Is Audiophilia a Dying Hobby or Just in Need of a Tune-Up?

[Rensselaer]

Hardly. I buy less than 200 gallons of gasoline per year. Retired. Operate my cars maybe 3 times per week. Thanks to Covid didn’t do the traveling we planned to do. Now I don’t care. Rather listen to music.

520 watts to drive 91db sens speakers? Kind of excessive don’t you think? Like revving up your twin-turbos and putting your foot down to feel the power in the seat of your pants, being conscious of your own footprint doesn’t come into it.

 

[TonyW]

520 watts to drive 91db sens speakers? Kind of excessive don’t you think? Like revving up your twin-turbos and putting your foot down to feel the power in the seat of your pants, being conscious of your own footprint doesn’t come into it.

And loving it.

 

[Rensselaer]

And loving it.

Great Uhura, glad you’re loving it. Now please allow those of us who have evolved in a different direction to be happy in our choices as well.

 

[bonzo75]

People so misunderstand loudness when they think of only how loud the louder parts play and 80db of speaker sensitivity + 20db of amp power can get you 100db.

 

[Ampexed]

I don’t disagree about SET Amps. For certain types of music nothing is finer. I need something that can fill in a wider range of music.

The ability of SET amps to drive a speaker, even to insane SPLs has less to do with the available watts, and everything to do with the sensitivity of the speakers. My horns have 107dB sensitivity and I guarantee you that I can plaster you against the back wall with the lowly 8 watt SET. Your 91dB/w speakers are medium sensitivity and unsuited for an SET, but still hundreds of watts are simply being wasted.

Unless the current is being used by the speaker, it doesn't matter whether you have 50w or 5000w laying in waiting. A speaker only uses what it needs and doesn't care about the number of watts an amplifier has as long as it has enough watts to drive the speaker to a given SPL. With very difficult to drive speakers, current capability of an amplifier can matter, but your speakers aren't those. You need a good 100w amp and be done with it.

 

[TonyW]

That’s what I was saying, a Horn speaker is like using leverage to produce high SPL versus brute force to move an inefficient cone speaker.

 

[Lagonda]

Great Uhura, glad you’re loving it. Now please allow those of us who have evolved in a different direction to be happy in our choices as well.

Evolved ? Sounds more like regressed when it comes to audio. No you will never be young again no matter how much of the equipment from the 50's you buy

 

[AudioHR]

You drank the Cool Aid. There is nothing wrong with the bass from my Altec’s. There is no audible advantage to lower impedance speakers (quite the opposite).

The only issue with high-sens vintage speakers was their size, and that fault was probably not an issue until manufacturers started claiming it was. Manufacturers made smaller speaker arrays to meet the created need. The smaller speakers created a problem however, they were inefficient and needed much more power to push as much air.

Every three db loss in sensitivity requires twice the power to get the same volume. If your new smaller speakers have 88 db sens (won’t go into ohms yet) and the speakers they replace 104db (my Altec’s compression drivers), the power of the amplification must be doubled five times. So if I was listening to my Altec’s with a 7 watt class A 300B SET amplifier then to drive the new speakers to the same volume I will need an amplifier with an output of 225 watts.

Power with valves is expensive, transistor (semiconductor) amplification is much cheaper (albeit less real-sounding). But then there is the impedance issue. Many of the new speakers drop in impedance at different frequencies, some down to two ohms (or less, remember Apogee). Although the best speakers for SET’s have a fairly flat impedance curve, valves can handle impedance changes in those that don’t without too much trouble.

Semiconductors can’t. Each halving of the speakers’ impedance causes the transistor amplifier to double its power output. The speaker impedance drops from 8 ohms to 4 ohms and the 225 watt transistor amplifier suddenly throws out 450 watts. Dropping to 2 ohms, 900 watts! That is why so many transistor amps blew up. Manufacturers designed more rugged high power amplifiers to meet the need, but even Krells blew from time to time (Apogee).

The point Tao made (and I fully support) is that many of us have returned to triodes and horns after a lifetime of upgrades through the changes in audio that occurred since the 50’s, including low sensitity speakers and megawatt transistor amps, digitally synthesised music, etc. etc. We are well aware that playing records on an old Gerrard 301 through SETs and vintage horns is not without issues , it is just that we prefer the sound from such over what else has come. You can argue your points on why you don’t agree (yet), but it makes no sense to those of us who have bought into and experienced it all and in the end decided which we prefer (regardless of the “shortcomings”).

I belong to this club too as I have done exactly what you have described, I couldn't be any happier with my back to the future approach! While I still like to stay current and keep a foot in the digital world my preference is definitely vinyl.

I wish the way forward was clearer. Your previous point on providing the opportunity for people to experience better sound reproduction is one I have expressed too. It would be nice if it were that simple but even our present audiophile community is conflicted on what sound good.

