Is iPad/Laptop as Streamer Good Enough?

[Tuckia]

Streaming with Roon is a dirty business, but seems to be the most popular way of doing digital now. If you can play local files through JRiver without internet, without WiFi, and with super clean power (is that even possible?) then you have a chance. Much of the mitigation techniques employed in server/streamers is aimed at these significant detractors. Then there is self noise, which is every single component processing signal in a computer, contributing noise to confuse the receiver. Then there are the bloated, spaghetti logic operating systems in a standard computer. Unless you are a coder with time on your hands this is a black box that can’t be helped. Turning stuff off, although helpful, is just rudimentary.

Too many issues to shake a stick at. Whether the magic is done in the server or the dac doesn’t matter, as long as it is done somewhere.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Sorry my Innuos Statement smokes an iPad or laptop. No contest, Roon is horrid I use the Innuos Sense application.

 

[msimanyi]

Roon sounds pretty darn good on my Grimm MU1, though I’ve seen a number of general complaints about Roon sound quality.

Perhaps it’s streamer-dependent. Or core-dependent.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Perhaps it’s streamer-dependent. Or core-dependent.

...or listener dependent. I think apple pie is 3.14 times better than blueberry pie, but others may not agree. That's why the bakery has so many flavors.

 

[msimanyi]

Perhaps, though I doubt it's just a qualitative difference. It seems more likely to be a noise issue in the core, though that's just a wild guess on my part.

Taiko and others strive to develop platforms that isolate or eliminate "computer noise" - in addition to all the standard power supply and EMI issues - for a good reason.

I'm curious. Does Roon sound compromised on a Taiko Extreme?

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have read many state that they don't like Roon on the Extreme, or prefer TAS or now XDMS. I do not use Roon, and aside from a very brief demo run, and hearing it in friends' systems, I have not evaluated Roon SQ on my Extreme. It seems overly complex to me; some would call it feature rich.

 

[Alrainbow]

Roon is not the correct compare on sound quality on various machines used
Roon is a feature rich high cpu usage player streamer at a cost. I built ultra fast machines multiple LPS powered.
it’s ok as a core and tablet to control it. This lessons the GUI load , but even if the player meaning end point for the dac is better then Roon alone even if just the core is used.
taiko as an example isolates the cpu usage in part , now to my ears and I’m old taiko has given owners various ways to play music. they all sound great , but choices are always welcome.
combo Roon to various end points make changes some may like and others not hear them. We each have many facets to observation.
jriver alone is good and has steaming features as well as network connectivity to dacs as end points
all windows Based or Linux or Apple os at times
If one says they don’t hear changes it’s ok even if they feel an iPad is good enough.
there was a way to use an iPhone or android to usb into many dacs
one might find a direct connection to the dac very beneficial. but to play dsd or high res mixed results might be heard.

 

[geetee1972]

I was astounded at the difference my dedicated server made. I had, to that point, been using a MPB with an Ideon Audio external reclocker. Right before I took delivery of the server - an LDMS Mini Max, which was around £8k in my spec, I had been running a £20k pre-amp in between my Lampizator GG DAC with volume control and my power amps. The difference that adding a dedicated preamp made was huge; when I took the pre out and then replaced the MPB pro and re-clocker with the LDMS, the improvement made was of the same order of magnitude that the preamp had made previously. Considering that the server was about one third the cost of the pre, I'd say that was an easy decision to make.

I can't say why it makes a difference; I'm not technical enough to comment, but the impact of a dedicated server in my system was significant.

 

[Tuckia]

LD of LDMS is a computer coder. I've talked with him some and believe modifying the OS, which is an industrial version of Windows, is where he mines most of his gold. His servers are minimal on hardware compared to an Extreme, but what isn't. Ultimately I went with the Extreme for a couple reasons. The substantial hardware seems to be the most future proof option available. The Taiko team relentlessly chases the rabbit.

Having started with servers 8 years ago with Aurender and the Conductor app, I grew to appreciate its function. Four years ago I transitioned to Roon with the Antipodes servers. Conveniently they give you different server (core) and player (renderer) apps to experiment with. Here it is easy to hear what Roon does to the sound - warm, rounded, less resolved, and gray. Substituting Squeezelite for Roon Ready as the player was a huge improvement. HQ Player was another preferred option. Along the way I have grown an appreciation for Roon's feature rich function, but the SQ is still compromised. Whenever I go back to the second system here with the Aurender N100h, I feel it's function is compromised because of the Conductor app. So what's the best path forward?

Taiko, as a stop-gap for Roon's compromised SQ, developed TAS in quick order. It is a lightly modified version of LMS server/player, the same trick that Antipodes offers with their servers for best SQ. LMS (Logitec Music Server) is about 15 years old! It is usually better than Roon, but by varying amounts. Roon's SQ varies with every frequent update.

Taiko just released their new network card and switch package which is reported to improve SQ for all options, but especially Roon. Soon they will release a router. Then a proprietary battery power supply to power all of this. How much hardware is enough? All great costs to mitigate internet stream and power line noise.

