Is criticism to be frowned upon?

[Wonner Naus]

If it is factual, brings learning to the overall community if not the person being addressed.

That can't be done with civil constructive criticism? How does being harsh benefit? Isn't it the harshness or worse that causes discourse to escalate out of control?

 

[Andre Marc]

When you see rudeness you report the post. You do not take matters in your own hands and go to two in whatever emotional manner you see fit. Doing so violates our founding principals:

"6. Please do not attempt to moderate the forum on your own. If you see objectionable posts, please report them. We will deal with them. Above all, focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it."

This system works because we can view the situation without the emotional stake you have in it. There is wisdom in it and hence the reason it is part of the TOS of many forums. Make up your own rules and we have chaos and unfriendly forum.

totally agree.

however, I have seen countless posts with posters acting as pseudo moderators. with no sanction.

 

[Andre Marc]

That can't be done with civil constructive criticism? How does being harsh benefit? Isn't it the harshness or worse that causes discourse to escalate out of control?

this is exactly correct. this is supposed to be a COMMUNITY. How does rude, and harsh criticism help maintain a sense of community?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I hope he doesn't mind my directness but Mike is almost an entirely different person when you meet him than in forums. I am shocked that you have met him but don't see that difference. Certainly speaking for myself, the manner in which speaks to me here is completely different than when we meet face to face.

Amir,

I invited you to lunch once to try and resolve our differences, which were and are considerable. we failed in that effort.

you don't know me.

 

[Andre Marc]

Amir,

I invited you to lunch once to try and resolve our differences, which were and are considerable. we failed in that effort.

you don't know me.

I would like Amir to answer my question. His comment was personal, and IMO, demands further explanation. I also feel it was unfair to you.

 

[Andre Marc]

I hope he doesn't mind my directness but Mike is almost an entirely different person when you meet him than in forums. I am shocked that you have met him but don't see that difference. Certainly speaking for myself, the manner in which speaks to me here is completely different than when we meet face to face.

But yes, I absolutely believe in what he says there about conducting ourselves as we would in person. If you don't curse in public, why do you do it here? If you don't insult a person to their face, addressing them directly, why do you do it here?

On AVS Forum people sent me death threats, reported me to my boss (Sr. VP of the entire Windows division), had reporters chase me on what I had said, made racist remarks, wishes that I get fired, etc. Yet, I remained calm and endured through.

We created this forum to be free of such things but while members have not gone this far, they certainly are way past the point that I wish they would. So on this front, use of profanity, directly insulting members as people, etc. is not protected speech in our forum. Any more than it is to be invited to someone's house and after finding out they are from the opposite political party, try to insult them in their face with every curse word you learned in school.

And how is that justified? Oh, they said something about audio you disagree with? Are you kidding me? Some have taken it as far as complaining about the threads that they are not a party to! They like to see those silenced too.

Back to Ack's post, I am will put it in this context. I live my life on principals. Some I have learned the hard way but many have been created by people with far more wisdom than me. Such is the case with our US founding fathers. As an American, I rely on freedom of speech as one of those principals. Over the life of this forum, each camp in audio has taken turns attempting to tailor the forum to their interest. We have resisted that and in my case, strongly so. No forum that I am a part of will attempt to censor certain members views just because some other people don't like them personally or don't have emotional maturity to ignore what people say that they disagree with. And certain can't justify being insulting and mean spirited towards the individual because they have a different view about audio.

Profanities need to stop. Protests over sharing of information needs to stop. Criticism is good. It makes you think twice as to whether your ideas are right. And in my case, often sends me to go and learn more. Friendliness, as much as possible, should be practiced around here. Respect your hosts who have to manage through all of this without pay or compensation. And oh yes act like you would do in person....

Can you please clarify your post about Mike. 2nd request. It is unfair to him as it leaves your comment open to speculation.

 

[treitz3]

Hello all. Here is my take. Criticism is good and can be healthy when sharing ideas. I personally welcome it. With that said, I also think that if you criticize something, say it once and then STOP. Unless someone asks you a direct question, there is no need to keep repeating yourself 10 different ways.

Tom

 

[amirm]

That can't be done with civil constructive criticism?

You are asking a superb question. What I am seeing here and now in the forum is that any data that is presented that is considered negative to someone's positive view of some object, is considered "harsh" "rude" "presumptuous," etc. In that case I say the criticism is not harsh. The person is just using theatrics as a debating tool. In which case, the data stands and should be presented as I mentioned.

Even outside of that, I don't think we need to have an obligation to make every post "constructive." We are not critiquing the person. We are critiquing the piece of hardware. Members should have enough emotional maturity to consider that and not think they were assaulted personally and hence look for constructivism there.

Now, this is easier said than done . Especially if we are talking about something the person has bought. But it is a skill to be learned if you want to be in forums and not have a belly ache over what is being discussed. Learn to develop tolerance to such comments and not let it bother you so deeply.

Now where I do draw the line and strongly so if the harshness is directed toward a person, not the object. The moment you start to "go after" a person withe vengeance, then yes, you have absolutely done the wrong thing, are harsh and without value to anyone. After all, who learns anything from someone calling another member stupid?

How does being harsh benefit? Isn't it the harshness or worse that causes discourse to escalate out of control?

We have tools to deal with escalation. It is called reporting a post and letting a jury of us from different camps in audio deal with it. And can be almost entirely avoided if everyone focuses on the equipment being discussed, and not the person.

BTW, sense of humor helps too . I hope more people would use this tool. Don't react the way the person wants you to react. If they are trying to make you angry, show that you can have fun with it and therefore, that tool is not effective on you.

