Is criticism to be frowned upon?

[PeterA]

Apart from agreeing with you, David, I want to second a particularly important point that you make: "And don't delete other people's posts!!!!"

My posts in other threads were deleted by Amir without explanation. I asked Steve about them and he disagreed about their deletion. It must have been something personal. I still like some parts of this forum, but it is not as enjoyable, or as informative, as it once was for me. And I can trace it to a specific change in tone by particular members. That's fine. I simply spend less time here and more time elsewhere.

I do enjoy the music and analog threads on AVShowroomsforum and keep in touch with Myles who was a great contributor here, once.

I did read that there is more recent interest in the music forums here. That is a good sign.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

First of all that's not accusation of any kind and no one made it conditional. This is what I wrote in response to his request for opinions, how is this or anything others wrote accusatory?



david

I wasn't talking about you, personally, David. I was talking about this stuff:

As best as I can figure out, these are their reasons for saying they may quit:

1. Amir as the site co-founder must not look like he is supportive of any audio camp. Put more directly, Amir should not post anything that is engineering, blind testing, research oriented, posts. Same folks have been extremely supportive however when I take on the objectivists.

2. That there are a few individuals they like to see banned or otherwise silenced. The names come and go. This minute might be Blizzard, the next a few of our other senior objectivists. BTW, when PeterB left, he said he would come back if we gave him the power to ban up to 10 people. That should give you a sense of how real these requests are.

3. That I am arrogant, obnoxious, egotistical and most hated/"reviled" member on the forum.

4. That I am destroying the forum. The list of people they say I have driven out of the forum is in dozens if not more than a 100 (I forget the actual number used but it is large).

5. That I am "just an engineer" and not an audiophile. And therefore I don't "get" what the hobby is about.

6. That I am after making money and that is why I have done what I have done.

7. That I am in favor of a "wild west" type of forum where anything goes as to accomplish #6.

Plenty of finger-pointing to be found there. The reference to only moderating TOS violations in threads he's involved in actually came from another mod, Tom. And I don't think he was accusing Amir of doing so. My apologies, Tom. Here's the post:

Agreed Al, microstrip and John. I think everyone is in complete agreement that a moderator should not moderate a thread that they are intimately involved in. With the only exception of a member clearly breaking one of the TOS rules. "Steering" members to cater to a moderators wishes so that said moderator can get his agenda out is an abuse of power and should not ever be tolerated. I do believe most, if not all of us could agree to that.

I don't think everyone is in agreement, though, Tom. I think there are some here who would like to see those who disagree with them moderated right off the forum. I think that's been made pretty clear in some of the communication Amir shared above.

Tim

 

[thedudeabides]

My posts in other threads were deleted by Amir without explanation.

That happened several times with me and another moderator. And it wasn't Steve or Amir.

 

[ddk]

Call me old school, but if you walked into Dads house and talked some trash you would be laid out on the floor wondering what happened to you. And thereafter, you WOULD follow the rules.

In case you missed it Tom most of us are adults here not children to be monitored or laid out on the floor as you were!!!

david

 

[ddk]

I wasn't talking about you, personally, David. I was talking about this stuff:

Plenty of finger-pointing to be found there. The reference to only moderating TOS violations in threads he's involved in actually came from another mod, Tom. And I don't think he was accusing Amir of doing so. My apologies, Tom. Here's the post:

I don't think everyone is in agreement, though, Tom. I think there are some here who would like to see those who disagree with them moderated right off the forum. I think that's been made pretty clear in some of the communication Amir shared above.

Tim

All I read on the forums was some venting going on with Amir and a few others, I don't see anything wrong with it, this is how people work out their differences and no one should be above criticism. I didn't see anyone calling for Amir to leave the site and I'm not keen on any prima donnas threatening to leave if Amir or anyone else doesn't behave according to their wishes.

david

 

[DaveyF]

A while back I was the focus of a lot of insulting and unpleasant name calling and insinuations. The thread was allowed to continue because the name callers were believed to ultimately burn themselves out. This is in fact what generally seemed to happen. I believe the fact that I did not engage these same people was the best course of action for me and this forum. Amir, was very helpful in assisting me with this resolution.

There are always going to be some people who have a 'thing' against others, that's the nature of the web forum exposure....however, as many have stated before, a 'thicker skin' should be valued. This is NOT easy, as I found out in my example above, but I learnt that in the end it can definitely be beneficial....and to all.