The more I learn about what is being done with leading edge servers, the more I realize how inferior an off the shelf computer is for making enjoyable music. Sins of addition. A lower priced, entry level server, with trickle down tech from the top models, seems to be the better place to start. Many options are available now. I'd like to try an LDMS Mini myself.

 

[Alrainbow]

LD is more then just a coder as I’m sure taiko is as well. there are many paths to great digital learning them helps extract the most from many lower price point dacs. some people just go after a software approach some just hardware to do the heavy lifting
both need to work together in tune.
one observation is less power of the total cpu usage , one can make a ultra high power mainboard CPU combo. But to me minimum many times is cleaner sounding even if it’s Roon.
HQ player tries to solve this in off load and to a degree it works.
regardless to make a blanket statement of shelf life is rude and disrespectful and factually incorrect period.
it’s ready to Throw rocks at others hard work I get this In a way at costs. But total price = all past and present developments and margin for support and the entire chain.
Dacs alone have a minefield of drivers to contend with.
Let’s be mindful of others on here all trying to make a living

 

[Tuckia]

LD is more then just a coder as I’m sure taiko is as well. there are many paths to great digital learning them helps extract the most from many lower price point dacs. some people just go after a software approach some just hardware to do the heavy lifting
both need to work together in tune.
one observation is less power of the total cpu usage , one can make a ultra high power mainboard CPU combo. But to me minimum many times is cleaner sounding even if it’s Roon.
HQ player tries to solve this in off load and to a degree it works.
regardless to make a blanket statement of shelf life is rude and disrespectful and factually incorrect period.
it’s ready to Throw rocks at others hard work I get this In a way at costs. But total price = all past and present developments and margin for support and the entire chain.
Dacs alone have a minefield of drivers to contend with.
Let’s be mindful of others on here all trying to make a living

Al,
I am aware you know LD personally, I do not. My perception is based on his communication which he offered during a lengthy transaction. I found it insightful and meaningful.

That said, I did not say LD is only a coder. I'm merely pointing out what I believe to be his strength. I wouldn't doubt he goes farther with this than anyone out there because he has the ability to do it and has been doing it for a long time. This may be the rarest ability. Anyone can throw expensive parts in a box.

Future proof has little to do with shelf life. It's akin to buying a truck with a bigger engine because you don't know how big of a load you may encounter in the future. Having 40 cores of highend dual processor power for audio files of any size is clearly shooting for overkill - hence the name. As you elude to, most developers out there are using low powered player processors because of the lower noise signature. I won't/can't speculate further on the choices that designers make. Linear thought doesn't always apply.

The only thing I'm throwing rocks at is using off the shelf computers for audio - at least high end audio. Server manufacturers are all still on a high effort learning curve. I applaud all of their considerable work.

 

[Alrainbow]

Al,
I am aware you know LD personally, I do not. My perception is based on his communication which he offered during a lengthy transaction. I found it insightful and meaningful.

That said, I did not say LD is only a coder. I'm merely pointing out what I believe to be his strength. I wouldn't doubt he goes farther with this than anyone out there because he has the ability to do it and has been doing it for a long time. This may be the rarest ability. Anyone can throw expensive parts in a box.

Future proof has little to do with shelf life. It's akin to buying a truck with a bigger engine because you don't know how big of a load you may encounter in the future. Having 40 cores of highend dual processor power for audio files of any size is clearly shooting for overkill - hence the name. As you elude to, most developers out there are using low powered player processors because of the lower noise signature. I won't/can't speculate further on the choices that designers make. Linear thought doesn't always apply.

The only thing I'm throwing rocks at is using off the shelf computers for audio - at least high end audio. Server manufacturers are all still on a high effort learning curve. I applaud all of their considerable work.

Relax I meant no direct comment to you I mean this. I may know him or many but my post do get off topic and confusing. your post I feel is fine
Somehow it got directed to you in some ways and not meant to. You don’t need to take your time to reply as such.
reg off the shelf or the like very little is NOT off the shelf even while it’s claimed to be. To make a small change physically to me is a modification not = to non off the off the shelf. while LD is a close friend I still pay homage to many especially to the likes of taiko or wadex industry leaders.
again relax I meant no insult you but as I said there are many ways to audio utopia even if just off the shelf parts made to be used just for audio ??
Good night

 

[Tuckia]

Relax I meant no direct comment to you I mean this. I may know him or many but my post do get off topic and confusing. your post I feel is fine
Somehow it got directed to you in some ways and not meant to. You don’t need to take your time to reply as such.
reg off the shelf or the like very little is NOT off the shelf even while it’s claimed to be. To make a small change physically to me is a modification not = to non off the off the shelf. while LD is a close friend I still pay homage to many especially to the likes of taiko or wadex industry leaders.
again relax I meant no insult you but as I said there are many ways to audio utopia even if just off the shelf parts made to be used just for audio ??
Good night

All good. Take care.

