Is criticism to be frowned upon?

[ddk]

This thread turned into what it is now because people weren't given a chance to hash it out in the other one. I don't care about who's right or wrong nor do I mind nor object to most of what's said in this thread, I think that its actually good. For those speaking in general terms about decorum, respect, direction of forum, humility, community, etc. should recognize that those are your personal values and not that of a collective, so please speak in first person and don't preach. A Forum isn't a community, its a hangout where people from very different backgrounds, cultures and "Sensibilities" come to spend time, respect and understand that. I'm writing this because the end result of threads like this has been heavy handed moderation! Personally I find nothing more nauseating than one adult trying to impose values of a few on everyone. IMO Moderators deleting posts, i.e. censorship is much worse than any exchange. You deny the people involved the opportunity to work it out and deny other members the ability to read and analyze for themselves. Please refrain from imposing a state of KUMBAYA!


david

 

[NorthStar]

Oh boy, here it goes. Another objectivist/subjectivist discussion. Can't you guys grow up and realize that the two can co-exist? One party feels threatened by the other and feels the forum is 'pushed' into a certain direction away from their favorite one. If you don't like the 'objectivist' posts, don't read them, and if you don't like the 'subjectivist' posts, don't read them.

Grow up: nobody and nobody's views 'threaten' anybody here. The forum doesn't have to lean one way or the other. Get over it.

That!

 

[NorthStar]

How can you possibly make that assertion? My goodness - the narcissism. Extraordinary.

I do not think you could ever describe me as close minded, and I certainly would not describe Mike as close minded. Nor Andre. Nor Amir even. What is possibly wrong with describing what you are hearing.

Blizzard I invite you to do 4 things:
1. Post under your real name, not a nom de plum. I do, Mike does, Andre does.None of us hide behind an assumed identity.
2. Post photo's of your system and listening room, musical tastes and interests.
3. Describe to us your experience to help us appreciate your advertised genius.
4. Bring to market a product and let that do your talking.

Actually you do, and that is the problem.

Good morning Andrew. :b

1. A username means dick, a real name means it's you. No rules, we're all free to pick the name we like. My name is Bob and I like NorthStar; it's Canadian.
2. No rules to show your stuff, some people don't mind and are proud, others are more reserved and that's their prerogative, put me in. Again, no rules.
Each step in time...music taste, life's interests...each person has its own way to live life the way they are comfy with. Live, let live, and respect the differences in all of us. Don't try to impose people your serenity, your peace, your religion, your belief, your life experience, your wisdom, your age. I believe that, very.
3. You should start a thread and ask questions about audio, not about the person; audio will reveal the person automatically.
4. People do what they do, you do the same. You have no power in ruling others, they are free to live their life; accept them as they come...nirvana.

I say this with the utmost respect and directly from the heart, mind and soul.

Bests & regards,
Robert J. A. C.

 

[NorthStar]

When the Paris attacks went down, my family and I were sleeping a few km’s away in the 5th arrondissement.

I came away very disturbed by those events. Not because my family or myself as Europeans were the “targets”, or were necessarily even in danger. I was disturbed by my own apathy in understanding the world I lived in and how to respond to it.

It would have been convenient (and knee jerk) for me to look for an easy target to direct my feelings of horror and despair toward. Militant radicalized fundamentalist terrorists would be the obvious choice.

But upon reflection, I’ve had to own up to the reality that scapegoating an individual, or indeed the ideology they represent is a half-measure at best.

This is an open forum allowing contributions from members in which the colour of our skin, our sexual, religious and political preferences, our wealth, status and body fat percentage are all irrelevant. That is a great, great thing from my perspective. It means that the only things we are judged on and asked to take responsibility for are the words we write and the attitudes and ideas we express.

But while Mike, Andrew and Andre might all have salient points that perhaps should be considered I’d like to make a distinction between two things often confused and conflated in discussions such as this.

Is Amir the problem? Is Blizzard? Am I?

Well, it would be convenient to think so. Certainly, by removing the individual, we’d no longer have to deal with whatever it is that annoys us.

But if I’ve gleaned anything in my forty-two times ‘round the sun, it’s that individuals are easy to kill. Chop off the head - done.

