Is Pass Labs/Martin Logan a good match?
- Thread starter Heidrun
- Start date
A few are running that combination at martinloganowners.com, presumably to good results. I believe some of these folks are here as well.
Hello and good afternoon to you, Heidrun. Welcome to the forum!
I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty to change your title so that perhaps you can get more answers just based of the thread header. It was somewhat vague before and felt that this way, more folks might chime in on your inquiry. Have a good day.
Tom
I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty to change your title so that perhaps you can get more answers just based of the thread header. It was somewhat vague before and felt that this way, more folks might chime in on your inquiry. Have a good day.
Tom
Sound Lab speakers, like Martin Logan, are electrostatics, albeit single driver, and thus probably an even more challenging load for an amp. After many different models over the years, driven by many different amps, I now use Pass Lab X-260.8 amps and find them to be superb, perhaps the best yet. I have no doubt they would do a great job with ML speakers, although I would recommend the Class AB models over the XA series which are pure Class A.
G'day mate, from down unda;
Depends on which Martin Logan you're referring to? or planning to demo/evaluate or probably buy?...
One of the best ML systems I have heard to date is the CLX partnered with Pass Labs XA30.8. I have made a comprehensive post on this, referring to the CLX Art, you will see it under this section and the various posts that have followed. I have also listened extensively to other ML systems, specifically the new Ren15A and the previous Summit and Montis driven with either Audio Research tube amps or Conrad Johnson- all of these sounded superb and very musical.
Also, at the dealers place where I purchased my pair of ML Ethos speakers, prior to making that decision, I also got the chance to try out various amplifiers over a few days, evaluating and comparing notes on sonic performance. These amps were: Devialet, Accuphase, Luxman, Mark Levinson, Jeff Rowland, Ayon, CJ and the Pass Labs N150 (integrated).
All of these amps had a totally different character and tone, the ones that I personally preferred were tube amps with the Ethos.
At the end of the day, it is definitely upto you. What are you after? What type of music do you listen to and how loud? At what level do you want to recreate recorded music? Are you a specialist audiophile / music fanatic that only goes for "audiophile" recordings or other types of high quality recordings, such as MoFi Labels on LP etc...
Why I ask these questions is because ML electrostats are highly intriguing panel & hybrid speakers. You can actually "tailor make" the sound you're after. Many speakers don't allow you to do this and would sound best only with a handful of electronics upstream or top end brands at top end prices...
With ML's the choice is yours!
1. If you're after a nice relaxing and very lively and highly musical sound- ARC and CJ have been my preference, and personally I'm using CJ with the Ethos, just marvelous!
2. If you're after a superb rendition of dynamics and full realism of a powerful presentation with all the force and great impact- Pass Labs is the way to go.
3. If you want the absolute best of both worlds, which is fantastic solid state drive with full control & effortless loudness, plus a smooth drive on the front end with a tube preamp, would be another superb combination. Another amp that is solid state which also has a tight grip on the bass and can handle the impedence curve of ML's is Plinius from New Zealand. Partner this beauty with a decent tube pre, and you will be amazed at the level of detail, transparency and speed that the ML's can deliver. With the tube pre added into the chain, this not only delivers a special kind of musicality but also great depth into the soundstage.
4. Overall- for me, since I mostly listen during late night sessions, and don't want to rock the house, it is rather the way I listen to music and not the way I play back music at whatever levels... Conrad Johnson is just marvelous on ML's and basically any sort of electrostats for that matter. CJ uses very wide bandwidth transformers and with the choice of certain tubes, the musicality factor is very high, involving and totally engaging. For me it is highly addictive and once you settle into that sort of presentation, you can listen for endless hours with zero fatigue... unlike other combinations that offer a full blast only enjoyable for a short period.
Apart from my good mate, Mr. K who also has the CLX Art driven with the Pass Labs XA30.8 (rated at just 32w pure class A) we also have Roberto based in Costa Rica who happens to have the CLX's as well, driven with all tube amplification from CJ, and is absolutely loving it! I can just imagine...
Check out his posts under Roberto and you will get what I'm talking about- the musicality!
Enough said, and as I said it all depends on what sort of sound you're after. Don't forget one thing, although ML's were fairly notorious to drive in the past, and due to their varied impedence loads, many top quality amps found them rather difficult to drive to their full potential. Hence, the reason only a handful of well known amps could handle electrostats.
However, with the advancement of DSP, re-engineered panel design and other electronic enhancements to control ML speakers, their newer panels & hybrids are far more efficient and fairly easier to drive but this does not mean "any amp" will drive them. Of course nearly any amp will drive them, no doubt but to what extent and how well is critical.
Based on your budgets, musical tastes and listening level preferences, you should get an idea of what you want out of your intended ML speakers... and try to match all these parameters with your room. Afterall, you may have the best electronics that money could buy but if you don't have the right room or mis-judged the room's dimensions/characteristics then I'm afraid such basic elements need to be addressed first, rather than focus on electronics... get my point?
All the best mate and have a good one! Let us know how it all goes, always nice to hear from someone with new experiences.
Cheers, RJ
Depends on which Martin Logan you're referring to? or planning to demo/evaluate or probably buy?...
One of the best ML systems I have heard to date is the CLX partnered with Pass Labs XA30.8. I have made a comprehensive post on this, referring to the CLX Art, you will see it under this section and the various posts that have followed. I have also listened extensively to other ML systems, specifically the new Ren15A and the previous Summit and Montis driven with either Audio Research tube amps or Conrad Johnson- all of these sounded superb and very musical.
Also, at the dealers place where I purchased my pair of ML Ethos speakers, prior to making that decision, I also got the chance to try out various amplifiers over a few days, evaluating and comparing notes on sonic performance. These amps were: Devialet, Accuphase, Luxman, Mark Levinson, Jeff Rowland, Ayon, CJ and the Pass Labs N150 (integrated).
