Is criticism to be frowned upon?

[esldude]

I think Bruce B's comment is a good one.

I for one don't think anyone can be the same online as face to face in person. Why? Because face to face is not online. There are some ways you can be better online than in person. There are many more ways to be worse. And being worse is easier.

I understand the idea of face to face interaction being a guideline. It helps, but isn't going to be enough because it isn't the same thing.

I was raised to be very courteous and reticent to a fault. Hard to overcome in person. I have made some progress and can be very rude, and demanding at times when it is important. (some progress huh?)

Now online I can be more direct about my agreement, thinking and disagreement. Not really meaning to be rude, but it is beneficial to air out depths of disagreement with some isolation at times. Things I would perhaps never manage to do usefully in person. One must be careful not to let that devolve into any number of maladies seen in forum atmospheres.

There is some precedent for me prior to internet times. I would sometimes write letters discussing things more cleanly and directly than in person. In a few cases, that subsequently lead to more direct and highly beneficial discussions face to face that otherwise would never have happened.

Bottom line is the online forum community isn't face to face except infrequently. Face to face decorum is a good starting point, but a slavish adherence to that won't work all that effectively.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Seen on the Internet"

"My best quality is my extreme humility."

Humility in the extreme is not quality.

Tim

 

[ack]

It's hard to argue against those who value equanimity in every possible way in every single discussion. But there is also something to be said about straight shooters: I am like that in the office, at home, in court, in emails and online. I've called police "corrupt" in court, for example, and that was one the right forums to do that, and I could care less about the consequences (of which there were none). So far, I have not seen a strong-enough argument why criticizing *products* - be it gums, cars, golf balls, or audio - is to be frowned upon, just not taken well by others... or as microstrip put it, people tend to take negative comments [about audio products?] as statements [of authority, I assume]... No one's making statements _of authority_ I believe, at least I never read others' comments as such.

 

[thedudeabides]

But the reason people leave the forum has nothing to do with the gear, nor our criticism of it - only our treatment of one another.

Unfortunately true.

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

I would suggest pointless online arguments are to be frowned upon but criticism, constructive at least, should not if it is a genuinely held belief borne of experience. I usually see ego when I see people engage in arguments. I would have thought life is too short to be bothered with it.

I like to post under my own name these days. It makes me mindful of what I say, and who I say it to. I also understand that audio attracts some fairly unusual characters, often a touch on the spectrum, and it is easy to misinterpret or misunderstand a comment, taking offence where none was intended.

After all its only audio. Let's not get too excited about our first world problems.

 

[Andre Marc]

It's hard to argue against those who value equanimity in every possible way in every single discussion. But there is also something to be said about straight shooters: I am like that in the office, at home, in court, in emails and online. I've called police "corrupt" in court, for example, and that was one the right forums to do that, and I could care less about the consequences (of which there were none). So far, I have not seen a strong-enough argument why criticizing *products* - be it gums, cars, golf balls, or audio - is to be frowned upon, just not taken well by others... or as microstrip put it, people tend to take negative comments [about audio products?] as statements [of authority, I assume]... No one's making statements _of authority_ I believe, at least I never read others' comments as such.

Good post ack.

 

[ack]

It is perhaps time to wrap this up. Hopefully management will consider all this and see if new forum rules should be set in place, and hopefully everyone will adhere to. But it's clear that the constant wrangling, management "reminders", I-said-this-but-I-meant-that-and-you-took-it-the-wrong-way, aren't doing anything to help. Perhaps they could also address the "how much technical content" issue as well. One of the downsides of stricter posting rules may be lower traffic, and the real problem with that is more time for us at work, LOL. Personally, I never lose sight of the fact online forums are for learning something here and there, and mostly cheap entertainment.

 

[Al M.]

I think Bruce B's comment is a good one.

I for one don't think anyone can be the same online as face to face in person. Why? Because face to face is not online. There are some ways you can be better online than in person. There are many more ways to be worse. And being worse is easier.

I understand the idea of face to face interaction being a guideline. It helps, but isn't going to be enough because it isn't the same thing.

I was raised to be very courteous and reticent to a fault. Hard to overcome in person. I have made some progress and can be very rude, and demanding at times when it is important. (some progress huh?)

Now online I can be more direct about my agreement, thinking and disagreement. Not really meaning to be rude, but it is beneficial to air out depths of disagreement with some isolation at times. Things I would perhaps never manage to do usefully in person. One must be careful not to let that devolve into any number of maladies seen in forum atmospheres.