Culture? Oh wow, culture is a whole ‘nuther kettle of fish. Chop of the head, and another one grows in its place. See, if Amir is the problem, then the solution is simple. He gets cut from participation in the forum. If Blizzard is the problem, then we do the same thing.

But culture is more difficult to define, and therefore, more difficult to determine how it affects the individual and how the individual affects it. But my strong conviction is that we have a responsibility to work that out in whatever capacity we have.

I’d like to suggest that there is a clash of cultures (with apologies to Camus, Fukuyama, Said and Chomsky) prevalent on WBF (and no, it’s not the subjective/objective divide), and without identifying our part in shaping that culture - and most significantly, examining our own contribution through the attitude we express via our language and choice of words - we will only keep culling members until there is no one left.

Is the value of a forum defined by its diversity or its uniformity? Personally, I think Phelonious Ponk is one of the most valuable members here, and yet I disagree with almost every post he makes (hi, Tim!). Tim, from my perspective, however, has learned the art of understanding his worldview, articulating it without feeling too precious about defending it, and as far as I can make out, without seeking to remove the “offending head” that disagrees with him. Total kudos.

Recently, I asked another member to consider whether his choice of words could have been better chosen. I explained my reasons for my post (perhaps inelegantly), and attempted to contextualize it. He told me to go jump (hi, Andre!), and I completely support his right to do so. Modifying other people’s attitudes, beliefs or behaviour is of no interest to me.

What I’ve learned from my exchanges with Tim and Andre (and life in general) is that challenging other peoples ideas and attitudes is valid, but not always constructive unless they themselves are aware of the culture they inhabit and the effect it has on them and they have on it.

Amir, I could write a long list of things you could change for the betterment of the forum. But I could write a long list about most other people in my life too. The only thing that produces long-term change is self-reflection.

Perhaps rather than asking Mike, or Andrew, or Andre or anyone else what you could change in regards to the direction of the forum, can I suggest you ask yourself, “what could I do to influence the culture of the forum that sees more people want to participate and limit the amount of good people leaving the forum upset with the way they’re treated”? If we can influence a culture change via a process of self-reflection instead of knee-jerk self-justification, perhaps we would not only have a forum is which we enjoy participating more, we might find less to criticize one another for. After all, nothing in my experience suggests true leadership more than leading by example, and the ability of that individual to engage in a relationship of self-reflexivity.

Lest you feel I am singling you out, please know I personally feel we could all benefit from asking ourselves the same question: “How am I influencing the culture of the forum?”

For my part, posting less was part of my strategy for limiting the amount of invective that I let so easily flow from my keyboard, giving me time to consider my replies and temper my arrogance and ego. Nevertheless, I am sure there are still some who consider my contributions to be of little or no value. But I hope I am not the same person I was when I joined the forum; that would be a great shame.

Best read of the day, thank you.

 

[Ron Party]

Alright, I'll answer: there are many acceptable ways. In order to recognize that, it just takes a bit of tolerance beyond one's own narrow viewpoint.

IMO, excellent answer!

 

[NorthStar]

It's human nature to take things personally rather than to step back and consider the argument itself.

For many people I tend to agree with your statement. But not for everyone: Life's experience can teach some of us the true value of existence. And that too is part of human nature.

It's another subject in itself; human psychology applied with all various circumstances. Who is right and who is wrong? ...It is a balance I believe, and it's spiritual inside each one of us. We make our own peace with the karma of existence, in life and in death. ...I believe.

Anyway, here @ WBF there are people from all life's venues and of different age groups. Exactly the very same as in real life.

___________

Is this WB forum public or un secte oculte reservé juste aux "hi-end audiomaniacs"?

