connected with what Marcus is doing. I’m am more so listening to the technique and the groove. And for the funky groove I’d prefer the Soulution.

BUT, when I’m gauging the level of emotional connectedness to the music, really, the violin is an instrument that does not lie. A cello does not lie. A string orchestra in a large hall does not lie.

Meaning, I am so much more sensitive to not hearing these string instruments right than any other form of “electronic” music. Even the voices don’t kill the suspension of disbelief for me as much as a poorly reproduced violin does.

Consequently, NAT and Duettas “almost don’t lie to me.” They are able to create a suspension of disbelief with the instruments I am most sensitive to. Even if it’s fleeting, it’s enough for me to make this pursuit worthwhile.

What do I prefer to play? Easy. I can sit behind my drums and jam to Marcus Miller grooves for hours on end. But that’s a whole different ballgame.
It’s interesting you mention violin because my ex, who is a competition winning violinist and konzertmeisterin for an orchestra in Germany, loved my Caliper Signatures…until I got a pair of Acoustat 1+1 with medallion transformers and I upgraded the passive parts…those sounded even more realistic with violin…so much so that she wanted to buy them from me when we split up.

To this day nothing I have heard does bass better than a huge Acoustat Spectra 4400 full range electrostat…it made the deepest, tightest, coherent and tonally correct bass…similar sized Apogee panels like the Diva and Fullrsnge couldn’t do what I heard my big Acouststs do. However, their weakness was the upper frequencies, which is why I only used them as subs, crossed at 80 hz to a pair of Acoustat Spectra 2200s, which were very transparent…more so than the 1+1s even.
 
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These are the brand new NAT Symbiosis New. Comparably similar sound to Magmas but with way less heat disippation. So happy with the sound AND ergonomics.

Also, Lara is here temporarily until my very dear (and near to my heart) Tara 30A joins the fold :)

Lara is a fantastic preamp by the way. Stellar build and fantastic signal to noise ratio resulting in extraordinary deliniation of elements on the sound stage as well as its size — tremendeous match with the Apogees, but the slight impendance mismatch with the amps means that Tara will do wonders once it arrives.
Uros
I'm having fun watch you explore your new options. I'm particularly interested to see what you think of the Tara 30A. But since you like the NAT Symbiosis, I'm curious if you are also considering the NAT Magnetostat SE preamp? The Tara 30A and NAT Magnetostat appear to be two top tier tube/transformer-based preamps made in Serbia! Who's going to be able to check them out and compare them reliably for us, if not you? :)
Marty
 
Uros
I'm having fun watch you explore your new options. I'm particularly interested to see what you think of the Tara 30A. But since you like the NAT Symbiosis, I'm curious if you are also considering the NAT Magnetostat SE preamp? The Tara 30A and NAT Magnetostat appear to be two top tier tube/transformer-based preamps made in Serbia! Who's going to be able to check them out and compare them reliably for us, if not you? :)
Marty
Hey Marty!

I spoke to Saša not two days ago. My Tara 30A is painted, all the parts assembled and now the guys need to come back from vacation to put it all together! So we’re getting close!

As it so happens by the way, I own the NAT Magnetostat SE preamp and have lived with several iterations of it that Dejan was continually upgrading for me for years. Ultimately, it gave way to Trafomatic Lara.

Why?

First up, Magnetostat SE is in purely technical terms a better match (no surprises there) with the NAT Symbiosis New amps. The principal reason being that the amps have an incredibly low input Z of 2,5k Ohms so they require a preamp with very low output impedance. Magnetostat in SE mode has the output Z of roughly around 50 ohms. This is great. Should provide more dynamics and higher extension in both lows and highs with the amps.*

This preamp literally breathes life into any solid state gear I’ve tried/owned. It did so with the D’Agostino Momentums as effectively as it did with the Soulution 710, Pass Labs or any number of other amps I’ve either listened to or tried it with.

But, there are drawbacks. The design itself feels overly complicated to me. The tiny tubes are soldered to the output board (autobias was introduced in later revisions, and they had a habit of getting out of whack), the controls are digital and the preamp is battery powered. In an attempt to achieve the best possible tone, I think Dejan went a bit overboard in his attempts. So the plus side of breathing life into solid state gear is also a drawback as it ultimately colors the sound and makes it slightly more veiled than I’d like my preamp to sound. Also, all the drawbacks of battery powered gear apply.

In stark contrast to that, Trafomatic’s Lara is a relatively simple design, a two box solution mind you, but the devil is in the details — the wiring they use, of course the transformers, the careful impedance matching, etc.

The end result is a slightly less “tubey” sound, but with more clarity, delineation of instruments and voices as well as a bigger sound stage.

Don’t get me wrong, both preamps are good — but Lara’s build quality, combined with (to me) superior looks as well as the sound signature I want to get out of a preamp made me switch to it and never look back. Lara is quite simply a more mature and well rounded hi fi product.

Consequently, Tara 30A (aside from the steep price jump) is a no brainer. Technically it’s better matched with the NAT amps (output Z of a mere 25 ohms), it’s got DHT tubes (still miss my WE 300B from the Lampi Golden Gate 2); it’s just better in every way. And A LOT more expensive … sigh. In addition, Saša will add some custom output gain options for my Tara 30A which should offer better gain matching with my gear. Tremendously important to have a good gain structure when mixing and matching components so that’s a very nice gesture from Saša.

That said, I treat Tara 30A as the “end game” pre. Oh and btw, I’ve tried running Horizon as the preamp for the NAT Symbiosis New. While Horizon was able to sound more articulate and in many ways better with NAT Magma Evos as compared to running them with Magnetostat SE, the situation is fully reversed with Symbiosis New (think input Z). Horizon as a pre sounds like crap. Inserting Lara into the signal path literally does wonders. So I can only imagine what Tara 30A will do.

*In practice, I don’t hear that though when comparing with Trafomatic Lara.
 
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