This brings me to one of those other principals I live by: you cannot change a group of people. What you can change is yourself. In every request or demand you have of membership, think of what you could do different to ease the pain on you. One simple thing is to take a break from a thread. Go listen to some music. Instead if you stay there and fight tooth and nail, don't come to me and say "the forum has become so negative!" Well, heck, you had the choice to avoid the negative. Yet you participated and now complain? Do your part to ease the pain.

 

[amirm]

Amir,

I invited you to lunch once to try and resolve our differences, which were and are considerable. we failed in that effort.

you don't know me.

I don't think any members know you Mike. Your did not say anything people knowing you. You said people should act the same way they do face to face. I am observing for myself that the person I found when we had lunch and in previous face to face meeting, is a far different one than I see in the forum. You can't possibly disagree with my impression here because that is the principal you mentioned. You can't measure it on how you see the situation. That would exclude me out of the equation .

The lunch I thought had superb value and I am saddened to think you consider it a failure. Another observation that what you say here is different than the person I met at lunch. We discussed a lot of topics, and I every enjoyed every one of them.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I don't think any members know you Mike. Your did not say anything people knowing you. You said people should act the same way they do face to face. I am observing for myself that the person I found when we had lunch and in previous face to face meeting, is a far different one than I see in the forum. You can't possibly disagree with my impression here because that is the principal you mentioned. You can't measure it on how you see the situation. That would exclude me out of the equation .

The lunch I thought had superb value and I am saddened to think you consider it a failure. Another observation that what you say here is different than the person I met at lunch. We discussed a lot of topics, and I every enjoyed every one of them.

I won't get into any characterizations of our conversation. it was private.

the failure is simply what resulted from that conversation which was nothing.

 

[amirm]

Can you please clarify your post about Mike. 2nd request. It is unfair to him as it leaves your comment open to speculation.

I don't know which one is the second one. This is the rest of the paragraph:

"if you go to an audio show, or local audio club meeting, or visit someone's home.......and a new product is being presented, how would that typically go? what would you say to someone who was talking about it? would you start out skeptical and look for flaws, and make a strong case for those perceived issues, or would you attempt to connect with it and understand it first? would common courtesy inhibit any initial strong criticism? "

 

[Andre Marc]

I won't get into any characterizations of our conversation. it was private.

the failure is simply what resulted from that conversation which was nothing.

Yes, and that private conversation should never have been mentioned here IMO.

 

[Andre Marc]

I don't know which one is the second one. This is the rest of the paragraph:

"if you go to an audio show, or local audio club meeting, or visit someone's home.......and a new product is being presented, how would that typically go? what would you say to someone who was talking about it? would you start out skeptical and look for flaws, and make a strong case for those perceived issues, or would you attempt to connect with it and understand it first? would common courtesy inhibit any initial strong criticism? "

My question was, for the third time..how was Mike different in person than on the forum. You posted it, you are obligated to explain how he is different.
There is no wiggle room here, I think it is unfair unless you qualify your statements with detail.

 

[amirm]

I won't get into any characterizations of our conversation. it was private.

Why not? I will characterize it other the one exception that it was very friendly. Nothing remotely close to our interactions in the forum.

the failure is simply what resulted from that conversation which was nothing.

Wasn't nothing at all. To other posts, is this constructive? Did you get to know me? We are your host here. If you went to some booth at the show as you did, would pick one of the person there and repeatedly make them look like the bad guy in front of everyone else?

Mike, I would love for you to follow what you have written. Would you do that for the next few days and give us permission to point out when you deviate?

 

[Wonner Naus]

This thread seems to have veered off-topic and gotten entirely too personal.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry for the harsh criticism.

 

[Andre Marc]

This thread seems to have veered off-topic and gotten entirely too personal.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry for the harsh criticism.

you are entirely correct.

 

[treitz3]

Gentlemen, this thread is getting too personal. Please take your personal conversations offline and get back to the topic of the thread.

Tom

 

[Ron Party]

Tom, you're batting 2 for 2 in this thread. Starting line up for you, my friend!

 

[amirm]

My question was, for the third time..how was Mike different in person than on the forum. You posted it, you are obligated to explain how he is different.

He is soft spoken. Warm and gentle. Agrees with me with regards to conduct of many people as being inappropriate that I also do. With one exception, in a 90 minute, he was not confrontational. He explained that if people don't go after him, he has no reason to be unhappy in a forum. All but one comment was positive about him. He comes across as the type of person you want to know and spend your time with him.

That left a great impression on me so I decided to completely stay away from challenging him on the forum. I let him say things no matter how different or wrong they are in my views. I absolutely let them brush of my side and let him enjoy having these interactions with other members with similar views.

How is he different in the forum? Here is a comment that he made in your thread to Blizzard:

pulling gear judgments out of one's arse without listening is not truth. it's just rude. particularly for 1st posters. but that is the vibe we have going. it's not changing. but i don't have to like it.

i see that it's your style and understand where you are coming from. in 2 months you have 600 posts and feel you know it all.

maybe you do.

Curse words? Direct attack on the person? Chastising a person for having too many posts? This is not how he spoke to me. Is this how he speaks to others? If not, why is he saying we should do as we do in public?

There is no wiggle room here, I think it is unfair unless you qualify your statements with detail.

Unfair? What is unfair in saying Mike is a great person when you meet him? I am praising him as someone far better than the way he comes across in forums. If people have an opportunity to ever meet him, they should take advantage of it. That is the real Mike. The persona we have here is not.

 

[amirm]

This thread seems to have veered off-topic and gotten entirely too personal.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry for the harsh criticism.

Darn it, you took my advice .