All of the above, IMHO.... ( which I would suspect if more of used this term ( and I use it a LOT) would perhaps bring down some of the angst)...

 

[Blizzard]

First, no more does Amir need to go anywhere than Steve does. In fact, their yin and yang does help this forum, however, personally, I have seem Steve sometimes be a bit rude to his partner in print on this forum, and that, while human, INVITES sniping. Yep, we all make mistakes and we learn. In fact, I have also seen Steve moderate a persons abuse of the TOS by explaining how it comes off, and that person did change his style. I had never seen that style before and will not forget it.

Amir, I recommend you stop asking the masses here for what you ought to do different. And here is why, you do not violate terms of service, you post how you see things and nearly all the time your patience is that of a Saint.

For the membership, as has been said before, post about the post, not the poster. Personally, I would like to see heavy moderation here, extremely heavy, the first time any poster violates that rule, and make this place a place where respect is demanded, and you will get it. If you don't demand respect and the rule of law, things get pear shaped real quick. It seems as humans we need some sort of rules to follow to get along and exist in some sort of harmony, well, by gosh, enforce the rules here Amir and Steve and tell the person what they did violate so others see why the person is punished or temporarily banned or whatever.

Call me old school, but if you walked into Dads house and talked some trash you would be laid out on the floor wondering what happened to you. And thereafter, you WOULD follow the rules.

I challenge you moderators to moderate and let those who have to disrespect the poster instead of the post open their own door to the way out of this forum. But, I do think you need to explain what was said in the post that you are moderating so we all know whats going on.

By the way, I don't care what "way" this forum goes, it does not matter, if everyone follows the damned rules it can go any and all ways any and all the time!!!

And all this crying about people leaving the forum, they come back too. Does anyone here have a right to attack the poster? Is anybody above the law? As Tim said, there are plenty of forums where if you disagree with the majority (ever here of the majority who believed in slavery or treating kids or women as inferior...were you guys around in the sixties where if you were not for Vietnam then you were 'bad") then they send you packing.

Great post!

 

[esldude]

You're going to lose members either way, Amir. I know if WBF decides to ban posts containing data that challenges the beliefs of some members, and that's what this is really about, I'll be gone. I think there are a few others who would not stay under those conditions. You may be one of them yourself. But I've said this before and I'll say it again. There are forums on the net where data that challenges audiophile beliefs is not tolerated. There are forums where the expression of opinions that are not supported by data are not tolerated. This is the only one I know of that welcomes both points of view and all the subtle combinations of the two, and manages to remain reasonably civil. I'd miss it.

Tim

Another +1

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . the best "rule", interacting as you do in person is a good one but not to me the best one, IMO, as this is not a face to face interaction, and because of this, one can not ask questions to clarify like you can face to face and read expressions on peoples faces, etc.

I think that the inability when communicating on-line to read facial expressions and hear vocal intonations and gauge subtle reactions as you can face-to-face is precisely why we should, ideally, be even softer and more polite to each other on-line.

 

[Al M.]

My posts in other threads were deleted by Amir without explanation. I asked Steve about them and he disagreed about their deletion. It must have been something personal.

Peter,

if personal or not, deleting your posts was silly since they are never really offensive (unlike mine sometimes ). If Amir doesn't like their content, that's his problem, not yours.

***

Amir,

you have received a lot of goodwill on this thread. Don't squander it!

 

[Al M.]

Surely robust argument is healthy, as long as the argument is attacked and not the man, how dull it would be if everyone agreed.
Keith.

Precisely. Let's not drown in politeness when robust discussion can be had -- as long as we do not resort to personal insults. Attacking an argument is good.

 

[amirm]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I stayed out of the thread on purpose as to not interfere with that.

I can't say how grateful I am to see the views as presented. Having you all speak in this manner is a powerful way to have the voice of the forum heard as opposed to it coming from me or someone else.

On deletion of the posts, I take your message to heart and will sharply curtail doing so. Instead, I will be reporting them to the management team to take action. Please note that there is a drawback to this in that to the extent a post is triggering emotional response from others, the more it stays out there, the more south the thread will go. So it is extremely important that we stay professional and resist the temptation to do so.

So to summarize per Jazzdoc, "the forum is what it is." I wish everyone stays here and contributes constructively and positively as your value to the membership is clear. The forum will continue its life uninterrupted and governed by its TOS and mission statement.

Thanks again.

 

[ddk]

Amir,

you have received a lot of goodwill on this thread. Don't squander it!

