Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[TonyW]

When Michelangelo finished painting the Sistine Chapel, do you think he stood back and declared, “This is a Masterpiece.” Perhaps, but I think more likely he was glad it was done and walked out hoping to never see it again. Then some monks came along and marveled at it and declared it a Masterpiece.

 

[microstrip]

IMO high end products are engineering products - their performance must be reliable and somewhat predictable in typical high end situations.

I would say that an OTL M60 DIY kit designed by Ralph Karsten and built with proper materials and skills is probably high end, my other tube amplifier experiences based in known circuits were not high end at all, although I was very happy with their sound quality.

 

[Elliot G.]

Here's a rather ironic opinion:

Audiophile Icon Calls Out the 'Mafia' Tactics of Luxury Audio Market

An insider’s take on how the industry exploits audiophiles.

www.headphonesty.com

Dave he is not a victim he is just failed companies (3)

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Dave he is not a victim he is just failed companies (3)

mostly on other's dimes.

 

[Atmasphere]

OK SAT

First IMO building a kit is not the same as someone designing and building their own product.
Building the kit of something that someone else designed and may or may not have sold as a finished product is to me just like putting together a puzzle of the Mona Lisa. You aren't DaVinci you just put the puzzle together. Sorry but that's how I see it.
If you are designing and building your own stuff that may or may not be high end. It may or may not be junk. I t could be anything however if no one ever sees it or hears it then IMO it can not be anything but what it is, something one guy built for himself as there are no other conclusions I can make.
There is a serious distinction for me between a kit assembler and an do it yourself audio designer. Then there is a much further hoops to jump through to actually design, and build and produce and pack and advertise and sell and support a product. IMO a real high end product is all of those and more.

I don't have any problem with this. But I should point out that when building a kit a lot of the variables that exist in a DaVinci painting are nailed down by the parts themselves, the chassis design, the schematics and instruction manual.

Some kit builders do amazingly well! IME the majority tend to be a bit messy with their work but if they get the amp running it will sound right regardless.

What I am saying is: It is not a high end component until the public, or some recognized authorities say it is.

Let's take the example of someone that knows what they are doing, has a dcs front end with Sound Lab ESLs but builds his own amp (again, knowing what he's doing), and having heard other amps on his system, knows how his amp compares. If it compares really well, by your definition its not high end without recognition.

That sounds pretty ridiculous to me. We can clearly see in the above example that this hypothetical person was intending to make something that met a criteria that has a high bar.

And I have heard Dynaco ST70 amps driving Quad ESL speakers. Very good but not high end. Definitely not compared to some of today’s high end amps.

The ST70 started production about 1958 and was made for 20 years. Now its back and there are a good number of variants. Its distortion rivaled that of the Marantz 8; its THD at full power is far less than any SET ever made. These days despite terrible performance SETs are considered high end. On a lot of speakers (like the Quad ESL) an ST70 will sound better than most any SET made. And you say its not high end. Do you know the provenance of the amp, what the front end of the system was and so on?

Here's a phenomena for you to chew on. I've been doing audio shows since about 1989 when CES was at the Riviera hotel in Vegas. People often and to this day will come into the room and because it sounds nice will say the speakers are really good. But the simple fact, which I think you know, is there's no way the speakers can do that unless the amp, preamp and signal source all have their ducks in a row. Yet the speakers get the credit.... do you see what you might have done when you heard that ST70? If I put on a bad recording my system won't sound that good. If I put it in a bad room it will fall flat on its face without treatment. So I'm wondering if you made a hasty generalization.

After some thought, and since I've worked on a lot of 'high end amps' I can tell you from direct experience that the Dynaco ST70, if comparison to 'today's high end amps' is the metric, is clearly high end as its built as well as many of them are today, with similar specs.

 

[PeterA]

When debating general concepts we must look at them also from a statistical perspective - we can always find exceptions to rule out other any possible argumentation.

IMO Elliot (and a few others) are clear - they address high end products, some thing that is available to consumers, that want to buy, operate, enjoy and get service on them, and possibly exchange or sell at some point.