 

[Bill Hart]

I don't post here that often, but have been a member of this forum for a while. I gotta say, you guys really get tied up in knots over stuff that shouldn't matter. I have no real axe to grind here, have no idea of the history that apparently precipitated this thread, but if someone is violating terms of use or forum protocol-- whatever that is-- they should be gone. If they are not, and their posts are offensive, just ignore them. Why spend the energy on such constant introspection about the meaning of everything? Life is too short. If somebody is or isn't contributing substance, that becomes apparent- there is no need to call them out on it or make it personal; chances are, if the posts are worthless, others will react the same way, and simply ignore them. Sometimes, there is a grain of truth even in the most off the wall stuff, so there's that too.
I've been on various Internet fora for a long time. In a previous life, I devoted a lot of energy to cars, and through a couple fora, met some great people who remain friends today.
Internet forums have cycles, and folks leave, new blood comes in, things change, and there are ups and downs. Contribute what you can, learn what you can, and enjoy the ride.
PS: though I don't make money in the audio industry, I know a lot of folks in it, and many of them just avoid the chat groups altogether. I think it is the nature of the beast- folks like to argue, there is ego involved, and it isn't always easy to convey your thoughts in writing in a way that doesn't sound snarky. I suspect, if many of you were actually in the same room, you would probably do just fine. But, the Internet makes it too easy to shoot first and think later.
Perhaps this post is an example of that, but I just think a lot of the angst and self-reflection here is unnecessary or if necessary, isn't really something that should be constantly batted about as a topic of discussion. It's like talking about how you are going to talk about a subject; it becomes an endless hall of mirrors. I'm not suggesting censorship, but perhaps some of the stuff folks are airing here is better left for each participant to think about privately and use their discretion before they post. Dunno. Just hate to see all of you torturing yourselves....

 

[amirm]

OK guys let's make something constructive out of the thread. I have a problem right now. I have senior members of the forum threatening to quit. And they go in threads and voice objection to the forum, the very existence of the thread, and most of a time, me to be blame.

I also have others who say, "oh my god, I hope these senior people don't leave."

Should these people leave, I am primed to be the person that pushed them out.

As best as I can figure out, these are their reasons for saying they may quit:

1. Amir as the site co-founder must not look like he is supportive of any audio camp. Put more directly, Amir should not post anything that is engineering, blind testing, research oriented, posts. Same folks have been extremely supportive however when I take on the objectivists.

2. That there are a few individuals they like to see banned or otherwise silenced. The names come and go. This minute might be Blizzard, the next a few of our other senior objectivists. BTW, when PeterB left, he said he would come back if we gave him the power to ban up to 10 people. That should give you a sense of how real these requests are.

3. That I am arrogant, obnoxious, egotistical and most hated/"reviled" member on the forum.

4. That I am destroying the forum. The list of people they say I have driven out of the forum is in dozens if not more than a 100 (I forget the actual number used but it is large).

5. That I am "just an engineer" and not an audiophile. And therefore I don't "get" what the hobby is about.

6. That I am after making money and that is why I have done what I have done.

7. That I am in favor of a "wild west" type of forum where anything goes as to accomplish #6.

Trying to follow Jazzdoc's advice to state the other side's views as expressed to me .

During this period, I have read the most insensitive, personal, insulting, rude, obnoxious messages both in the forum and especially in private than my entire life before that. Some of the people most dear to me have stated the above and conducted themselves in this manner.

Fortunately I am able to stay unemotional and focus on the principals that I think are right, ethical and fair. Without telling you what those are for now, the outcome as seen by the people raising the issues is that nothing has been done for their concerns. So they are going to continue to escalate, use threats of quitting, interrupting forums, addressing me personally and privately in the manners I have spoken above. They are frustrated and every means in their power to get action.

My question now to the membership is, do you want the forum to change to comply with the list of requests and complaints above? How valid do you find those complaints? And here, I am not asking the people who have created the list. I already know your feedback. I am interested in hearing from the larger membership.

Ultimately we as a forum need to make a decision. The worst thing is indecision. We either cater to these change requests or we tell them it is what it is and if you leave, that is just fine.

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Bob, I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick, I was merely inviting not directing, and of course I agree with all you say. Blizzard made certain statements, and I was just trying to understand him better without trawling through 900 odd posts. But no matter. What is Northstar, by the way?

Yes, wasn't that a mature and reflective post by 853guy? Very thoughtful.

I also agree with Bill above. Usually I ignore posters that grate or I don't find add value to what I am enjoying reading (mainly) or contributing too. Blizzard is a little different. He is relentless in pursuing his perceived superiority of knowledge set and imposing his views of digital audio on others, as Mike rightly points out, sometimes helpfully and sometimes not but usually in a condescending and to my observation high handed way. I don't think can read, or contribute to any digital thread without him turning it into "that is rubbish and I know better" analysis.