There is some precedent for me prior to internet times. I would sometimes write letters discussing things more cleanly and directly than in person. In a few cases, that subsequently lead to more direct and highly beneficial discussions face to face that otherwise would never have happened.

Bottom line is the online forum community isn't face to face except infrequently. Face to face decorum is a good starting point, but a slavish adherence to that won't work all that effectively.

I agree. When you speak in person you follow certain rules of politeness that apply to exactly that, a face-to-face discussion. Yet in writing it is different. It is more just about the idea itself and how it is approached -- questions of style are stripped away. I also had private email discussions that on both sides were more direct and confrontational than they would have been in person. And that includes discussions with friends. So no, I don't think "The standard should be how one communicates face to face."

 

[Al M.]

Mike Lavigne's post, repeated by Steve, is exactly correct: "The standard should be how one communicates face to face." If you would not say it in person, then you should not write it on-line.

It is very unfortunate -- it is a loss to all of us -- if the lack of decorum causes people like Mike and Jack D. to be less interested in active participation on WBF.

Hi Ron,

I think your actions contradict what you say here, and not even in a negative way.

Here is a post of yours that makes my point:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...erbole-control&p=356063&viewfull=1#post356063

Would you have formulated things in a face-to-face personal debate with Peter B. in such a direct manner? I bet you wouldn't. But what you wrote was an outstanding post, and you should not have changed anything about it for the sake of 'politeness'. It was a statement that was direct, as it should be in the medium of writing, where personal niceties have less of a place and it is just about the idea itself.

Of course, personal insults have no place in a discussion. Yet when you use the terms "logically defective" and "manifestly illogical" in your above linked post you just state things plainly and correctly as they are, without mincing words. If that falsely were to be taken as personal insult, then the problem would be with the person that feels offended, not with your statements.

 

[Groucho]

I like 'hyperbole' even if it is opposite to my own view - I enjoy a good debate - but I don't see any reason to ever make it personal. I think It is possible to make a statement that may even effectively ridicule another person's viewpoint without addressing it to them directly. It's then up to them if they want to pick it up and argue it, or they can ignore it without humiliation. The most difficult thing to take, I think, is someone who condescends to 'correct' you personally, in front of everyone else. It can be done differently.

But... I think that not everyone shares my point of view. The 'detached' debating style that I enjoy is often taken to be "trolling" because it isn't sufficiently personal.

 

[NorthStar]

After reading this "audio criticism" thread, I would like to take the opportunity, right here right now, to say: What a bunch! ...Myself included.

________

Criticism in audio is good, even when it's bad...I believe that. Electronics are not humans. ...Sure they are built/designed by humans, and machines, and all of us, as humans, we all operate/live from different set of values. ...7.35 billion of them.

We are an inferior race, with so many weaknesses that it is a disease that spreads all over and there is no cure. ...How harsher than that could it be!

It's sometimes like Facebook, and in Brazil they decided to come directly to your home and put a billboard in front of it saying the things you said on the Internet. ...True too!

* Here's what I see when I look myself in a mirror: A very smooth, peaceful, intelligent, human being.
And yet some people would love to strangle me! ...But I am not a piece of electronics, and I am not the god of knowledge on audio.
I am human, like anyone else, with emotions, and humor.

All the pain that I suffered in my life because of bad music recordings I tend to express it, to unload it right here.

One thing is for sure; I am better than the rest.

Lol, WBF is first and mostly about hi-end audio. Everything else is just secondary, even the music. Sure we talk about the music recordings, the artists, but only very briefly and pouf it vanishes and the meat of the action is in the details; the entrailles of our electronics, the magic sound, the what our ears perceived to be the closest to the best live event, because many live music events sound awful...the same plays sound much better @ home. And it's a fact. So in a sense we are the performers in our own homes, by setting up ourselves with our gear.

Criticism is like a sharp blade sometimes slicing a nice roast beef dinner. And we all know about the handle...

How we perceive ourselves and how other perceive us is often two very different things. But that's not the essence; audio is.

We are less worthy than our own loudspeakers. ...We put more value on material things thinking that they bring the best in us. Lol
And we are ready to defend and protect our possessions to the point of boiling red hot inside, lol

Even if the music matters we all really know that it doesn't. We are only claiming the words, but not the day-to-day debates that is truly taking place, and it's perfectly normal as this is not a music forum but a hi-end audio forum of audiophiles. The music section is always @ the end of the audio magazine.

Criticizing the artist's performance, the quality music recording, is something we are more expert @ than criticizing the medium...the gear that reproduces it. ...Maybe?