I think as humans we are predisposed to enjoy music. That is what provides the reason for our industry which clearly includes earbuds and IPhones whether audiophiles agree or not. It is the music of all generations past and present that will move us forward. As an audiophile I would like to see music reproduction of higher fidelity (not HiFi) be part of that evolution/revolution!

 

[bonzo75]

No you will never be young again no matter how much of the equipment from the 50's you buy

The only way to do that is buy boom boom speakers with bam bam amps and stream Taylor Swift

 

[Al M.]

The only way to do that is buy boom boom speakers with bam bam amps and stream Taylor Swift

People who stream Taylor Swift do it over headphones.

 

[AudioHR]

People who stream Taylor Swift do it over headphones.

Maybe . But it's quite the event when she comes to town, the swifties are just dying to hear her live! Apparently no headphones required to really appreciate her sound!

 

[PeterA]

Romanticizing past gear and simpler times can leave a big blind spot over the shortcomings of classic gear. While the midrange sounded great on those old high efficiency, SET powered speakers let’s not forget about the dark highs and tepid bass. The whole point of the 70s was SS amplification and powerful bass to “feel” the beat. Speaker impedance fell from the classic 16 Ohms to 8 Ohms and eventually to 4 Ohms giving the SS gear the advantage. But tube amplifier designers stepped up to the challenge. We have more fantastic sounding amplifier options today than ever. And what I remember of the 80s is a lot of hifi had awful highs that felt like they were drilling a hole in my head- even with vinyl.

Sure, high efficiency horn speakers can sound great but need a ballroom sized room to fit all the pieces if you want something more than weak bass. That was the point of lower efficiency speakers- a smaller package to fit into most people’s living rooms and still get that bass for the beat.

High powered subwoofers are another option to add to those magical panels or moderately size horns but the added complexity of set up requires a skilled and trained technician to first, find the right subs and second, get them properly set up and integrated into the system for that particular room. That is no simple task to be left to the general layperson. Most will give up in frustration.

Good bass takes power- either brute force with high powered amps or through the leverage of large, very large horns. Great highs requires great gear and proper room design.

If reproducing music was easy everyone would be into hifi.

I disagree with your generalizations. I would like a bigger room for my corner horn speakers, but they sound excellent in the room I’ve got. The mid range is glorious, but so are the highs and the lows. The system is very well balanced, and the bass quality and impact is much better than my former contemporary cone speakers with big solid-state amps. And even though the speakers are fairly big, they fit into the corners and are not very intrusive in the room.

Perhaps the issues you describe with vintage speakers or would you experience with whatever you heard, but that does not mean that all vintage speakers exhibit those qualities. Some are truly superb and are as good or better than much of what is available today.

I’m not sure whether or not the hobby is dying, but everything can use a bit of a tuneup. I’ve often wondered what some of the fancy new speakers with the new materials would sound like if they were a lot more efficient. Of course they would likely be bigger or have some other design changes.

 

[TonyW]

I disagree with your generalizations. I would like a bigger room for my corner horn speakers, but they sound excellent in the room I’ve got. The mid range is glorious, but so are the highs and the lows. The system is very well balanced, and the bass quality and impact is much better than my former contemporary cone speakers with big solid-state amps. And even though the speakers are fairly big, they fit into the corners and are not very intrusive in the room.

Perhaps the issues you describe with vintage speakers or would you experience with whatever you heard, but that does not mean that all vintage speakers exhibit those qualities. Some are truly superb and are as good or better than much of what is available today.

I’m not sure whether or not the hobby is dying, but everything can use a bit of a tuneup. I’ve often wondered what some of the fancy new speakers with the new materials would sound like if they were a lot more efficient. Of course they would likely be bigger or have some other design changes.

Excellent. One thing I want to ask you about is the soundstage and imaging. It’s been a while since I have heard horns Iike that. I don’t remember much about the imaging. Is it big and spacey with a 3D soundstage or more like a 2D image. Of course, source and electronics play a large part as well.

And I had in my mind some of those incredibly large horns- massive sized for bass reproduction.

 

[PeterA]

Maybe . But it's quite the event when she comes to town, the swifties are just dying to hear her live! Apparently no headphones required to really appreciate her sound!

I always assumed that it is as much about seeing her live as it is about hearing her live. If it were just about the music, she wouldn’t need all the costume changes and backup dancers and pyrotechnics. It must be fabulous.

 

[PeterA]

Excellent. One thing I want to ask you about is the soundstage and imaging. It’s been a while since I have heard horns Iike that. I don’t remember much about the imaging. Is it big and spacey with a 3D soundstage or more like a 2D image. Of course, source and electronics play a large part as well.

And I had in my mind some of those incredibly large horns- massive sized for bass reproduction.

Well, first off, my horns have an open back so the walls of the room room become the flange of the horn. Extension goes down to about 30 Hz in my room.

