Why negative reviews can be unethical and misleading: 10audio.com

Hi back to you, Mike
You have my permission to post those posts from fb, that you have deleted.
I do not have 'problem' with opinions that are different than mine, in fact, in this matter, I dont have opinion at all, since I never heard the Atmas amps in question.
Neither you should, (have an opinion) since you obviously did not listen to those Atmas amps too, since you are using others people thoughts to 'prove' your opinion. To paraphrase you, 'Many others reviewers heard them and you are just sharing their views in support of your 'theory' that all d class is bad sounding, that nobody who ever heard Atmas had a good opinion about it and that only corrupted reviewers could write something positive about it. Finally, Mr. Karsten 'attacks' people who dare to express different opinion and so on'..but, in the sam time, you are there to 'solve' any doubts anybody might have, since you care about nothing else but truth...
So yes, I have a 'problem', when someone like you, in a very obvious and blatant way tries to 'gain' some attention (I really do hate that I am giving it even more by doing this) by manipulating the facts and spreading false information and by smearing someone's good reputation and in the same time pretending to have high moral and etic standards.
Finally, as I have wrote before, if you have just wrote your own opinion about that product (or any other) I would not mind, no matter what you think. But, obviously, you have very different agenda on your mind...

Hi Alex - I'm genuinely sorry you've been so traumatized by this - a simple post on a small time channel and FB page.

I appreciate your help in conveying my video points here, though people can watch or not watch the video to see what I said (which I stand by and won't be intimidated on) or not watch it - I really don't care as I don't make money on it.

Since my channel ISN'T monetized I don't gain any benefit from more clicks. It was you and Ralph who posted it here and you and Ralph drew more attention to it.

I'm sorry but when your agenda and motives became clear on FB I stopped engaging you. I'm not going to continue to engage you here either. You are the only person to ever have people complain about them on my page. You idolize Ralph and you decided to prove my video true - that people can't handle a review they don't like. And your inability to move on with your life and your need to bring your pain of being blocked from a small time FB page to here raises some alarms about keeping things in perspective.

There are going to be quite a few posts and videos you won't like on YT and FB - you need to learn how to cope with it in life.

It's Christmas time and I'm not going to continue to engage you and this agenda. I said my piece, I stand by it, and you've helped prove it true.

You need to spend energy focused on more positive things in life - not being upset someone has a different opinion than you.

Merry Christmas!
 
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Hi Alex - I'm genuinely sorry you've been so traumatized by this - a simple post on a small time channel and FB page.

I appreciate your help in conveying my video points here, though people can watch or not watch the video to see what I said (which I stand by and won't be intimidated on) or not watch it - I really don't care as I don't make money on it.

Since my channel ISN'T monetized I don't gain any benefit from more clicks. It was you and Ralph who posted it here and you and Ralph drew more attention to it.

I'm sorry but when your agenda and motives became clear on FB I stopped engaging you. I'm not going to continue to engage you here either. You are the only person to ever have people complain about them on my page. You idolize Ralph and you decided to prove my video true - that people can't handle a review they don't like. And your inability to move on with your life and your need to bring your pain of being blocked from a small time FB page to here raises some alarms about keeping things in perspective.

There are going to be quite a few posts and videos you won't like on YT and FB - you need to learn how to cope with it in life.

It's Christmas time and I'm not going to continue to engage you and this agenda. I said my piece, I stand by it, and you've helped prove it true.

You need to spend energy focused on more positive things in life - not being upset someone has a different opinion than you.

Merry Christmas!
Hi, Mike
I believe that in English language exists a term that defines your post, its called a 'strawman fallacy'.
There is obvious logical contradiction between your words and actions, since you have choose to delete comments that are questioning your narrative.
I am not surprised that you are further trying to manipulate that story, no matter how childish it is.
Pity that you have not a choose to be a gentleman. It does seem that 'sorry' is the 'hardest word' as the poem says.
Merry Christmas to you as well
 
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'I have asked him. Repeatedly.
Actually to the best of my knowledge, I've never heard from him. And this statement is false:
He never missed the opportunity to lecture someone on why and how tube amps are inferior.'
Of course that belies the fact that we introduced a new tube amplifier just this year.