_______

I am thinking @ all the people who posted and shared here since the creation of this forum. There are so many who are in my mind that it would take too much space to enumerate.
They are gone, on their own free will, others were banned. What have we become?

 

[Blizzard]

After reading this "audio criticism" thread, I would like to take the opportunity, right here right now, to say: What a bunch! ...Myself included.

________

Criticism in audio is good, even when it's bad...I believe that. Electronics are not humans. ...Sure they are build/designed by humans, and machines, and all of us, as humans, we all operate/live from different set of values. ...7.35 billion of them.

We are an inferior race, with so many weaknesses that it is a disease that spreads all over and there is no cure. ...How harsher than that could it be!

It's sometimes like Facebook, and in Brazil they decided to come directly to your home and put a billboard in front of it saying the things you said on the Internet. ...True too!

* Here's what I see when I look myself in a mirror: A very smooth, peaceful, intelligent, human being.
And yet some people would love to strangle me! ...But I am not a piece of electronics, and I am not the god of knowledge on audio.
I am human, like anyone else, with emotions, and humor.

All the pain that I suffered in my life because of bad music recordings I tend to express it, to unload it right here.

One thing is for sure; I am better than the rest.

Lol, WBF is first and mostly about hi-end audio. Everything else is just secondary, even the music. Sure we talk about the music recordings, the artists, but only very briefly and pouf it vanishes and the meat of the action is in the details; the entrailles of our electronics, the magic sound, the what our ears perceived to be the closest to the best live event, because many live music events sound awful...the same plays sound much better @ home. And it's a fact. So in a sense we are the performers in our own homes, by setting up ourselves with our gear.

Criticism is like a sharp blade sometimes slicing a nice roast beef dinner. And we all know about the handle...

How we perceive ourselves and how other perceive us is often two very different things. But that's not the essence; audio is.

We are less worthy than our own loudspeakers. ...We put more value on material things thinking that they bring the best in us. Lol
And we are ready to defend and protect our possessions to the point of boiling red hot inside, lol

Even if the music matters we all really know that it doesn't. We are only claiming the words, but not the day-to-day debates that is truly taking place, and it's perfectly normal as this is not a music forum but a hi-end audio forum of audiophiles. The music section is always @ the end of the audio magazine.

Criticizing the artist's performance, the quality music recording, is something we are more expert @ than criticizing the medium...the gear that reproduces it. ...Maybe?

_______

I am thinking @ all the people who posted and shared here since the creation of this forum. There are so many that are in my mind that it would take too much space to enumerate.
They are gone, on their own free will, others were banned. What have we become?

MMMMMMMM!!! Sharp knife slicing a nice roast beef

View attachment 23826

 

[NorthStar]

I admit Mike, I was thinking of you when I wrote that line.

 

[Blizzard]

I admit Mike, I was thinking of you when I wrote that line.

That's the first thing that popped into my mind when I read that.

 

[NorthStar]

criticism is not to be frowned on. We are all here to express ourselves. I visit here to see what topics are going, and if one is interesting, as this one, I am in and typing away. Audio is something that I have some passion for, and this site, no matter what, is my first stop, and usually only stop. If there is nothing here of interest when I pop in I feel a wee bit of sadness. Folks leave here and come back, and the reason is the general membership here does a pretty good job of interacting. We have the range of folks, self proclaimed poor folks to folks whose rounding errors in their checkbooks account for a months wages for many of us.

Audio can be looked at from a thousand different angles, and so that's why we need criticism, but criticize the post not the poster to me seems the best "rule", interacting as you do in person is a good one but not to me the best one, IMO, as this is not a face to face interaction, and because of this, one can not ask questions to clarify like you can face to face and read expressions on peoples faces, etc. I agree its a bit of a different world, and therefore face to face idea just does not fully work, but of course has value.

I for one would not be against stricter punishments for those that attack the poster, and as a result of that, one who suffers punishments will learn or leave, either way is best for the forum IMO.

That, in red. Having fun, be humorous with other members; beautiful. Like in a real civilized/intelligent/good living society.

Putting down people, on a personal level, with direct insults, with distaste, addressing/criticizing negatively the poster and not addressing/criticizing the post's content, publicly in an open forum, is the way of the low lifers. Who's a low lifer here? Yep, I thought so too, no one. :b

* Here's what I was referring to earlier: https://www.rt.com/news/324239-billboard-racism-campaign-brazil/

___________

You mentioned "face-to-face". In real life I know some people (bandits) who would never face the people who they stole from, or destroyed their life.
On forums, we have emails (only for family members and friends and business associates), telephone lines, Skype, ...