While only a minor (and new member) here, I have been lurking for years, reading and learning. I do think it is important to observe the same standard of behaviour online as you would in person. Our behaviour to others defines us, it is after all the essence of humanity. To my observation, the provocative behaviour of certain posters, Blizzard included, do not assist in respectful dialogue. I don't find him, in particular, and to a lessor extent Amir, someone who adds value to my experience here. I do find Mike's input and experience very valuable.

As you say, my solution is simple, leave it to others to play in this sandpit. Personally I find the whole objectivity - subjectivity theme tiresome, and something I have zero interest in. Not because I do not understand it, but because I enjoy listening to music first last and in between.

In any event I wish you all well, even Blizzard, and shall leave you all to it. As Bill says, and I think I am correctly paraphrasing him here - life is to too short to sweat the small stuff.

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Amir
My friend, and I hope I may call you that, I don't agree with your analysis of what has occurred at all. I feel you mischaracterise it as a personal insulting attack on you. It isn't. I found on other audio forums a separate subforum for objective and technical discussion to be particularly valuable. Abit like blind testing - a debate that is forever circular.

I also feel you are hopelessly compromised in your ability to be a moderator and poster, as it is apparent to me at least you are unable to separate yourself from your moderating duties. And that is just because, I suggest, you are passionate in your beliefs. And I actually really liked your posts a year or so ago - you were humourous and self depreciating, in the main. I am serious when I say you are better than this.

Please do not escalate this, as you apparently seem to want to do. For what it is worth, in my view Mike is absolutely correct in what he says, and you most certainly are not. Please just apologise to Mike, and lets all return to regular programming. As for Blizzard, he is in my judgement a young man who is desperate to be noticed and validated. What he craves is attention and recognition. Well he is getting that, but not in the way perhaps he wants.

I say this as a relative outsider, with no axe to grind. This is not a forum I have much attachment to, and have seen all this before elsewhere.

In any event, I leave you with the thoughts above and will now bow out and get on with my day. For me, this morning, Bach Partita's have much more interest than posting here.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Good morning Andrew. :b

1. A username means dick, a real name means it's you. No rules, we're all free to pick the name we like. My name is Bob and I like NorthStar; it's Canadian.
2. No rules to show your stuff, some people don't mind and are proud, others are more reserved and that's their prerogative, put me in. Again, no rules.
Each step in time...music taste, life's interests...each person has its own way to live life the way they are comfy with. Live, let live, and respect the differences in all of us. Don't try to impose people your serenity, your peace, your religion, your belief, your life experience, your wisdom, your age. I believe that, very.
3. You should start a thread and ask questions about audio, not about the person; audio will reveal the person automatically.
4. People do what they do, you do the same. You have no power in ruling others, they are free to live their life; accept them as they come...nirvana.

I say this with the utmost respect and directly from the heart, mind and soul.

Bests & regards,
Robert J. A. C.

Hi. I'm Tim Farney. I post as Phelonious Ponk because it protects my privacy on the internet, but mostly because it's a much cooler name than Tim Farney. I may name my next band Phelonious Ponk to get it out of my system.

Tim

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

Thank you Tim, it is a pleasure to meet you. I really enjoyed your play on words with your username, as it happens. Very clever.

 

[NorthStar]

Bob, I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick, I was merely inviting not directing, and of course I agree with all you say. Blizzard made certain statements, and I was just trying to understand him better without trawling through 900 odd posts. But no matter. What is Northstar, by the way?

Yes, wasn't that a mature and reflective post by 853guy? Very thoughtful.

I also agree with Bill above. Usually I ignore posters that grate or I don't find add value to what I am enjoying reading (mainly) or contributing too. Blizzard is a little different. He is relentless in pursuing his perceived superiority of knowledge set and imposing his views of digital audio on others, as Mike rightly points out, sometimes helpfully and sometimes not but usually in a condescending and to my observation high handed way. I don't think can read, or contribute to any digital thread without him turning it into "that is rubbish and I know better" analysis.

