Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
As far as I remember, your changes were mainly switching to an ATR 102 with refurbished/optimized tubed electronics and different heads. I would say it was mostly a preference driven change. Should we consider that if your great vinyl was cut in this machine it would be fundamentally better?
I don’t know. I never really thought about it because I don’t listen to tape. It’s a good question for those who are into tape. I do read that Doshi tape amplifiers are an improvement and that there are a few new tape machines being produced, but there is not the attention that there is on vinyl devices.
I also wrote that Mike reminds us that vinyl playback keeps improving. I suppose it does, but my only real experience is hearing an ultra rare turntable prototype that sounds better than my ultra rare turntable. Both demonstrations were using vintage tonearms, and cartridges and wires. I haven’t heard some of the new turntables and tone arms, so I don’t really know if vinyl is improving. All I know is that the best turntable that I’ve heard was beaten by another turntable that very few others have heard. Mike owns a number of currently available alternatives that are known and have been reviewed.
no, not at all. i mean sure i liked it more. but it was seriously objectively better. and my Studer's were very fine.
best to read the details on my other linked thread than try to make my case here. but both the transport performance and the heads are superior to my Studer A-820's, and the MR-70 preamps are just crazy good compared to the Stock Studer electronics (with transformer-less output cards) or the King Cello tape repro i had.
the ATR-102 came from the 1975-1985 era, and the MR-70 was from 1965-1970 era. so they are not from the same time frames. but the MR-70 was the best preamp, and the ATR-102 the best transport.
my decks improve on the new factory specs of the ATR-102, as does my MR-70 preamps. without getting into information i'm not at liberty to disclose, these machines (not my personal one's which are playback only) will be involved in the some projects from rights holders after proper vetting occurred.
so yes; probably the tape performance of these decks does improve on the performance most of our great vinyl was done with. i think very few recordings were made with original stock Ampex MR-70's, but those did set the standard very high back in the day. and the original MR-70 used a lesser transport, the Ampex 351-2, while the original ATR-102 used stock Ampex 70's electronics. so neither was in the realm of this combo even stock.
as far these products from ATR Service Inc; he continues to try and improve and offer full support for this very robust transport/preamp platform. so it's a great product one can buy knowing it's going to be solid.
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Tape is already good no need to change anything
Digital is more convenient but if a magazine calls itself The Absolute Sound i expect to see at least 1 studer / telefunken
The problem is there is no money in such static products .
Products always need to evolve become " better " as for the manufacturer to stay in business/ keep the factory running mk1 mk2 mk3 .....
The magazines happily do the marketing
Digital is more convenient but if a magazine calls itself The Absolute Sound i expect to see at least 1 studer / telefunken
The problem is there is no money in such static products .
Products always need to evolve become " better " as for the manufacturer to stay in business/ keep the factory running mk1 mk2 mk3 .....
The magazines happily do the marketing
I'm afraid I don't really understand these responses.
1) If the prospective customer purchases the $300,000 DAC after the comparison at the factory with the incumbent $25,000 DAC, then the manufacturer of that purchased DAC is not going to object to him/her discussing the purchase.
2) In my original fact pattern I wrote clearly that the prospective customer will bring his/her incumbent DAC to the factory for the comparison.
Ron,
apologize as i had not read your post carefully enough and assumed you were referring to bringing another uber dac, not a $25k dac.
agree that bringing your own dac in for a compare should always be ok, and reasonable. even so obviously ok as i had not considered it a question.
"Huge?" "Political?" In audio? I don't think so.
a) I would happily sign an NDA. And, I would honor it. Despite what Mike says.
b) I would supply the comparable reference DAC. Reading between the line here it seems like the talk about a suitable comparable DAC really just means a DAC that costs as much. The unspoken but very much known competitor in these circles being the Horizon 360 at ~$60,000. And, let's not forget the Wadax Studio at ~$40,000! I have heard from a few credible sources that it will stand its own against anything - including the Varese and the Wadax reference!
My 5000 Euro tape machine can beat it with good tapes.
I dont agree it beats the Big Wadax
I have no experience with ATR, but tape mechanics were fully and deeply studied by people like Dale Manquen and Fred Thal - within preference the ATR 102 and the Studer A80 / A820 are still standards for top performance - experts have not addressed the new expensive machines.
Considering electronics - IMO tube versus solid state is a preference.
i have nothing to add to those transport expert's opinions.
doubt they get into that same level. but we wait to find out.
i can only say how my Fred Thal refurbed and gone over Studer A-820 compared to the stock but somewhat tuned ATR-102 that my friend brought over to compare directly to it. this was a few years prior to the latest generation decks i have. back then that ATR was a little better than that Studer. which was the start of my serious consideration to change which happened a couple years later. this was not the later hot rodded ones i have now. you can look at the description on that linked page that describes a few of the transport enhancements to judge for yourself what was done. not all the tweaks are disclosed.
you are the engineer to judge the technical. i just listen.
i think that in the case of the Nuvistor Tube'd MR-70 we have a very neutral tube which combined with the low inductance heads betters the solid state alternatives at their strengths. low noise, authority and dynamics. especially low noise.
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It seems to me you were comparing the stock A820 electronics - known to use cheap ICs - with tweaked playback electronics in your system. Some people have preferred the A80 over the A820 just because they preferred the discrete electronics of the older machine.
Yes, I am only addressing the technical part of the tape transports. IMO it is the fundamental aspect of tape machines.
Ok, it seems you are addressing subjective aspects or the playback electronics.
Objectively no nuvistor can have lower noise than solid state optimum electronics, but considering tape intrinsic noise it is not relevant. Nuvistors are know to have low thermal noise when compared to other types of tubes, not with solid state devices.
Again all we see in tape are real subjective improvements, according to you and others in your system. IMO we should separate improvements due to optimization in our particular system from what can be considered a general improvement. Not easy, I recognize.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
Not sure what your point is . With all due respect there is tons of politics or whatever you want to call it in this business .
I’m the one that said that about the Studio player and have no idea about the horizon since I don’t comment about what I have not actually played with .
No
Price is related to decent performance but identifying excellent performance within price constraints is where it is at.
The biggest rewards come from the effort you are prepared to put into the cause.
Price is related to decent performance but identifying excellent performance within price constraints is where it is at.
The biggest rewards come from the effort you are prepared to put into the cause.
Sales volume speaks to it's relevance in 'the current market.' But audio reviews are not about that.
exactly. There is zero incentive for a different manufacturer or distributor to send out a piece for use as the comparison model in a review. Manufacturers typically will not allow the same dealer to sell competing models. Different brand head to head compares are left to the buyer.
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