The sound stage is huge compared to my old Magico and solid state system. The entire front wall for orchestra music, big band, and choral. Jazz Trios and string Quartet or solo piano are of course smaller in scale, but the sound is still very expensive and room filling.

Imaging is very natural, unlike what I was used to before which was slightly outlined and pinpoint until I oriented my speakers straight ahead and opened up the sound for a more natural presentation. The location of various instruments on the sound stage is very precise and layered and separated, but I do not “see“ images of the musicians. Just the locations of the origins of the sounds like when listening to live music. From these locations energy and sound expand rapidly into the room. Imaging is more about scale and location as it is with live music.

Yes, the rest of the system matters for all of this. The quality and impact of the bass depends a lot on which cartridge I use as does extension and overall resolution. There is nothing that is flat or two dimensional about the presentation in my room.

Now I have not had other corner horn speakers here for comparison, and I’ve only really heard six or seven good vintage speaker systems in various settings.

 

[gleeds]

I agree the challenge of passing on our hobby and passion to the next generation is a daunting task. In the next few weeks, we'll be publishing an exciting article that will be featured here and elsewhere across the performance audio community.

**The Next Generation of High-End Audio Designers**

This piece will shine a light on innovative designers who are creating remarkable high-end audio systems at all price points. Among them are some of today's leading talents, including Mads Buchartd, Nemanja Cokic, Angus Leung, and Tetsuaki Aoyagi, also known as Aki San of DS Audio in their thirties. The aim is to illustrate that the energy and passion for great audio design is alive and well among young innovators charting new territory.

While we may not expect renowned designers like Dan D'Agostino, Jeff Nelson, or Carl Marchisotto to focus their energies on cultivating the next generation of audiophiles, I am confident that these younger business owners will step up to the plate. We will also publish a parallel piece highlighting vibrant young high-end audio retailers, like Shawn Matthews of New Life Audio and Colin King of Gestalt, both in their thirties, who are infusing the market with fresh ideas and remarkable passion. Additionally, we will look at emerging reviewers who are making their mark in this space.

In conclusion, it’s crucial for us to support the next generation—both as consumers and industry members. Giving back in a hobby and profession that has brought us so much joy is we can all get behind.

 

[TonyW]

Well, first off, my horns have an open back so the walls of the room room become the flange of the horn. Extension goes down to about 30 Hz in my room.

The sound stage is huge compared to my old Magico and solid state system. The entire front wall for orchestra music, big band, and choral. Jazz Trios and string Quartet or solo piano are of course smaller in scale, but the sound is still very expensive and room filling.

Imaging is very natural, unlike what I was used to before which was slightly outlined and pinpoint until I oriented my speakers straight ahead and opened up the sound for a more natural presentation. The location of various instruments on the sound stage is very precise and layered and separated, but I do not “see“ images of the musicians. Just the locations of the origins of the sounds like when listening to live music. From these locations energy and sound expand rapidly into the room. Imaging is more about scale and location as it is with live music.

Yes, the rest of the system matters for all of this. The quality and impact of the bass depends a lot on which cartridge I use as does extension and overall resolution. There is nothing that is flat or two dimensional about the presentation in my room.

Now I have not had other corner horn speakers here for comparison, and I’ve only really heard six or seven good vintage speaker systems in various settings.

Cool. I wondered about the imaging with the speakers parked in the corners. Of course those are designed for corners. Super nice setup. I knew you had tubes in the chain right away when you talked about pinpoint images in the past. I have heard that before in all SS setups. Startling clear pinpoint images but hyper-realistic. Tubes- be it preamp, amp or both seem to add body to the images with a more natural soundstage. I feel that way too. Dan D’Augustino SS preamps/amps are an exception- I’ll say that at least was my perception.

One cool thing I noticed one day listening to my system is the electric guitar on a blues album sounded just like the guitar amp was sitting on the floor to one side near the back.

 

[gleeds]

Headphones seem to be a bit of a gateway, as the CAN-JAMs are filled with young people. But I don't know what the conversion rate is of people who start with headphones and then progress to loudspeaker-based high-end systems.

Overall I'm pessimistic as the Boomers die out. But it could be worse. Amateur ("ham") radio makes high-end audio look like a growing, vibrant hobby.

Ron, this is likely the number one gateway audience. All over it!

 

[Al M.]

I always assumed that it is as much about seeing her live as it is about hearing her live. If it were just about the music, she wouldn’t need all the costume changes and backup dancers and pyrotechnics. It must be fabulous.

I don't see why there would be a negative correlation between elaborate staging and importance and quality of music.

Just look at Pink Floyd and Queen, for example.

 

[TonyW]

I saw Pink Floyd in concert. 1988, Raleigh, NC. Outdoors. Show was magnificent. Lots of lasers and a big airplane crashed into the stage (Not a real one). They knew how to put on a show. That was the year I got my first ARC Preamp.