My comments to him on the YT page in question got deleted. The first one was pointing out that in fact we have a new tube amp. The second was a comment asking him to contact me, which didn't happen. Actually I think if he did do that, he might be able to get some good content...

For the record, I don't attack people online in any forum. Attacking a person, like saying 'you don't know what you're talking about' or name calling, any of that stuff is verboten in most forum sites under the guise of 'personal attacks'. I do go after posts that have factual errors; the idea simply being 'attack the post not the poster'. If you can set someone straight on some technical issue, they might not like it now but might think differently in the future. Attacking them pretty well shuts the door on any friendship. Sometimes I'll say something after quoting a post that is problematic by saying something like 'this statement is false' and follow it up with the facts, which are usually engineering in nature. If I feel I don't know something about a particular topic, I try to keep quiet until I learn more. I've been on the internet since before the web and have been in too many flame wars. I learned a long time ago that taking things personally on the web is a mistake; you can't ever know what the problem is with someone else you've never met. That simple fact makes it a lot harder to loose my cool.

I don't mind that someone is critical of our products either, if they are being honest. Its when things happen like good reviews turned into bad ones after the fact just to be vindictive is when I have a problem- or a review that has its roots in the same place, like the one that started all this.

I will say this also: it does not matter what kind of amp; SET, PP tube, OTL, solid state A or AB or class D, if they are designed properly they will be musical. I am critical of SETs on account of engineering reasons (I've stated some of them on the SET Owner's thread on this site). I know that having done so has probably upset a number of people but fact is fact (for example: elliptical load lines at low frequencies). I try really hard not to lie about something; I don't think I'm smart enough to keep track of where doing that might lead. Sooner or later someone will dig something like that up and present you with it and I like to sleep at night.
 
My comments to him on the YT page in question got deleted. The first one was pointing out that in fact we have a new tube amp. The second was a comment asking him to contact me, which didn't happen. Actually I think if he did do that, he might be able to get some good content...
I know you're not referencing me as this is 100% not true if so.

I have never seen any comment from you nor deleted anything from you. Ever. That video has over 145 comments and I receive more than 500 per week and I try to stay up on them but I can't always do that.

I have no reason to delete your comments or ignore you asking me to contact you.

I stand by my video and everything I said in the video. And I stand by my calling out the total ridiculousness of your comment that negative reviews are "unethical".

And with almost 8,000 views it has a 97% approval rating last time I checked so it appears many people share the same sentiment. If anything I would never have deleted your supposed comments as I'm sure the commenters would have loved engaging you especially over your "negative reviews are unethical" comments. Boy did that garner a lot of strong opinions.

With the utmost respect, I only cover stuff that I find interesting as my channel isn't monetized so I don't "need" content. I've heard enough of your gear in person, at friends, and heard first hand of their experiences with your gear to know that I respectfully have no interest in your gear. I'm not saying anything negative about it. I just don't care about it.

I know Ron put a bee in your bonnet when he called you about this, but if after all these decades in the industry you can't handle someone who didn't like your Class D amp, then that says a lot.

I think the funniest thing is you've tried to make my video about you when in fact it was primarily about the circus around you. You were simply the supporting player. Your starting this thread here has proven the validity of my video far better than anything I could ever had done to support it.

You did say that you could have given me great content had I called you. Recent posts have already done that. Thank you.
 
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Yes, After my YT posts disappeared Ron suggested I put up the initial post here.

I feel like I'm getting some animosity here. Am I wrong? I've not called you out, since you had no idea that 10Audio wasn't being straight up. You are incorrect about me making your video about me; I agree about the circus thing. I'm more concerned that after all these years, 10Audio still feels like taking pot shots at us, although apparently with all the heat, he pulled the review about which this tempest in a teacup revolves.

I do have a question though since you 'stand by' your video. In that video you said Jerry gave his 'honest' opinion. Since you now know that the amps (if 10Audio even had a set, which is still in doubt) were used and didn't come from us, how do you know they were working correctly and hadn't been modified or some such? Jerry got in trouble over 20 years ago with this exact same thing that started all this- he bought a used, poorly assembled kit amp and reviewed it as new. I outlined all this in my initial post.