By that definition, each component in my system is a high-end product. They are available because I was able to buy them from a dealer. I can operate them and enjoy them and get them serviced. I can also exchange or sell them at some point. However, my turntable and speakers are extremely rare. New versions of my speakers are being produced and are available for sale. I think Elliot was arguing that one can’t hear some similar components anywhere because they are so rare. That’s why I asked him for clarification.

It’s pretty hard to find a pair of Magico mini 2 speakers or Pass Aleph 2 mono amplifiers. Same with some great vintage cartridges. These and many more are no longer in production and difficult to hear, but I don’t think anyone would argue that they are not high-end.

 

[microstrip]

By that definition, each component in my system is a high-end product. They are available because I was able to buy them from a dealer. I can operate them and enjoy them and get them serviced. I can also exchange or sell them at some point. However, my turntable and speakers are extremely rare. New versions of my speakers are being produced and are available for sale. I think Elliot was arguing that one can’t hear some similar components anywhere because they are so rare. That’s why I asked him for clarification.

Well, if we exclude signal and power cables, probably yes.

But according to the usual beliefs of some of the vintage fraternity in WBF, new versions of old speakers are not comparable in performance. And sorry, when I address dealers I refer to dealers in a spread out network, not an isolated dealer.

Probably we can consider two classes - the current high-end products and the past high-end products.

 

[Robh3606]

But according to the usual beliefs of some of the vintage fraternity in WBF, new versions of old speakers are not comparable in performance. And sorry, when I address dealers I refer to dealers in a spread out network, not an isolated dealer.

Probably we can consider two classes - the current high-end products and the past high-end products.

Hello

I would say that's a good call to separate vintage high end vs current.

Rob

 

[Rensselaer]

Ok, I feel like I’m being Rensselaer here but I gotta say something.

- Each to his own- A dismissive comment when someone is either unwilling or unable to make a meaningful retort.

- I like riding bikes- Ok. Not seeing the connection to the next sentence.

- My other interests in life do not diminish the fact that some kits (DYI) are clearly high end audio- Really? Your interests determines the definition of high end audio? Is it really a fact that some DYI kits are high end audio? If it is a fact, then why have some 280 posts on this forum debated whether or not DYI is a part of high end audio?

Facts are usually backed by evidence. The definition of High End audio has not been clearly established in this forum. I see it as somewhat abstract myself. People here have a number of differing, valid viewpoints.

For example, I had a buddy decades ago, a great engineer who decided to design and build his own speakers. He bought several books on the subject. He built a math model on his computer to optimize the driver/crossover/cabinet design. Then he selected his parts. When he was done he had finished speakers that looked great- fantastic cabinetry work. Top notch. The sound was ok. Mid-fi sound. It was a great first time effort. So would I call them high end speakers because they looked great? No.

Otherwise the DYI stuff I have seen, and what I have done in the past myself, is modifying existing gear.

Someone with a passion for audio and the talent also needs a machine shop, an electronics lab, some serious funding to design, tool up and build their own amp, speaker, DAC, etc. And typically I would expect that the plan would be to use that effort to start a business making that product. Otherwise, unless it is a real passion and money is no object, then finding an existing high end comparable product would be a relative bargain.

PS. Of all the gear that I consider high end, I would consider those responsible for the product to be masters in their field. Most are mature designers/builders that have been in the business a good while.
I can’t imagine a DIY’er stepping up and making a comparable product first time out. Not to say there isn’t a mature DYI’er out there doing it; but keeps it to himself.

Rensselaer has contributed only a small fraction of the number of comments you have on this thread, and other than some useful information on matching cartridges to tonearms in one comment, everything else seems to be you wanting tell your life story. You seem to think you were the OP and have to pontificate on every single comment made by anyone else on this thread. Please give it a rest.

 

[PeterA]

Well, if we exclude signal and power cables, probably yes.

But according to the usual beliefs of some of the vintage fraternity in WBF, new versions of old speakers are not comparable in performance. And sorry, when I address dealers I refer to dealers in a spread out network, not an isolated dealer.

Probably we can consider two classes - the current high-end products and the past high-end products.

