Is Live, Unamplified Music the Correct Reference for the Sound of our Audio Systems?

[kodomo]

I hope you would not think this as promotion as I am doing this roughly for the question asked in the topic.

We will be trying to have “reference recordings” at our meeting on 13-14 of April at my hotel in Antalya, Turkey. Reference is not as in good recording, but an actual reference as guests will be at the recording and will get unaltered, uncompressed stereo files of the event. We will be recording and at the same time attending this recording/private concert. One is a string quartet and one is jazz trio. If anyone is interested, check the webpage for further information about artists and talkers etc. Ferit Odman Trio, Mike Valentine... http://www.wpref.org

I am doing this to develop our understanding of recording and reproduction and not for profit. I won’t accept any other guests at the hotel for these two days for silence. This is a private gathering for 60 guests who are interested in this subject. If anyone wants to head out to Antalya, Turkey around those days, join us.

The webpage is in Turkish so please translate if you are interested. If you want to join just let me know, I am the host.

After the event I hope to have a better answer for the question of the topic

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, Al M relates this fellow w golden ears who has sat and listened several hours a day, to glorious live classical, in all parts of a concert hall complex, close and far, open hall, and smaller rooms.

And the conclusion? There is no "absolute sound" in this fellow's experience, indeed EVERYWHERE in this hall is the absolute sound all the time, all that's left to debate is a preference he might have from time to time.

It renders this concept of absolute sound irrelevant. Because the concept is like a rainbow, a unicorn, a moving target.

For me, what I've taken from live classical is that I like to be up close, even a symphony full tilt. 3rd to 7th row is good for me. I really want to delineate instruments, feel things in my face, get full tonal density and timbral accuracy. A more amorphous spread 15-25th row back isn't my preference.

And this is informing how I'm evolving my sound at home. But this is no more the absolute sound, than our Far East humungous horn owners, listening 20' back, for a wholly more diffuse experience.

Absolute sound? Does your system absolutely compel you to listen to it every moment you can, is my definition.

 

[ack]

So, Al M relates this fellow w golden ears who has sat and listened several hours a day, to glorious live classical, in all parts of a concert hall complex, close and far, open hall, and smaller rooms.

And the conclusion? There is no "absolute sound" in this fellow's experience, indeed EVERYWHERE in this hall is the absolute sound all the time, all that's left to debate is a preference he might have from time to time.

There is good reason for the price variability by seating section in any audio hall, and the visual part is a small fraction of it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ack, I get that. I was really referring to live classical being held up as the reference for absolute sound. But that even by this measure there are any number of totally disparate experiences to be had. Indeed I've heard the Brandenburg Concertos in a much loved London chapel sound totally diffuse and unengaging, and a jobbing classical musician on recorder play the London subway and sound as good as the best audiophile systems.

The trick is to have your own personal takeaway from live classical or jazz, buy the gear that gets you those hints of live, or mod/optimise current gear to better emulate those facets that stir you (and minimise those elements that keep yr system sounding earthbound and synthetic).

I've pretty much stumbled on rim/idler drive analog, fleshed out digital, tonally dense SETs/full range drivers, as my link to what I get most excited about in live unamplified, and have tinkered extensively to deepen the spell.

 

[ack]

Ack, I get that. I was really referring to live classical being held up as the reference for absolute sound.

OK. And to me, live classical is a reference ONLY if one cares to listen to classical. For jazz, it would be a live jazz venue; for rock, something else; for vocal, yet something different. And in the end, again all I really care about is timbre, no matter what instruments are playing.

 

[Ron Resnick]

We have already done a lot of work on this topic. In 2016, with much discussion and analysis, we produced four alternative, but not mutually exclusive, objectives of high-end audio:

1) recreate the sound of an original musical event,

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape,

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile, and

4) create a sound that seems live.

Trying to answer “what is the absolute sound” actually seems to confuse the issue.

 

[bonzo75]

We have already done a lot of work on this topic. In 2016, with much discussion and analysis, we produced four alternative, but not mutually exclusive, objectives of high-end audio:

1) recreate the sound of an original musical event,

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape,

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile, and

4) create a sound that seems live.

Trying to answer “what is the absolute sound” actually seems to confuse the issue.

If you do two, via tape or via a source mastered and recorded by good engineers, you will get very close to 1 and 4. Closest possible, no one can do 1 precisely. And then the audiophile will automatically have 3. If he tries to achieve 3, he may or may not end up with the rest

 

[PeterA]

We have already done a lot of work on this topic. In 2016, with much discussion and analysis, we produced four alternative, but not mutually exclusive, objectives of high-end audio:

1) recreate the sound of an original musical event,

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape,

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile, and

4) create a sound that seems live.

Trying to answer “what is the absolute sound” actually seems to confuse the issue.

Ron, I think "What is the absolute sound" is a different subject. You tried earlier to define for the audiophile four objectives or system goals. I actually don't agree with #2 because most of us without tape players only have the LP, the CD, or the digital file. We have no control over all the things that happen between the master tape and the finished recording we play through our systems. I would rewrite #2 to say "reproduce exactly what is on the recording being played" or something.

I think this is the subject of another thread discussion. Live, unamplified music seems to relate to #1 and #4, but not to the others.

 

[morricab]

I hope you would not think this as promotion as I am doing this roughly for the question asked in the topic.