Do you feel OK promoting something that (evidence provided earlier) wasn't true now that you have more information?
 
how do you know they were working correctly and hadn't been modified or some such?

Your above question is right up there with "negative reviews are unethical". Complete nonsense.

You claim Ron told you to come here and post because you felt I deleted your comment on another platform that has nothing to do with WBF? I would have loved to have seen the responses to your supposed post and see you defend the "negative reviews are unethical comment". So again I did not delete your fake comment.

"Do you feel OK promoting something that (evidence provided earlier) wasn't true now that you have more information?" I must have missed the part where he admitted he never heard your amps before? Can you point to where he said that?

You clearly either didn't watch my video or the point of the video was above you. It was NOT about someone not liking your amp. Again you've proven the point of the video - that certain people are incapable and unwilling to accept others opinions without the need to attack.

Your comment that negative reviews are unethical shows an agenda of squelching anyone who disagrees with you. Your posts here show the same thing. You have done a fantastic job of proving my video absolutely correct in its premise.

Every time you post you keep proving the video more and more true. Thank you.
 
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You claim Ron told you to come here and post because you felt I deleted your comment on another platform that has nothing to do with WBF?
No.
I don't know how my posts went missing. I have photos go missing on my iphone. I tend to use the word 'deleted' but that might not be accurate. At any rate I never said you deleted my posts.
Your above question is right up there with "negative reviews are unethical". Complete nonsense.
Perhaps you could explain. Right now you seem to be upset. So if I was to send a product to you and you were mad at me, do you think you could be objective about it? This is of course hypothetical, but since you seem to have real feelings going on, I'm thinking maybe they can help you to see my point. BTW, this is an old topic, one that existed long before your video.
"Do you feel OK promoting something that (evidence provided earlier) wasn't true now that you have more information?" I must have missed the part where he admitted he never heard your amps before? Can you point to where he said that?
You seem to have missed my point. Your question seems to have nothing to do with what I asked. What I am saying here is the 10Audio review has problems with credibility and I provided examples of how that looked prior in this thread. But you say in your video that he spoke the truth. So I'm asking since you now know there's a problem, that he has an agenda, do you feel OK promoting something that is likely suspect? Put another way would you feel comfortable selling yogurt that was 6 months past its freshness date; I'm pretty sure that's not something you'd do.
You clearly either didn't watch my video or the point of the video was above you. It was NOT about someone not liking your amp. Again you've proven the point of the video - that certain people are incapable and unwilling to accept others opinions without the need to attack.
So far I've not attacked but its clear you feel that way. Again, up until now you've been off the hook since you had no way of knowing 10Audio isn't always on the up and up. Yet you seem to be taking this personally. There's no need for that.
Your comment that negative reviews are unethical shows an agenda of squelching anyone who disagrees with you.
This statement is false and suggests you've not read my prior posts. Perhaps you could go back and take a look. My position is 'bad reviews are often unethical because of things that are not written' as in this case, where the reviewer has an axe to grind, one that you had no way of knowing about. You would have to have been active on audioasylum.com 20-25 years ago to know anything about that! I explained all this earlier.
You have done a fantastic job of proving my video absolutely correct in its premise.
Well since the title of your review suggests there's an honest review (and the focus of the video seems to be the 10Audio review in question) what is really happening is considerably different because you by chance chose a review where an unseen agenda was guiding it.

And you now know that 10Audio was playing that agenda and played you in the process.

Again, I provided evidence in this thread already showing that Jerry had not been honest in the past and may have used the same technique again. For example we don't know if he even had the amps at all. When someone has an agenda, it opens the door to things that get published that don't reflect the reality that underpins the published material.

I explained all this earlier with examples.
 
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Ralph, I understand that you think in this case the negative review is unethical. I might have misunderstood your earlier position, but I thought you wrote that reviewers should return products they do not like and that no negative reviews should be published. Is that correct? Or do you think a review can be negative if the reviewer simply shares his honest opinion?