Oh, my wires and cords are definitely not considered mainstream high-end. The vintage fraternity on WBF does not operate on belief. New versions of old speakers are certainly comparable. They just likely sound different.

You avoid the subject of rare and coveted, and whether a difficult to hear component is considered high end. The Wilson WAMM and TechDAS Zero are quite difficult to hear, but I think people consider them to be high-end. Very few people have heard the ultra rare (three known samples) American Sound AS1000 turntable, and yet those who visited DDK claimed it was their favorite turntable of his collection of well established top reference tables. They reported such here on WBF in a number of different visit reports. I think they consider it high-end, and with a vintage inexpensive arm, no less.

A non isolated networked dealer of mainstream products and member of the established high end industry might claim that because such a turntable can not be heard, it is not high-end. It is not "known". MF has not heard it. It has not been reviewed by TAS. Such a view would seem to serve the mainstream industry players. But we are lucky that here on WBF we see many such reports. I am guessing that owners of such products do not care what others think about such classifications.

To get back to the original topic of this thread, I suspect the owners of such products do indeed think they are worth the money.

 

[TonyW]

Rensselaer has contributed only a small fraction of the number of comments you have on this thread, and other than some useful information on matching cartridges to tonearms in one comment, everything else seems to be you wanting tell your life story. You seem to think you were the OP and have to pontificate on every single comment made by anyone else on this thread. Please give it a rest.

I love you too man.

XXOO

 

[Atmasphere]

You avoid the subject of rare and coveted, and whether a difficult to hear component is considered high end. The Wilson WAMM and TechDAS Zero are quite difficult to hear, but I think people consider them to be high-end

Lovely point. Here's a possible example : the Atma-Sphere MA-3. This amp is almost completely unknown.

 

[Rensselaer]

I love you too man.

XXOO

I rest my case.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The vintage fraternity on WBF does not operate on belief. New versions of old speakers are certainly comparable. They just likely sound different.

Different and inferior - the message was clear.

You avoid the subject of rare and coveted, and whether a difficult to hear component is considered high end.

Yes, I had addressed it before. No need to repeat it all.

The Wilson WAMM and TechDAS Zero are quite difficult to hear, but I think people consider them to be high-end.

We should think about numbers. In fact many, many people listened to the WAMM's, although they are now all sold and out of production. They were shown and demoed in many countries and reviewed many times. Do you have doubts they are high-end?

The TechDAS Zero surely is much harder to be listened but top reviewers listened to it and it benefits from the fact that many people own TechDas turntables. Would anyone consider that the Zero is not better than the One?

Very few people have heard the ultra rare (three known samples) American Sound AS1000 turntable, and yet those who visited DDK claimed it was their favorite turntable of his collection of well established top reference tables. They reported such here on WBF in a number of different visit reports. I think they consider it high-end, and with a vintage inexpensive arm, no less.

Well, I respect the opinion of WBF members - no problem saying the AS1000 is high-end. But probably it is practically ignored outside a very small community and IMO the lack of transparency around its technical design does not help its deserved recognition.

A non isolated networked dealer of mainstream products and member of the established high end industry might claim that because such a turntable can not be heard, it is not high-end. It is not "known". MF has not heard it. It has not been reviewed by TAS. Such a view would seem to serve the mainstream industry players. But we are lucky that here on WBF we see many such reports. I am guessing that owners of such products do not care what others think about such classifications.

Probably. But I would note that such owners are permanently referrinh to such other mainstream products and to known reviewers or mainstream products ...

To get back to the original topic of this thread, I suspect the owners of such products do indeed think they are worth the money.

Surely. I think that when we feel something is not worth the money for us we we part with it.

 

[microstrip]

Lovely point. Here's a possible example : the Atma-Sphere MA-3. This amp is almost completely unknown.

Well, I could listen to the MA-50, MA-60, MA100 and MA-2 and they are high-end, no doubt.

Should I consider that the built-in tube tester seriously affects the MA-3 sound quality?

 

[Atmasphere]

Well, I could listen to the MA-50, MA-60, MA100 and MA-2 and they are high-end, no doubt.

Should I consider that the built-in tube tester seriously affects the MA-3 sound quality?