While only a minor (and new member) here, I have been lurking for years, reading and learning. I do think it is important to observe the same standard of behaviour online as you would in person. Our behaviour to others defines us, it is after all the essence of humanity. To my observation, the provocative behaviour of certain posters, Blizzard included, do not assist in respectful dialogue. I don't find him, in particular, and to a lessor extent Amir, someone who adds value to my experience here. I do find Mike's input and experience very valuable.

As you say, my solution is simple, leave it to others to play in this sandpit. Personally I find the whole objectivity - subjectivity theme tiresome, and something I have zero interest in. Not because I do not understand it, but because I enjoy listening to music first last and in between.

In any event I wish you all well, even Blizzard, and shall leave you all to it. As Bill says, and I think I am correctly paraphrasing him here - life is to too short to sweat the small stuff.

I need to quote you because it was the last post of the previous page; normally in a discussion of the moment I don't quote.
I was also @ another site, and came back here specifically to delete my post, the one with the 4 points in it.
But no use now as you read it and replied to it.

? http://www.nsaero.com/ ... ;-)

________

¤ I believe that it is when everyone try to give directions, recommendations, suggestions, ... that we lose our touch.
I like listening to music too. Do I advice others to do the same? ...Lol that's truly up to them, and what I post is totally free; no advice, no recommendation, no suggestion, no direction home (Bob Dylan). We all vibrates differently, and that's the magic of life.

I don't like personal matters, but they are real. Mike is contributing a lot, and I don't care about what people think of his style.
Amir is a super duder, the type you cannot find @ every corner's street. He is the glue of our electronics.
Mike Lavigne is a super cool guy; friendly, inviting, highly respectable, fantastic to learn from, musically involving to the highest plateau.

I can mention all the great qualities I see in everyone here, but I won't because the forum doesn't have enough space (data) for multiple encyclopedias.

Andrew, share with us the good sides of you, because I want to discover them along with you and my own sharing.
Leave Mike alone, he's doing just fine in the book of life. You don't have to be stuck with anyone; the real force is in you only to rise above it all.
I never met you, I never met Mike, I never met Amir, you never met me; but we all meet here. And here are 5,000 members. They all have the goods.
What's yours?

? http://earthsky.org/brightest-stars/polaris-the-present-day-north-star

(((?))) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northstar

* http://www.northstar-audio.co.uk/

 

[NorthStar]

Deleted (accidental double post).

<<>> For me, North Star is a woman, thee woman, the one everyone can find their way through when they're lost.
It's the North Star in the sky, that gives the clearest/most accurate direction to all lost mountain hikers and ocean sailors.

And my real name is Robert Joseph Armand Andre C.

 

[Al M.]

As best as I can figure out, these are their reasons for saying they may quit:

1. Amir as the site co-founder must not look like he is supportive of any audio camp. Put more directly, Amir should not post anything that is engineering, blind testing, research oriented, posts. Same folks have been extremely supportive however when I take on the objectivists.

While I enjoy reading about measurements -- and I have learned from your posts, Amir -- I like the 'subjective' side of the hobby a lot. But what these people say is entirely silly. Of course you can post whatever you want, just like your co-founder Steve who is more in the 'subjective' camp can post whatever he want. You both are passionate about it, after all. If you weren't, why found WBF? If people think that the tent of WBF is not large enough to accommodate both subjectivists and objectivists then they are simply immature whiners. If they want to quit, just let them.

2. That there are a few individuals they like to see banned or otherwise silenced. The names come and go. This minute might be Blizzard, the next a few of our other senior objectivists. BTW, when PeterB left, he said he would come back if we gave him the power to ban up to 10 people. That should give you a sense of how real these requests are.

Well, that PeterB is an immature man is obvious. At this point, unlike in some instances in the past, PeterB included, I really see nobody on this board obnoxious enough to deserve a ban. If people want to quit because nobody is banned, just let them. We don't need immature whiners around here.

3. That I am arrogant, obnoxious, egotistical and most hated/"reviled" member on the forum.

Nonsense, you have proven otherwise. And I don't hate you either, in fact, I enjoyed our exchanges so far.