As a former consumer, I used to want to read both the positive and the negative about a product from reviewers I trusted and thought were ethical. My thought is that that better serves the consumer, though perhaps not the manufacturer.
 
No.
I don't know how my posts went missing. I have photos go missing on my iphone. I tend to use the word 'deleted' but that might not be accurate. At any rate I never said you deleted my posts.

Perhaps you could explain. Right now you seem to be upset. So if I was to send a product to you and you were mad at me, do you think you could be objective about it? This is of course hypothetical, but since you seem to have real feelings going on, I'm thinking maybe they can help you to see my point. BTW, this is an old topic, one that existed long before your video.

You seem to have missed my point. Your question seems to have nothing to do with what I asked. What I am saying here is the 10Audio review has problems with credibility and I provided examples of how that looked prior in this thread. But you say in your video that he spoke the truth. So I'm asking since you now know there's a problem, that he has an agenda, do you feel OK promoting something that is likely suspect? Put another way would you feel comfortable selling yogurt that was 6 months past its freshness date; I'm pretty sure that's not something you'd do.

So far I've not attacked but its clear you feel that way. Again, up until now you've been off the hook since you had no way of knowing 10Audio isn't always on the up and up. Yet you seem to be taking this personally. There's no need for that.

This statement is false and suggests you've not read my prior posts. Perhaps you could go back and take a look. My position is 'bad reviews are often unethical because of things that are not written' as in this case, where the reviewer has an axe to grind, one that you had no way of knowing about. You would have to have been active on audioasylum.com 20-25 years ago to know anything about that! I explained all this earlier.

Well since the title of your review suggests there's an honest review (and the focus of the video seems to be the 10Audio review in question) what is really happening is considerably different because you by chance chose a review where an unseen agenda was guiding it.

And you now know that 10Audio was playing that agenda and played you in the process.

Again, I provided evidence in this thread already showing that Jerry had not been honest in the past and may have used the same technique again. For example we don't know if he even had the amps at all. When someone has an agenda, it opens the door to things that get published that don't reflect the reality that underpins the published material.

I explained all this earlier with examples.



Good bye Ralph. Have fun. I'm going to go focus on life. You should try the same.
 
Ralph, I understand that you think in this case the negative review is unethical. I might have misunderstood your earlier position, but I thought you wrote that reviewers should return products they do not like and that no negative reviews should be published. Is that correct? Or do you think a review can be negative if the reviewer simply shares his honest opinion?

As a former consumer, I used to want to read both the positive and the negative about a product from reviewers I trusted and thought were ethical. My thought is that that better serves the consumer, though perhaps not the manufacturer.

The major problem I see - is that likes & dislikes in audio is both a subjective & an individuals opinion. We don't all hear the same & our brains interpret sound differently. If you have never read a review of a particular product perhaps there is a reason. I agree with - if you don't like the sound - don't review it.

As for reviewers - I am also not interested in reading or hearing anything from loud, bombastic, argumentative individuals how wouldn't know tact if the tripped over it (I hope your read this Synaxis)...
 
Ralph, I understand that you think in this case the negative review is unethical. I might have misunderstood your earlier position, but I thought you wrote that reviewers should return products they do not like and that no negative reviews should be published. Is that correct? Or do you think a review can be negative if the reviewer simply shares his honest opinion?

As a former consumer, I used to want to read both the positive and the negative about a product from reviewers I trusted and thought were ethical. My thought is that that better serves the consumer, though perhaps not the manufacturer.
You have my position stated pretty accurately. The problem I've run into in this industry is that bad reviews are often the result of an agenda rather than actual honesty. I gave examples prior. @Synaxis mentioned in a prior post that he didn't care to hear our stuff and up until now has never mentioned it, which is the proper way to handle things.

In the case of 10Audio something I've not mentioned so far concerns the MP-3 preamp he reviewed. The review said the phono was noisy even with the SUTs. He sold that preamp to a gentleman in Rochester, MN who put it in his car and gave us a visit- he wanted us to check it out. He was upset; the review came out after he bought the preamp, which he felt was a bit underhanded.