_______

Your last paragraph (one sentence, underlined); I agree. But almost everyday, over there, and sometimes here, that rule mainly applies to the oppressed by the oppressors! Yeah, it is the person who received the insults who get banned! Just the opposite of what it should not be.
And why? Lol we all know why, there is simply no justice left in the heart of men.

Let's take a look @ OJ, or John du Pont...yeah, that John du Pont guy; perfect example. Do you know what he got away with?
And why? Because status, symbol, prestige, money, it all buy the worst of the worst in the laws/rules of men.

I won't go into the details, just goggle it, and check with a magnifier. It's disgusting.

Anyway, in forums people get away with insulting other members, and they shouldn't get away with it, and that includes the most poorest of the poorest to the most powerful and richest man on Earth. Justice for that class but not that one? Lol, that ain't no justice; look in the book of life the definition of "justice". It's about equality, fraternity, freedom (liberty).

Are we living in a violent world or in a non-violent one? ...We decide, because nobody else will. Freedom starts right @ home ... in the garden of children, in the sand box with trucks and toys and all that jazz.

_______

One more thing: I'm sure you guys noticed the higher activity than usual for the last few months. And couple weeks ago a new record of participation was established. I know it means nothing @ all, and that's exactly why I just mentioned it here.

 

[Rodney Gold]

What makes any of you think that this forum will not be susceptible to any other internet forums vagaries...
More censorship and more rules...not a chance. too much "overthinking" of this topic.
You want to unfairly criticise or attack or denigrate an introduced product or another persons choices .. put up with the backlash .. dont winge about it

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why not? I will characterize it other the one exception that it was very friendly. Nothing remotely close to our interactions in the forum.


Wasn't nothing at all. To other posts, is this constructive? Did you get to know me? We are your host here. If you went to some booth at the show as you did, would pick one of the person there and repeatedly make them look like the bad guy in front of everyone else?

Mike, I would love for you to follow what you have written. Would you do that for the next few days and give us permission to point out when you deviate?

Amir,

below are recent posts of mine addressing the direction of WBF. I have no personal problem with anyone including you or Blizzard. my issue is how the posting of you and Blizzard is pushing WBF in a direction I don't care for. it's not a right or wrong issue for me. it's only whether I like it or not. if this forum or any forum has value to me I will work to keep it working for me before I simply go somewhere else. which is what the posts below represent, my efforts to keep WBF acceptable to me. when the forum was originally put together Steve asked me to join to add credibility to it and content too. it was suppose to be a friendly place to high end audio. that is what I desire. it's not that way now as I view it.

so you do what you need to do, and I will do what I need to do. but really; we have little in common on these issues. if you want me to stop pointing out that you are taking the forum in a direction I don't like then stop doing that. but i'm not saying you are a bad guy, i'm saying you want a different forum than I want. and clearly you have your own cheering section who enjoy debunking high end perspectives. maybe that is where WBF is headed. if so, then it's not the place for me.

I've never said I cannot handle criticism to myself, others, or any products. but there is a respectful way to do that and there is the wild wild west. and maybe i'm all by myself as far as I what I want about that issue. I speak for no one but myself. and we all judge for ourselves through our own truth prism. the forum members and their actions will ultimately make it what it is.

do I want to be with those who have left WBF or those who are here? or do i need to have to make that choice?

that is for me to decide.

I do stand by what I say below as my beliefs. but i'm not perfect and don't claim to always be a certain way. OTOH I think i do use reasonable discretion the majority of the time. as you know, time and time again I've deleted posts i made in haste when i took something too personal and later thought better of it. or even apologized. i'm very passionate about this hobby and as committed to it as anyone.

+1.

I guess we will all watch to learn whether Amir's and Blizzard's views on gear discussions will continue to affect the direction for WBF and the overall balance of things. and what that means going forward for each of us. I know it's not working for me.

to me the standard should be how one communicates face to face. if you go to an audio show, or local audio club meeting, or visit someone's home.......and a new product is being presented, how would that typically go? what would you say to someone who was talking about it? would you start out skeptical and look for flaws, and make a strong case for those perceived issues, or would you attempt to connect with it and understand it first? would common courtesy inhibit any initial strong criticism?

if your reaction face to face is different than how it is behind a keyboard then we just view things differently.

I guess it's reasonable that our on-line character differs from our face-to-face character sometimes. but to me that is sad.