 

[Alrainbow]

Do you attend axpona ? it would really be. Nice to meet members from here and other forums
in person to me is far more important

 

[Gregadd]

Just to weigh in.
I find streaming over my android via Bluetooth to be inferior to streaming over my android via cable.
I find both of the above to be inferior to streaming via my desktop.
I used a dedicated streamer and found it to be redundant to wi-fi.
I am closely watching the thread What does a streamer do? I don't think anyone has answered the OP yet.

 

[geetee1972]

Just to weigh in.
I find streaming over my android via Bluetooth to be inferior to streaming over my android via cable.
I find both of the above to be inferior to streaming via my desktop.
I used a dedicated streamer and found it to be redundant to wi-fi.
I am closely watching the thread What does a streamer do? I don't think anyone has answered the OP yet.

Someone called Keith posted this on another thread, which I think nails the definition of 'what does a streamer actually do?' (which coincidentally is also what that thread is called):

- Server. The purpose of a server is to store files and send it on demand. A server can be on your computer itself where it resides on your HDD/SSD. Or it can be on a NAS on your network. Or it can be on the internet, like Tidal or Qobuz.
- Streamer. The purpose of a streamer is to provide a control point to request files from the server. The streamer might be on your computer (e.g. JRiver, Roon, Kodi, Foobar, Amarra, etc.), or on your tablet, or your phone. It might be built in to a specialized streamer device, e.g. Bluepoint, Cambridge Audio CXN, etc.
- Renderer. The renderer receives files from the streamer, or directly from the server. It decodes files into a format the DAC can understand. Some renderers have additional functions, such as DSP, convolution, VST, and so on.

In reality, what people call a 'server' or 'streamer' is actually all three of the above. This is especially the case when you buy one box that contains the hardware and software you need for all three parts of the 'digital transport'.

 

[Gregadd]

Thank you.

 

[sbo6]

I keep believing, and posting, that I think the sound quality of using an iPad as a streamer is inferior to using a dedicated high-end audio streamer to feed one's DAC. Compared to a CD of the same title I hear iPad as streamer as relatively thin, lifeless and anemic. (I appreciate that there are other factors here that make this not an apples-to-apples comparison.) I am currently waiting for an Innuos PULSEmini to be installed in my system.

So I am a little bit baffled to learn that Jeff Fritz in his review of the Gryphon Apex Stereo amplifier, May 1, 2022, seems not to use a dedicated streamer:

The Gryphon Apex Stereo was placed in my reference system, replacing the Boulder Amplifiers 2060 stereo power amplifier that anchors this setup. The rest of the components consisted of Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirit loudspeakers, Shunyata Research Alpha SP speaker cables, Delta IC interconnects, Alpha USB cable, and Venom NR-V10 power cords. My source was an MSB Technology Discrete DAC fed from an Apple MacBook Air (2018). Powering everything except the Apex was a Shunyata Research Hydra Alpha A12 power conditioner. The Apple, MSB, and Alpha A12 were placed on an SGR Audio Model III Symphony equipment rack.

So, at least as of the date of that review, Jeff was using an Apple laptop as a streamer. Does anyone happen to know Jeff's thinking on streamers?

I think he is in the camp of - the DAC should re-clock and clean everything up, which, as a reviewer and especially with that system speaks volumes about his qualifications / judgement.

 

[Rexp]

I think he is in the camp of - the DAC should re-clock and clean everything up, which, as a reviewer and especially with that system speaks volumes about his qualifications.

They should, shouldn't they? I mean imagine a cartridge manufacturer sending out product that only sounded good with some third party gizmo attached to it.

 

[Backpacker]

Remember, science is supposed to be the open minded investigation of observed phenomena as opposed to taking a fixed position based on a logical sounding theory.

Yes, in theory, since bits are bits, a DAC should be able to render perfect sound (forever, yet) if the bits are correct. But if you can hear what a good streamer does, that can prompt an inquiry into why, instead of getting stuck on how a DAC "should" be.

In practice, to my ears and many others, you get better sound by reducing digital noise with all possible strategies, including streamers/renderers that reduce noise presented to the DACs digital inputs. Remember, you can have conducted noise over the digital inputs, AC power noise, radiated noise from other equipment, noise generated by the equipment itself, etc.etc. It seems that given todays SOTA,, you can't completely eliminate noise incoming to a DAC or even noise generated by the DAC itself. Instead, you do whatever you can to reduce noise wherever you can. The streamer was a big discovery and now people are finding that network switches can help (probably by reducing the ethernet noise reaching the streamer among other things).

All of the streamer companies are trying to reduce noise, they just do different things. MSB now has the digital director to keep noise of their DACs. Taiko is well loved on this forum, they use a super fast CPUs (so they can be mostly idle) and many other expensive strategies (the case for example). Antipodes separates the renderer from the streamer so the more CPU-expensive streamer functions don't impact the renderer. And lots of these companies are making their own apps, with the benefit of generating less load on the CPU. Then you have CAD which sells noise reducing passive ground controls as well as a streamer and DAC. Finally lots of companies making lower noise Ethernet switches / filters to keep noise from reaching the streamer, let alone the DAC.

It all seemed unlikely to me, given my software engineering background and development experience, but its audible, so I buy the stuff