But I put the preamp in our system, put on an LP and cranked up the volume to a loud but not overwhelming level. Since this preamp was equipped with an SUT it had a lot of gain! So then without touching the volume control I lifted the tonearm off the LP and we listened to the noise floor using my Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T-3s, which are rated 98dB/1 Watt. He had to put his ear to the mouth of the horn to hear any noise; I then switched to an Auxiliary input and there was no difference in the noise floor. Its was very well behaved. That is when I knew 10Audio had completely misrepresented the noise floor.
Good bye Ralph. Have fun. I'm going to go focus on life. You should try the same.
Thank you! That is good advice; one we should all be doing.
 
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Yes, After my YT posts disappeared Ron suggested I put up the initial post here.
1) Ralph, this is misleading, at best. The only way in which this is not false is the sequence of events.

You told me that you believed your YouTube comments on Michael's thread disappeared. Hours later I encouraged you to start a thread here, as discussed below. So, your post above is true technically only in the sense of temporal sequence that I suggested you start a thread here after you claimed earlier that your posts disappeared -- one thing happened after the other in time, but one thing had nothing to do with the other causally or substantively.

2) After watching Michael's video I felt that Michael's video suggested that you had A) stopped making tube amplifiers, and B) repudiated the sonic qualities of tube amplifiers. I said to Michael on the telephone that I felt his video suggested these two things.

I was puzzled about these suggestions so I called you on the telephone primarily to establish the simple fact of whether or not you are continuing to make tube amplifiers. I asked you: "Are you continuing to make tube amplifiers?" You replied "yes," and that, in fact, you had "recently released an integrated tube amplifier."

I asked you something to the effect of "have you repudiated the sonic qualities of tube amplifiers?" You said "no," you have not repudiated tube amplifiers, but that you are critical of SET amplifiers.

I reported to Michael on the telephone the information you told me that you are still making tube electronics, and that you have not repudiated tube electronics. In response, Michael pinned a correction to the top of his YouTube video. Once Michael published the correction I told you that there is nothing else to do regarding Michael's video.

3) Then we had a few more emails in which you claimed that there were misleading statements in Michael's video. I challenged you to explain what you found misleading, because, after Michael pinned the correction to the top of his video, I did not find anything in Michael's video to be misleading.

4) I suggested to you both over e-mail and on the telephone that it is not a great business strategy for a manufacturer of tube electronics to spend his time railing publicly and repeatedly against SET amplifiers.

5) Regarding starting a thread on WBF I wrote to you via e-mail:

I encourage you to start a new thread and respond to Jerry's review on WBF.

If you can prove that Jerry switched positive reviews to negative reviews after he had a disagreement with you, then that would be very powerful, and would be probative about this new review.


The proof I was talking about was what you told me on the telephone about how you can use some Internet capture thing to prove a timeline of how the reviewer gave you a positive review, and then had some business disagreement with you, and then went back and changed his positive review to a negative review as retribution for the business disagreement.

I didn't tell you anything about or suggest anything about any claimed deletion of any comment on Michael's YouTube channel. I did not encourage you to start a WBF thread to complain about Michael's video or about any claimed deletion of any comment.

I encouraged you to start a WBF thread only to respond to the 10Audio review, and to allege if you wanted to what you said to me -- which is that you believe the review was negative because of past bad blood between you and the reviewer.

6) For the avoidance of doubt I think your view that negative reviews are unethical or misleading is ludicrous. If you had previewed to me that that was going to be the subject of your thread on WBF I would have retracted my suggestion of you starting a thread.
 
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I asked you something to the effect of "have you repudiated the sonic qualities of tube amplifiers?" You said "no," you have not repudiated tube amplifiers, but that you are critical of SET amplifiers.



4) I suggested to you both over e-mail and on the telephone that it is not a great business strategy for a manufacturer of tube electronics to spend his time railing publicly and repeatedly against SET amplifiers.