I certainly know curmudgeons who are outwardly negative on most everything. I can tell you I don't look to spend much time with them.

I like to learn stuff, and seek the truth. interpreting my posts in this thread as somehow being afraid to learn simply misses my points. being a community means being communal. I suppose we all have our own ideas on what that means.

I'm a little late to this discussion and skimmed thru the posts.

I don't defend Andre's choice of words in the title or his heated responses. but attacking the 'alleged' technical shortcomings of gear, particularly gear which is newly introduced to us, or introduced to us by someone familiar to us, is just bad manners and will tear apart the community.

and then if we allow first posters to swoop down and take pot shots at this 'fresh meat' then shame on us.

is that the kind of neighborhood we want????

there has to be a bit of respect and presumption of the possibility that whatever kind of gear it might be, that we have interest in learning about it before we pass judgment.

I lay a significant amount of the responsibility for this trend on Amir. why beat around the bush? he dives right in for easy pickings.....no matter his contrary rational. it's his DNA clearly. and as we go farther down that road it's more and more who we are.

today I posted about tube rolling.

you know what's great. Amir and Blizzard don't know ducky about tubes so they stayed the hell away.

Blizzard,

I believe you are trying to be of help. and likely what you are recommending could make some positive improvement to the performance. but continuing to push people to modify their new 'under warranty' gear and blindly proclaiming improvements is wearing thin. there are so many bad things that can happen when even reasonably competent amateurs start messing around with otherwise good performing new gear. and you suggest all these 'fixes' with so little caution or qualification.

we can't have a thread on new digital without you telling us why it's not current. I guess it's the degree of your approach not so much the idea of it I'm commenting on.

maybe we should give you a sub-forum to push people who want to 'hot-rod' new gear.

I got to say I'm impressed with your energy level. a few days ago you said you are a man on a mission. no doubt!!!!!

I don't speak for anyone but myself. my 2 cents, YMMV and all that stuff.

from the closed thread;

respectfully; while I agree with your comments here and no doubt rules have been stretched too far in this case, my own personal opinion is that it's bad form in general for a moderator involved in a thread to moderate it too. the whole concept of moderation is objectivity. and that the target for the moderation see that clearly it is an objective moderation perspective.

ask another mod to step into threads you participate in.

OTOH it is your forum.

 

[amirm]

What makes any of you think that this forum will not be susceptible to any other internet forums vagaries...
More censorship and more rules...not a chance. too much "overthinking" of this topic.
You want to unfairly criticise or attack or denigrate an introduced product or another persons choices .. put up with the backlash .. dont winge about it

This forum 100% is open to any criticism of any products. No retaliation whatsoever is allowed against the person making such comments. Should you get personal in that manner, you would be violating forum terms of service and sanctions will just be two clicks away.

 

[amirm]

Amir,

below are recent posts of mine addressing the direction of WBF. I have no personal problem with anyone including you or Blizzard. my issue is how the posting of you and Blizzard is pushing WBF in a direction I don't care for.

Addressing the first part, your posts constantly come across to me as you having a problem with me Mike. And people tell me that you have a problem with me. And what I quoted, clearly showed to me that you have a problem with Blizzard. I have read a number of your responses to him and they show clear resentment. Again, these are all impressions you are leaving. If they are the opposite of what you mean, then please ask me and I will coach you on how to express yourself differently. Otherwise whether it is shyness or something else, I don't get why you keep saying things that belie the reality here.

Getting to the second thing, you have said that repeatedly as have a number of people. But nothing specific is said. So let's have that. What "direction" do you think I am pushing the forum??? I like to address this hear and now. Let's have it and I and others can comment on it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Addressing the first part, your posts constantly come across to me as you having a problem with me Mike. And people tell me that you have a problem with me. And what I quoted, clearly showed to me that you have a problem with Blizzard. I have read a number of your responses to him and they show clear resentment. Again, these are all impressions you are leaving. If they are the opposite of what you mean, then please ask me and I will coach you on how to express yourself differently.

Getting to the second thing, you have said that repeatedly as have a number of people. But nothing specific is said. So let's have that. What "direction" do you think I am pushing the forum??? I like to address this hear and now. Let's have it and I and others can comment on it.

'Red Herring' alert.

Amir, you are trying to manipulate the issues here by making this personal.

either make a case for the crap you are writing or withdraw it. "People tell me"......what does that mean? either I posted it or I did not. who knows me to justify what you are writing?

this is completely about the direction of the forum. period. it's nothing personal. it's nothing personal. it's nothing personal.

what is with all these personal comments?