+1 and Don't delete our posts!

david

 

[Al M.]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I stayed out of the thread on purpose as to not interfere with that.

I can't say how grateful I am to see the views as presented. Having you all speak in this manner is a powerful way to have the voice of the forum heard as opposed to it coming from me or someone else.

On deletion of the posts, I take your message to heart and will sharply curtail doing so. Instead, I will be reporting them to the management team to take action. Please note that there is a drawback to this in that to the extent a post is triggering emotional response from others, the more it stays out there, the more south the thread will go. So it is extremely important that we stay professional and resist the temptation to do so.

So to summarize per Jazzdoc, "the forum is what it is." I wish everyone stays here and contributes constructively and positively as your value to the membership is clear. The forum will continue its life uninterrupted and governed by its TOS and mission statement.

Thanks again.

And thank you, Amir, as well!

 

[ddk]

On deletion of the posts, I take your message to heart and will sharply curtail doing so. Instead, I will be reporting them to the management team to take action. Please note that there is a drawback to this in that to the extent a post is triggering emotional response from others, the more it stays out there, the more south the thread will go. So it is extremely important that we stay professional and resist the temptation to do so.

Its the deletion of posts which is the problem Amir, not you personally. I understand the need for moderators in extreme situations but please don't forget you're dealing with adults, even when acting childish. Personally I find deleting posts way more insulting than anything anyone can say to me on the forum.

david

 

[NorthStar]

Deleted. ...By my own oneself. I had few paragraphs already typed, and trying to put the best word in front and after each one.

There was no problem with my post; very peaceful and intelligent and all that jazz, but @ the end we all know best. :b

* Remember, we're all human beings with a heart and mind and soul; we're all fragile.

 

[treitz3]

Hello all. Most of the posts that are deleted have nothing to do with any technical argument, add nothing to the value of the thread and are so far off from the topic that the post simply does not belong. The highest percentage of deleted posts are posts that have nothing but personal comments directed at someone. None of these type posts are in line with the forum goals, all of them are in direct violation of the TOS and the management team does reserve the right to omit them at our discretion.

Just an FYI to the members, the management team very rarely ever completely deletes a post. We do what they call a "soft delete", which is still visible by the management team for review but not for the public eyes anymore. If any post is deemed good to go after being soft deleted, then the team can reinstate said post(s) after review but as you might have noticed, it is also very rare (if ever) that a deleted post is reinstated. All deleted posts come with a note to the management team as to why said post(s) were deleted, whether it be rude, confrontational, personal in nature, spam, against the TOS or otherwise deemed inappropriate for that particular forum.

If one does not want to be insulted by having their posts deleted, simply do not make posts that stand the chance of being deleted in the first place.

Tom

 

[NorthStar]

Tom, I wish that you could be a moderator over @ AVSForum. :b

Oh and by the way, many posts here over the years, according to the TOS, should have been deleted as well. ...Many many of them.
So with that reserved right comes great responsibility.

It's a fine balance in all fairness.

I've seen rude posts remaining and member's posts defending their human rights being violated when deleted. ...Not just here, over there too. And I let you figure out why...

 

[kach22i]

Given the numerous attacks against audio equipment criticism on this site ....................

It would be interesting to find out if there is a generational gap, with those crying out tending to be younger in years.

The Coddling of the American Mind
In the name of emotional well-being, college students are increasingly demanding protection from words and ideas they don’t like. Here’s why that’s disastrous for education—and mental health.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

In June, a professor protecting himself with a pseudonym wrote an essay for Vox describing how gingerly he now has to teach. “I’m a Liberal Professor, and My Liberal Students Terrify Me,” the headline said. A number of popular comedians, including Chris Rock, have stopped performing on college campuses (see Caitlin Flanagan’s article in this month’s issue). Jerry Seinfeld and Bill Maher have publicly condemned the oversensitivity of college students, saying too many of them can’t take a joke.

 

[Al M.]

It would be interesting to find out if there is a generational gap, with those crying out tending to be younger in years.

The Coddling of the American Mind
In the name of emotional well-being, college students are increasingly demanding protection from words and ideas they don’t like. Here’s why that’s disastrous for education—and mental health.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

Yes, I read that Vox essay. I am not sure how common that is though. In the natural sciences probably not; I work in a biotech company where the young people seem perfectly normal.

Anyway, I guess that most posters here are 50 and above. Lots of whining going on for such a mature age.