I completely agree with these two statements. You seem to have observed the same thing I have observed. Ralph has joined the discussion a few times on my natural sound thread to promote his new class D amplifiers while criticizing the performance of SET amplifiers. I had to point out consistently and with reference to distortion graphs supplied by Lamm of my specific amplifier pair that they are very low distortion, particularly in the loads they encounter when driving my corner horn speakers. Ralph eventually conceded the point and I wished him well selling his new products hoping he would do his marketing elsewhere.
 
1) Ralph, this is misleading, at best. The only way in which this is not false is the sequence of events.

You told me that you believed your YouTube comments on Michael's thread disappeared. Hours later I encouraged you to start a thread here, as discussed below. So, your post above is true technically only in the sense of temporal sequence that I suggested you start a thread here after you claimed earlier that your posts disappeared -- one thing happened after the other in time, but one thing had nothing to do with the other causally or substantively.

2) After watching Michael's video I felt that Michael's video suggested that you had A) stopped making tube amplifiers, and B) repudiated the sonic qualities of tube amplifiers. I said to Michael on the telephone that I felt his video suggested these two things.

I was puzzled about these suggestions so I called you on the telephone primarily to establish the simple fact of whether or not you are continuing to make tube amplifiers. I asked you: "Are you continuing to make tube amplifiers?" You replied "yes," and that, in fact, you had "recently released an integrated tube amplifier."

I asked you something to the effect of "have you repudiated the sonic qualities of tube amplifiers?" You said "no," you have not repudiated tube amplifiers, but that you are critical of SET amplifiers.

I reported to Michael on the telephone the information you told me that you are still making tube electronics, and that you have not repudiated tube electronics. In response, Michael pinned a correction to the top of his YouTube video. Once Michael published the correction I told you that there is nothing else to do regarding Michael's video.

3) Then we had a few more emails in which you claimed that there were misleading statements in Michael's video. I challenged you to explain what you found misleading, because, after Michael pinned the correction to the top of his video, I did not find anything in Michael's video to be misleading.

4) I suggested to you both over e-mail and on the telephone that it is not a great business strategy for a manufacturer of tube electronics to spend his time railing publicly and repeatedly against SET amplifiers.

5) Regarding starting a thread on WBF I wrote to you via e-mail:

I encourage you to start a new thread and respond to Jerry's review on WBF.

If you can prove that Jerry switched positive reviews to negative reviews after he had a disagreement with you, then that would be very powerful, and would be probative about this new review.


The proof I was talking about was what you told me on the telephone about how you can use some Internet capture thing to prove a timeline of how the reviewer gave you a positive review, and then had some business disagreement with you, and then went back and changed his positive review to a negative review as retribution for the business disagreement.

I didn't tell you anything about or suggest anything about any claimed deletion of any comment on Michael's YouTube channel. I did not encourage you to start a WBF thread to complain about Michael's video or about any claimed deletion of any comment.

I encouraged you to start a WBF thread only to respond to the 10Audio review, and to allege if you wanted to what you said to me -- which is that you believe the review was negative because of past bad blood between you and the reviewer.

6) For the avoidance of doubt I think your view that negative reviews are unethical or misleading is ludicrous. If you had previewed to me that that was going to be the subject of your thread on WBF I would have retracted my suggestion of you starting a thread.
We're on the same page with all of this except point 6) of course. I've given a number of examples that show how bad reviews can have an unethical underpinning. I have plenty more. So I don't see how 'ludicrous' is at all descriptive; in my experience quite the opposite. I sat at dinner with a distributor and the publisher of a major magazine (who didn't know who I was) and listened to them talk back and forth about reviews and an advertising contract all in the same breath! I'd been told by friends at ARC to avoid that magazine because unless I could place an advertising contract, I'd get a bad review. Nothing ludicrous about it at all.
 
I completely agree with these two statements. You seem to have observed the same thing I have observed. Ralph has joined the discussion a few times on my natural sound thread to promote his new class D amplifiers while criticizing the performance of SET amplifiers. I had to point out consistently and with reference to distortion graphs supplied by Lamm of my specific amplifier pair that they are very low distortion, particularly in the loads they encounter when driving my corner horn speakers. Ralph eventually conceded the point and I wished him well selling his new products hoping he would do his marketing elsewhere.
I was not there to promote our class D. I did mention class D though, in the context of explaining how the distortion signature of the amp is its sonic signature and there are now class D amps that sound very much like the best tube amps and unsurprisingly have a similar distortion spectrum.