4. That I am destroying the forum. The list of people they say I have driven out of the forum is in dozens if not more than a 100 (I forget the actual number used but it is large).

5. That I am "just an engineer" and not an audiophile. And therefore I don't "get" what the hobby is about.

6. That I am after making money and that is why I have done what I have done.

7. That I am in favor of a "wild west" type of forum where anything goes as to accomplish #6.

Nonsense. If people really think above things then they are complete idiot whiners. If they want to leave, let them.

Trying to follow Jazzdoc's advice to state the other side's views as expressed to me .

During this period, I have read the most insensitive, personal, insulting, rude, obnoxious messages both in the forum and especially in private than my entire life before that. Some of the people most dear to me have stated the above and conducted themselves in this manner.

Fortunately I am able to stay unemotional and focus on the principals that I think are right, ethical and fair. Without telling you what those are for now, the outcome as seen by the people raising the issues is that nothing has been done for their concerns. So they are going to continue to escalate, use threats of quitting, interrupting forums, addressing me personally and privately in the manners I have spoken above. They are frustrated and every means in their power to get action.

I am sorry to hear that the immature whiners have made your life and in particular your Inbox miserable.

My question now to the membership is, do you want the forum to change to comply with the list of requests and complaints above? How valid do you find those complaints? And here, I am not asking the people who have created the list. I already know your feedback. I am interested in hearing from the larger membership.

By now you know my answer. No, you should not comply. Just let the immature whiners leave. I've had enough of this nonsense.

Ultimately we as a forum need to make a decision. The worst thing is indecision. We either cater to these change requests or we tell them it is what it is and if you leave, that is just fine.

It is what it is, and if they want to leave then let them leave. It's just fine, really.

I am, however, confident that all the members who have made valuable contributions to WBF, and those are many, will man up to themselves and decide to stay, regardless. Please, Amir, ignore all the requests.

 

[FrantzM]

While I enjoy reading about measurements -- and I have learned from your posts -- I like the 'subjective' side of the hobby a lot. But what these people say is entirely silly. Of course you can post whatever you want, just like your co-founder Steve who is more in the 'subjective' camp can post whatever he want. If people think that the tent of WBF is not large enough to accommodate both subjectivists and objectivists then they are simply immature whiners. If they want to quit, just let them.



Well, that PeterB is an immature man is obvious. At this point, unlike in some instances in the past, I really see nobody on this board obnoxious enough to deserve a ban. If people want to quit because nobody is banned, just let them. We don't need immature whiners around here.



Nonsense, you have proven otherwise. And I don't hate you either, in fact, I enjoyed our exchanges so far.



Nonsense. If people really think above things then they are complete idiot whiners. If they want to leave, let them.



I am sorry to hear that the immature whiners have made your life and in particular your Inbox miserable.



By now you know my answer. No, you should not comply. Just let the immature whiners leave. I've had enough of this nonsense.



It is what it is, and if they want to leave then let them leave. It's just fine, really.

I am, however, confident that all the members who have made valuable contributions to WBF, and those are many, will man up to themselves and decide to stay.

Whatever Al said ....

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

OK guys let's make something constructive out of the thread. I have a problem right now. I have senior members of the forum threatening to quit. And they go in threads and voice objection to the forum, the very existence of the thread, and most of a time, me to be blame.

I also have others who say, "oh my god, I hope these senior people don't leave."

Should these people leave, I am primed to be the person that pushed them out.

As best as I can figure out, these are their reasons for saying they may quit:

1. Amir as the site co-founder must not look like he is supportive of any audio camp. Put more directly, Amir should not post anything that is engineering, blind testing, research oriented, posts. Same folks have been extremely supportive however when I take on the objectivists.

2. That there are a few individuals they like to see banned or otherwise silenced. The names come and go. This minute might be Blizzard, the next a few of our other senior objectivists. BTW, when PeterB left, he said he would come back if we gave him the power to ban up to 10 people. That should give you a sense of how real these requests are.

3. That I am arrogant, obnoxious, egotistical and most hated/"reviled" member on the forum.

4. That I am destroying the forum. The list of people they say I have driven out of the forum is in dozens if not more than a 100 (I forget the actual number used but it is large).

