I believe you’re correct on the “indirectly heated” part of the triode requirement. I run these in my “pentode” TRP3 everyday of the week. I believe the difference is in the circuit itself- though I honestly can’t say with utmost assurance the Poseidon is incapable of running a pentode. That would be a question for the Lampizator engineers.
Introducing the LampizatOr Poseidon DAC
- Thread starter Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus
- Start date
So you're indicating that the Poseidon is inferior due to it's lack of magic/superior sonics due to it's lack of directly heated 300b/PX4 tubes, regardless of their triode mode pentodes. I've only heard the Horizon & Poseidon so I suppose I don't know what I'm missing.
The Poseidon can use the 6J5 (or equivalent) indirectly heated triodes but can also use 6V6 pentode tubes (in triode mode) due to their common base layout, without requiring the need for an adapter.
The Atlantic can use a variety of pentode tubes (in triode mode) but since these tubes also include the 6V6, it can also use the aforementioned 6J5 triodes directly (without the need for an adapter).
All differences between individual tubes, whether pentode vs triode or directly heated vs indirectly heated can of course end up to be a matter of individual preference, but particularly in Lampis the popular point that "a really good design transcends its topology" is sort of self proven...
(BTW, no affiliation whatsoever with Lampizator, just a fan...)
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DHTs are nice and warm, dense, rich and fuzzy, which is great if that's your goal and can live with the tradeoffs...and if you can't live with the tradeoff, there is the "dark magic lacking" Poseidon and Horizon (or MSB or, or, or...
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I only listen to jazz and folk on my system which would lend itself to such a musical presentation for sure.DHTs are nice and warm, dense, rich and fuzzy, which is great if that's your goal and can live with the tradeoffs...and if you can't live with the tradeoff, there is the "dark magic lacking" Poseidon and Horizon (or MSB or, or, or...
I have had a similar experience with amps. I have a fabulous pair of KT88 amps that I loved. Only in comparison to my DHT Atma-sphere amps do I notice what the pentode amps lack. That organic and "oozing" or "liquid"sound, hard to explain.
I listen to folk, Classical from soloist vocal/instrumental to Mahler, Yello electronica, Led Zeppelin (my wife's preference) to combo Jazz to big band Jazz and Rock. In other words, everything that requires the best rhythm/pacing, tonality, dynamics as well as the benefits of the Von Schweikert high end speakers (my VR9 SE Mk2 upgraded) dispersion and frequency range. So, maybe the Poseidon and Horizon aren't perfect in liquid and full bodied sound but they achieve everything else I desire. If the music has imperfect timing, forget it. Music begins with rhythm even if it is Bartok or Cage. For 2 decades I had stat speakers and their timing was great (full range stats) but they were inadequate in so many other ways. Maybe some new planars would fill the bill but I'm tapped out.
DHTs are nice and warm, dense, rich and fuzzy, which is great if that's your goal and can live with the tradeoffs...and if you can't live with the tradeoff, there is the "dark magic lacking" Poseidon and Horizon (or MSB or, or, or...
While this is true of some DHT's, there are also plenty of DHT's that don't sound warm and fuzzy at all. In fact, some are the polar opposite of that sonic description.
But, I think the point here isn't whether Poseidon or Pacific 2 is superior, both are equals with different appealing factors (whereas Horizon is a clear step above both the Poseidon and Pacific). The tubes that are used have a significant impact on sonics in the Pacific. I assume this is also going to be the case with Poseidon, as it is with Horizon.
The nice thing is, with our Lampi DAC's, we can all experiment and tweak to find our sound using different tubes, particularly when you bring in tube adapters to the party.
I have always been a fan of tube amps as tubes seem to inject some kind of magic into the sound signature which - in my ears - is more authentic sounding than what solid state amps do (of course not all amps are the same). Now, 300B SET amps have even more of this tube magic going on than - let´s say - a KT88 push-pull design. But you need very selected, efficient speakers or otherwise there are too many drawbacks with a SET/DHT amp, as they are limited in power and control. They are simply not great for all kinds of music (and my musical taste is very broad).
As I am not a fan of horn designs, I am asking myself for years: How to inject as much tube magic into my system as possible, without suffering from the drawbacks? One answer could be to move the tubes more to the front of the chain - not in the poweramp output (where power and control really matters) but to the preamp or even to the DAC. Now the question is, whether DHTs can still apply the same magic in a DAC like they do in a power stage? And do they still inject some drawbacks there or are they fine as they are not pushed to any limits at all in a DAC?
Unfortuantely, I have never had the chande to listen to a DAC with DHTs. Could anybody comment on this idea of moving tubes to the front of the chain and whether they are still able to do their magic, when combined with SS or even class D in the power amp? Is it comparable in any form?
@Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus
Do you still see drawbacks with DHTs in DACs? Or what is the reasoning behind not using them in your new designs like Poseidon?
As I am not a fan of horn designs, I am asking myself for years: How to inject as much tube magic into my system as possible, without suffering from the drawbacks? One answer could be to move the tubes more to the front of the chain - not in the poweramp output (where power and control really matters) but to the preamp or even to the DAC. Now the question is, whether DHTs can still apply the same magic in a DAC like they do in a power stage? And do they still inject some drawbacks there or are they fine as they are not pushed to any limits at all in a DAC?
Unfortuantely, I have never had the chande to listen to a DAC with DHTs. Could anybody comment on this idea of moving tubes to the front of the chain and whether they are still able to do their magic, when combined with SS or even class D in the power amp? Is it comparable in any form?
@Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus
Do you still see drawbacks with DHTs in DACs? Or what is the reasoning behind not using them in your new designs like Poseidon?
Well, the use of more common and lesser cost tubes in a new design was the goal of Lampizator in the Horizon and Poseidon. 300Bs can be very expensive. The Poseidon was initially designed as a preamp, the Neptune with a choice of DAC or Phono. So, it is different from the prior DAC designs for a reason.
Totally agree.
Bizarrely some 300B tubes I once tried, on the 5v heater, sounded solid state with super fast bass but a lack of warmth. Go figure!
I've found different heater settings making sonic changes with the same tube. For example, running Philips PT35 on the 45 heater setting, then changing to 242 heater setting, resulted in clearly audible sonic changes. Lucky for us, we have multiple heater settings to experiment.
But how do you "know" that a given heater setting is NOT frying your precious tubes over (maybe even) a short time?
The main effect of messing with the heater voltage on sonics is really output level rather than a huge change in character provided you are somewhere near the target voltage. I always have a voltmeter plugged into my heater(s) and run tubes from 2.5V to 7V with a six position selector plus fine control via potentiometers.But how do you "know" that a given heater setting is NOT frying your precious tubes over (maybe even) a short time?
Best run to spec to be honest for peace of mind, longevity and generally the best sonic performance.
Yeah, but when you add up # of tubes in Horizon and Poseidon the cost adds up quickly. I currently have a se gg2 which I am happy with and using 01a tubes.
I am just glad that as Lampizator owners we have options to pick dacs that are within our budget with tube components that meet our requirement. I also, like the option that upgrades an available for our older dacs. Mine started life as big 7.
thats bcause the 300b at the end of the day is a flawed tube in many respects. ppl go gaga over it but there are much better sounding tubes than a 300b
I have previously enjoyed 01A in my Acuhorn on the 5v heater and they were stunning but the TJF PX4 mesh is even better. I imagine you can get a quad for around $1k USD.
I also found the 01A very microphonic given their age.
Only one way to know how I'd think about the difference between the two and that's with both of them at home in my system for a while.
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