The Lamm, being zero feedback, is not low distortion. It makes about 10% THD at clipping although the exact point of clipping, because of all the distortion, is a bit tricky to pin down. What I agreed to is that if you're going to use an amp like that, you have one of the best speakers for doing so, so to maximize the strengths of the amp and reduces its weaknesses. You'd do even better if you employed active subs and limited the bass that the amp sees. You'd hear the improvement immediately.

My criticism of SETs is based on engineering and experience. I've been designing and building them (I am a hobbyist as well as an engineer) and auditioning other examples since about 1991 when Joe Roberts (RIP) of Sound Practices first started promoting them. I've never seen one work as well as other tube amps if both amps were on a loudspeaker on which they were both comfortable. So that's the anecdotal side of it.

The engineering side is vast! Bass is a problem on several counts, starting with the fact that most SETs require a 'cut core' in the core of the output transformer to prevent the DC current of the output tube from saturating the core of the transformer- this to prevent distortion on that account.

The problem is in doing so the inductance of the transformer is reduced. You need inductance in the transformer to make bass. So what happens is the load line of the tube, which as you see at the link, which should be a straight line, becomes elliptical . When that happens distortion takes off and its hard on the power tube as in some points of the operating point thus created, the tube is trying to drive something that looks like a short.

This is why SETs sound a lot better with light jazz or chamber music, but fall apart if you put anything with deep bass into them. For that reason, the people who have the most success with SETs use a different amp to make the bass and often use a crossover to prevent bass getting into the SET. I can go into a number of other problems and have elsewhere as you pointed out: you get the point.

Two of some of the more vociferous advocates of SETs I know of both use this approach as they are very well aware of this problem. One is active on this forum. I have noticed that there's not a lot of engineering talent when I get into these conversations about SETs. Most people don't like to hear about the flaws of the technology in which they have invested! I'm sure this hasn't helped me.

I can't help but notice in writing this that I've not been taking my own advice regarding reviews. If I were I would just remain silent about SETs. So some might see that as hypocritical and perhaps it is. So I might have made a mistake. The thing is though, I'm not a reviewer, I'm an EE.

For all those who think bad reviews do have a place in high end audio, some of you who are on this thread and have given me some heat on this, what do you think I should do about my knowledge of SETs? Should I be honest about their failings or just be quiet?

So I tend to look at things differently. For one thing, I've noticed that the way amps make distortion affects how people perceive the amp; that quite literally the distortion spectrum of the amp and how that changes dynamically with power output (and to a limited degree the output impedance of the amp and how that interacts with the loudspeaker) is the 'sonic signature' of that amp.

Its the difference we hear between amps.

Once you understand that fact, as a designer that opens an access to designing equipment to be musical rather than just specs on paper. Its no longer about having to have a certain kind of amp to get a certain kind of sound. Of course, keeping distortion down is important if you want to hear greater detail; but what distortion you get should be of the kind to which the ear is the least sensitive, which are the lower ordered harmonics, the 2nd and 3rd.

I get the charm of an SET. Its very much like hopping on a 1940 Indian 741 Scout and making your way down some quiet country roads. Who cares that you can go a lot faster, take the turns with less worry, use less gas and oil doing it and make less noise with greater comfort on a modern motorbike? Its all about the charm of the older tech doing its thing. But let's be clear: in the motorbike world no-one would consider making a flat head motor these days like what's in the Indian 741. SETs made a comeback for a reason (an engineering reason). I find it really peculiarly human that the people that are the most critical of my views of SETs seem at the same time seem the least interested in what that reason is.
 
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We're on the same page with all of this except point 6) of course. I've given a number of examples that show how bad reviews can have an unethical underpinning. I have plenty more. So I don't see how 'ludicrous' is at all descriptive; in my experience quite the opposite. I sat at dinner with a distributor and the publisher of a major magazine (who didn't know who I was) and listened to them talk back and forth about reviews and an advertising contract all in the same breath! I'd been told by friends at ARC to avoid that magazine because unless I could place an advertising contract, I'd get a bad review. Nothing ludicrous about it at all.
Thank you for confirming the other representations.