We will be trying to have “reference recordings” at our meeting on 13-14 of April at my hotel in Antalya, Turkey. Reference is not as in good recording, but an actual reference as guests will be at the recording and will get unaltered, uncompressed stereo files of the event. We will be recording and at the same time attending this recording/private concert. One is a string quartet and one is jazz trio. If anyone is interested, check the webpage for further information about artists and talkers etc. Ferit Odman Trio, Mike Valentine... http://www.wpref.org

I am doing this to develop our understanding of recording and reproduction and not for profit. I won’t accept any other guests at the hotel for these two days for silence. This is a private gathering for 60 guests who are interested in this subject. If anyone wants to head out to Antalya, Turkey around those days, join us.

The webpage is in Turkish so please translate if you are interested. If you want to join just let me know, I am the host.

After the event I hope to have a better answer for the question of the topic

It sounds like great fun and is a great experiment. I have conducted this experiment myself back in the day when I was dating/living with a top pro violinist.

 

[morricab]

Ron, I think "What is the absolute sound" is a different subject. You tried earlier to define for the audiophile four objectives or system goals. I actually don't agree with #2 because most of us without tape players only have the LP, the CD, or the digital file. We have no control over all the things that happen between the master tape and the finished recording we play through our systems. I would rewrite #2 to say "reproduce exactly what is on the recording being played" or something.

I think this is the subject of another thread discussion. Live, unamplified music seems to relate to #1 and #4, but not to the others.

To me Peter both 1 and 4 would apply. Seeming live is that taking in of a lifetime of memories about different live acoustics, timbre, dynamics etc.

 

[Bruce B]

Not even close if you ask me......

 

[morricab]

Not even close if you ask me......

Can you elaborate what you mean? Sorry, it's not clear to me at least...I can speculate a number of ways on what you mean but I would rather you explain.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

To me Peter both 1 and 4 would apply. Seeming live is that taking in of a lifetime of memories about different live acoustics, timbre, dynamics etc.

I completely agree that this should be our reference but we are constrained by what is on the master (tape or otherwise). Therefore, we must start with reproducing that the best we can.

 

[Bruce B]

Can you elaborate what you mean? Sorry, it's not clear to me at least...I can speculate a number of ways on what you mean but I would rather you explain.

Recording something live and then listening to the recording of it from a high-end system... not even close!

 

[bonzo75]

To me Peter both 1 and 4 would apply. Seeming live is that taking in of a lifetime of memories about different live acoustics, timbre, dynamics etc.

The best way to do this is to reproduce what's on a good source (whether tape, LP, or digital). If it is done by good engineers, it will meet 1 and 4 automatically if the system is transparent to recordings. The recording will have the cues of ambience, stage, tone, etc required. However, if the system s not transparent to recordings, the first track you play could be made to meet 1 and 4. The 2nd, 3rd, and all later tracks could be made to meet 1 and 4, but they will sound very similar stage, ambience, tone to each other.

So, to summarize, an approach where 2 leads to 1 and 4, thous achieving 3, is the best approach - except I would replace tape by tape/LP/digital

 

[morricab]

Recording something live and then listening to the recording of it from a high-end system... not even close!

Well, I have managed to get things a lot closer than the majority of commercial efforts. What is more interesting to me is that live played though microphones and a sound reinforcement system definitely still sounds live, which suggests to me that the microphones are not the weakest link in the chain as they still seem capable of conveying realism.

The one experiment I did putting my voice directly down onto vinyl was very eye opening. Never ever heard my voice played back with such realistic SQ even played back from a smallish single driver speaker.

 

[Legolas]

I am not sure. Acoustics and sound system performance 'at your seat' can be patchy indeed. I went to some Flamenco last weekend, at a decent theatre, and we were a bit close to the left side channel speaker column. It was thus a bit too loud / shrieking, and certainly not without distortion. This is live music performance I am referring to, not studio conditions.

So there has been plenty of live performances I have heard with some elements of distortion. Female voice seems very hard to amplify really well for example.

One thing that IS apparent on live music is often the huge dynamics, there is a lot of energy and power reserves in the drums and bass for example. That is difficult to portray in home sized speakers in general. But linearity, lack of distortion, smoothness of tone, that can IMO be better in a good domestic system. So within it's 'envelope' I do think a good domestic system has strong points even compared to a lot of (amplified) live music.

 

[Lee]

For me, I think live acoustic music is the best reference. I do hirez recordings of classical musicians so the recordings have served me well in judging what certain gear is doing right or wrong. I struggle to think what other benchmark to use as I think measurements only get you half way there (at best).

 

[Lee]

Yup, I see it as a prerequisite and the foundation of a good system along with dispersion pattern. Accurate tone, resolution and absence of fatigue are what make it something special though, for my tastes.

Lots of systems have good technical performance but aren't very engaging or fun to listen to, it's unfortunate these aspects of system performance are not well defined or understood.

This is a good point. A system must be engaging to listen to.

 

[PeterA]

Not even close if you ask me......

Thanks for posting this, Bruce. I must have missed something because a few of the respondents thought the sound was "clearer" in the downstairs room heard through the system. I agree with the guy who said it would have been interesting to set up the system in the upstairs space and hear the recording there, with people sitting in the same locations as they heard the live performance. The singer actually thought the recording sounded quite good.

It was fun to see MikeL interviewed and mention a tape source. I'd like to take part in such a demonstration.

I also think people tend to disagree about how much live music can sound like reproduced music because we all have different references of what reproduced music can sound like. And phrases like "Not even close" are very subjective. Compared to many other forms of transmitted sound or reproduced music over iphone, computer, car radio, Bose radio, telephone, and most home stereos, the best high end audio systems I've heard, actually can sound fairly close to some types of music, IMO. Surely, not identical, and not close enough to fool consistently , but I have been quite surprised at how convincing they can be with the best recordings under excellent conditions. I am optimistic about how good reproduced sound has become. And it seems that some of the people in that video were also quite impressed with the recording of the lady's performance.