5. That I am "just an engineer" and not an audiophile. And therefore I don't "get" what the hobby is about.

6. That I am after making money and that is why I have done what I have done.

7. That I am in favor of a "wild west" type of forum where anything goes as to accomplish #6.

Trying to follow Jazzdoc's advice to state the other side's views as expressed to me .

During this period, I have read the most insensitive, personal, insulting, rude, obnoxious messages both in the forum and especially in private than my entire life before that. Some of the people most dear to me have stated the above and conducted themselves in this manner.

Fortunately I am able to stay unemotional and focus on the principals that I think are right, ethical and fair. Without telling you what those are for now, the outcome as seen by the people raising the issues is that nothing has been done for their concerns. So they are going to continue to escalate, use threats of quitting, interrupting forums, addressing me personally and privately in the manners I have spoken above. They are frustrated and every means in their power to get action.

My question now to the membership is, do you want the forum to change to comply with the list of requests and complaints above? How valid do you find those complaints? And here, I am not asking the people who have created the list. I already know your feedback. I am interested in hearing from the larger membership.

Ultimately we as a forum need to make a decision. The worst thing is indecision. We either cater to these change requests or we tell them it is what it is and if you leave, that is just fine.

You're going to lose members either way, Amir. I know if WBF decides to ban posts containing data that challenges the beliefs of some members, and that's what this is really about, I'll be gone. I think there are a few others who would not stay under those conditions. You may be one of them yourself. But I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are forums on the net where data that challenges audiophile beliefs is not tolerated. There are forums where the expression of opinions that are not supported by data are not tolerated. This is the only one I know of that welcomes both points of view and all the subtle combinations of the two, and manages to remain reasonably civil. I'd miss it.

Tim

 

[Al M.]

You're going to lose members either way, Amir. I know if WBF decides to ban posts containing data that challenges the beliefs of some members, and that's what this is really about, I'll be gone. I think there are a few others who would not stay under those conditions. You may be one of them yourself. But I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are forums on the net where data that challenges audiophile beliefs is not tolerated. There are forums where the expression of opinions that are not supported by data are not tolerated. This is the only one I know of that welcomes both points of view and all the subtle combinations of the two, and manages to remain reasonably civil. I'd miss it.

Tim

+1. Well said.

 

[ack]

@Amir - I'll be brief; I am with Al, Frantz and Tim: don't change a thing; and one friendly piece of advise: do spend more time listening - some criticism has been valid, in my mind; "science", as presented sometimes, flat out doesn't match or explain what we hear, so something's wrong somewhere along the way...

 

[NorthStar]

While I enjoy reading about measurements -- and I have learned from your posts, Amir -- I like the 'subjective' side of the hobby a lot. But what these people say is entirely silly. Of course you can post whatever you want, just like your co-founder Steve who is more in the 'subjective' camp can post whatever he want. You both are passionate about it, after all. If you weren't, why found WBF? If people think that the tent of WBF is not large enough to accommodate both subjectivists and objectivists then they are simply immature whiners. If they want to quit, just let them.
Well, that PeterB is an immature man is obvious. At this point, unlike in some instances in the past, PeterB included, I really see nobody on this board obnoxious enough to deserve a ban. If people want to quit because nobody is banned, just let them. We don't need immature whiners around here.
Nonsense, you have proven otherwise. And I don't hate you either, in fact, I enjoyed our exchanges so far.
Nonsense. If people really think above things then they are complete idiot whiners. If they want to leave, let them.
I am sorry to hear that the immature whiners have made your life and in particular your Inbox miserable.
By now you know my answer. No, you should not comply. Just let the immature whiners leave. I've had enough of this nonsense.
It is what it is, and if they want to leave then let them leave. It's just fine, really.
I am, however, confident that all the members who have made valuable contributions to WBF, and those are many, will man up to themselves and decide to stay, regardless. Please, Amir, ignore all the requests.

Amir, I don't know this Al guy (never met him in person, only read a bunch), but everything he just said above is right on!

And I'm 99.99% certain that you already knew that everything he said to be the best truth. :b

___________

* If my wife decides to leave me for another man, she can go too; I won't enslave her to me.