Oh, yes, of course, if a review is tainted by some ethical breach, that is one thing. My point is that there is nothing inherently unethical about a negative review
 
Thank you for confirming the other representations.

Oh, yes, of course, if a review is tainted by some ethical breach, that is one thing. My point is that there is nothing inherently unethical about a negative review
I'm OK with that. That is why I used the words 'can be' in the title of this thread.

The problem I have is over the last 35 years I've only seen one that didn't have an ethical breach. It was a review by Art Dudley in his magazine about a multi-driver crossover-less loudspeaker. His assessment was the same as ours. I never spoke to anyone about that speaker. Art's review pretty well killed the investment the designer had in his work. While it did seem honest, I really wonder if that guy might have come up with something had he not gotten shot down so early on.
 
For all those who think bad reviews do have a place in high end audio, some of you who are on this thread and have given me some heat on this, what do you think I should do about my knowledge of SETs? Should I be honest about their failings or just be quiet?

So I tend to look at things differently. For one thing, I've noticed that the way amps make distortion affects how people perceive the amp; that quite literally the distortion spectrum of the amp and how that changes dynamically with power output (and to a limited degree the output impedance of the amp and how that interacts with the loudspeaker) is the 'sonic signature' of that amp.

Its the difference we hear between amps.

Ralph, I say carry on with the technical talk and your subjective opinion of SET amps in general. It is why I wish there were more negative reviews. I want to know the positives and the limitations. In my own case, I heard my SET amps on four speakers before buying them and chose to buy them because of their sound. I then chose the appropriate speakers to pair with them. Of course I would like to experiment with a pair of sensitive subs and crossover, but my current room is not big enough and I am very happy now anyway.

So I say, bring on the negative reviews. You are honest. So are some reviewers. The customer is best served by knowing the good, the bad, and the rest.

I get the charm of an SET. Its very much like hopping on a 1940 Indian 741 Scout and making your way down some quiet country roads. Who cares that you can go a lot faster, take the turns with less worry, use less gas and oil doing it and make less noise with greater comfort on a modern motorbike? Its all about the charm of the older tech doing its thing. But let's be clear: in the motorbike world no-one would consider making a flat head motor these days like what's in the Indian 741. SETs made a comeback for a reason (an engineering reason). I find it really peculiarly human that the people that are the most critical of my views of SETs seem at the same time seem the least interested in what that reason is.

I am interested in learning what the reason is. I am new to SETs, and have not thought much about how or why they made a comeback. I just do not follow the history of the industry. You have piqued my interest. Thank you.
 
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Here's some clues:

No one, or almost no one, is going to write a review saying "This is a poor product, do not buy it." No one, or almost no one, is going to heep high praise upon a poorly performing product. If you read such of either be wary of the author's motives. 1. Gauge the author's enthusiasm for the product. 2. Pay close attention to what the author does not say about the product. 3. Look for explicit musical examples that are given as evidence for a description -- if you have the recording try the passage for yourself. 4. Pay attention to comparisons with other products. 5. If the author obtains the product from other than an authorized source, be sceptical. 6.. If the author purchases the review sample that is a good indicator of his belief in the product. 7. If there are no reviews of a product after it has been released for, say, 6 months, that could be a tell.

I have no interest spending my time and energy with a component deserving a poor performance review.
 
@ Ron

Me neither .
If the reviewer explains why he thinks so in
a correct way and has no false claims / intent.
One reason i never read magazines any more is that they lack negative reviews.
People need a bit of drama
A reviewer is just a human being with his /her own expectations regarding SR (sound reproduction )
SQ of audioproducts will always be a point of disagreement and why not so.
Negative reviews will simply reflect that

I think a manufacturer would take offense if things are not being represented correctly , technical aspects for example .

Plus there is the fact that a lot of manufacturers have a lot of advertizing money on the table but thats another discussion.
 
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