It doesn't and you can use it on the fly.
It also has AC line regulation so if the line browns out, the amp can still make full power. No adjustments needed since bias and DC Offset are servo controlled. You can also run it at lower power levels with banks of the tubes shut down entirely.

 

[PeterA]

It doesn't and you can use it on the fly.
It also has AC line regulation so if the line browns out, the amp can still make full power. No adjustments needed since bias and DC Offset are servo controlled. You can also run it at lower power levels with banks of the tubes shut down entirely.

What speakers were used with this amplifier and how many samples were made? It sounds like quite an amplifier.

 

[Holmz]

Ok, I feel like I’m being Rensselaer here but I gotta say something.

- Each to his own- A dismissive comment when someone is either unwilling or unable to make a meaningful retort.

- I like riding bikes- Ok. Not seeing the connection to the next sentence.
…

He beat me to it.
And I have not even had a covvee yet.

Elliot plays golf.
Ralph rides bikes.
(I ride bikes too))

One can lash out a lot of money on a bicyle(s) or on golf clubs.
That doesn’t snot make them necessarily a good cyclist nor a good golfer.

Much in the same way that fancy wrist watch does not make one understand time like Hawking or Einstein.

 

[Lagonda]

Ok, I feel like I’m being Rensselaer here but I gotta say something.

- Each to his own- A dismissive comment when someone is either unwilling or unable to make a meaningful retort.

- I like riding bikes- Ok. Not seeing the connection to the next sentence.

- My other interests in life do not diminish the fact that some kits (DYI) are clearly high end audio- Really? Your interests determines the definition of high end audio? Is it really a fact that some DYI kits are high end audio? If it is a fact, then why have some 280 posts on this forum debated whether or not DYI is a part of high end audio?

Facts are usually backed by evidence. The definition of High End audio has not been clearly established in this forum. I see it as somewhat abstract myself. People here have a number of differing, valid viewpoints.

For example, I had a buddy decades ago, a great engineer who decided to design and build his own speakers. He bought several books on the subject. He built a math model on his computer to optimize the driver/crossover/cabinet design. Then he selected his parts. When he was done he had finished speakers that looked great- fantastic cabinetry work. Top notch. The sound was ok. Mid-fi sound. It was a great first time effort. So would I call them high end speakers because they looked great? No.

Otherwise the DYI stuff I have seen, and what I have done in the past myself, is modifying existing gear.

Someone with a passion for audio and the talent also needs a machine shop, an electronics lab, some serious funding to design, tool up and build their own amp, speaker, DAC, etc. And typically I would expect that the plan would be to use that effort to start a business making that product. Otherwise, unless it is a real passion and money is no object, then finding an existing high end comparable product would be a relative bargain.

PS. Of all the gear that I consider high end, I would consider those responsible for the product to be masters in their field. Most are mature designers/builders that have been in the business a good while.
I can’t imagine a DIY’er stepping up and making a comparable product first time out. Not to say there isn’t a mature DYI’er out there doing it; but keeps it to himself.

Who says these DIY efforts are "first time around", it seems to me some of them actually spend limitlessly amounts of time and money getting it right. Leif from Norway has a system built around DIY equipment that by all accounts sound amazing. He started out with Avantgarde Trio and built something much better sounding, with drivers more costly than most finished speaker systems, all Duelund capacitors and specially wound tranformers in the gear. He has speaker manufacturers visit him to test out their latest efforts, because his system is so good. Ked did a home visit and was blown away. I have no doubt his system is state of the art sound wise, and definitely "high-end".

Zero Distortion: Leif's System with TAD 4003 based dual FLH

http://zero-distortion.org/tad-4003-dual-woofer-flh-leifs-system-norway/ The article covers a visit to one of the top 3 systems I have heard, based on a TAD 4003 dual woofer FLH, entirely DIYed. The article discusses the attributes of beryllium, of TAD 4003, Leif’s approach and philosophy and...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Kingrex]

Lovely point. Here's a possible example : the Atma-Sphere MA-3. This amp is almost completely unknown.

It may be the most rare and unheard are actually the best.