All of these amps had a totally different character and tone, the ones that I personally preferred were tube amps with the Ethos.
At the end of the day, it is definitely upto you. What are you after? What type of music do you listen to and how loud? At what level do you want to recreate recorded music? Are you a specialist audiophile / music fanatic that only goes for "audiophile" recordings or other types of high quality recordings, such as MoFi Labels on LP etc...
Why I ask these questions is because ML electrostats are highly intriguing panel & hybrid speakers. You can actually "tailor make" the sound you're after. Many speakers don't allow you to do this and would sound best only with a handful of electronics upstream or top end brands at top end prices...
With ML's the choice is yours!
1. If you're after a nice relaxing and very lively and highly musical sound- ARC and CJ have been my preference, and personally I'm using CJ with the Ethos, just marvelous!
2. If you're after a superb rendition of dynamics and full realism of a powerful presentation with all the force and great impact- Pass Labs is the way to go.
3. If you want the absolute best of both worlds, which is fantastic solid state drive with full control & effortless loudness, plus a smooth drive on the front end with a tube preamp, would be another superb combination. Another amp that is solid state which also has a tight grip on the bass and can handle the impedence curve of ML's is Plinius from New Zealand. Partner this beauty with a decent tube pre, and you will be amazed at the level of detail, transparency and speed that the ML's can deliver. With the tube pre added into the chain, this not only delivers a special kind of musicality but also great depth into the soundstage.
4. Overall- for me, since I mostly listen during late night sessions, and don't want to rock the house, it is rather the way I listen to music and not the way I play back music at whatever levels... Conrad Johnson is just marvelous on ML's and basically any sort of electrostats for that matter. CJ uses very wide bandwidth transformers and with the choice of certain tubes, the musicality factor is very high, involving and totally engaging. For me it is highly addictive and once you settle into that sort of presentation, you can listen for endless hours with zero fatigue... unlike other combinations that offer a full blast only enjoyable for a short period.
Apart from my good mate, Mr. K who also has the CLX Art driven with the Pass Labs XA30.8 (rated at just 32w pure class A) we also have Roberto based in Costa Rica who happens to have the CLX's as well, driven with all tube amplification from CJ, and is absolutely loving it! I can just imagine...
Check out his posts under Roberto and you will get what I'm talking about- the musicality!
Enough said, and as I said it all depends on what sort of sound you're after. Don't forget one thing, although ML's were fairly notorious to drive in the past, and due to their varied impedence loads, many top quality amps found them rather difficult to drive to their full potential. Hence, the reason only a handful of well known amps could handle electrostats.
However, with the advancement of DSP, re-engineered panel design and other electronic enhancements to control ML speakers, their newer panels & hybrids are far more efficient and fairly easier to drive but this does not mean "any amp" will drive them. Of course nearly any amp will drive them, no doubt but to what extent and how well is critical.
Based on your budgets, musical tastes and listening level preferences, you should get an idea of what you want out of your intended ML speakers... and try to match all these parameters with your room. Afterall, you may have the best electronics that money could buy but if you don't have the right room or mis-judged the room's dimensions/characteristics then I'm afraid such basic elements need to be addressed first, rather than focus on electronics... get my point?
All the best mate and have a good one! Let us know how it all goes, always nice to hear from someone with new experiences.
Cheers, RJ
Have not heard but this review might be helpful:
http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/2015/12/audiophile-amplifier-review-pass-labs.html
Interesting review from a well respected person, no doubt.
The only thing about this match up- the Pass amplifier to ML speaker (Montis) combination, to me seems a bit of an overkill! That kind of power on ML hyrbids is not required for them to perform at full potential. Having a massive amp like that driving speakers that have built in amplifiers for the bass, is a waste of amplification...
I found this trait to be so, even on the Ren 15A being driven by a CJ Classic 120 and the GAT pre. Although the GAT pre was superb in every aspect, for some reason the bass was overloaded and over-energized the room. My guess is the bass controls were probably turned too high... and other parameters of room correction weren't taken into account. It will be very loud, powerful, dynamic and have all the slam required but it was not musical and listener fatigue started to set in after the first 10 mins...
ML Hybrids have minimal cross over points, or at least a single cross over point, in order to maintain most of the sound coming from the panel. Thereafter for the lowest notes, the bass drivers take over. The Pass labs will drive the panels to full potential, regardless of whether it delivers 30w or 300w. I have found Pass amps to be absolute top quality regardless of their power output. Even the INT60 drove the Montis just beautifully, and I enjoyed the Montis as much as the Ethos.
However, on another thought, I would love to take this massive Pass X350.8 for a spin on the CLX's. Now that would be one hell of a ride going electrostat full range!
Heidrum, if you have a very good Pass Labs pre-power match up at your disposal, I think it would be a superb match for any Martin Logan system. To me, the Pass Labs range of amplifiers seems very well capable of bringing out the best of Martin Logan panels, and they all sound superb!
Cheers mate,
RJ
The only thing about this match up- the Pass amplifier to ML speaker (Montis) combination, to me seems a bit of an overkill! That kind of power on ML hyrbids is not required for them to perform at full potential. Having a massive amp like that driving speakers that have built in amplifiers for the bass, is a waste of amplification...
I found this trait to be so, even on the Ren 15A being driven by a CJ Classic 120 and the GAT pre. Although the GAT pre was superb in every aspect, for some reason the bass was overloaded and over-energized the room. My guess is the bass controls were probably turned too high... and other parameters of room correction weren't taken into account. It will be very loud, powerful, dynamic and have all the slam required but it was not musical and listener fatigue started to set in after the first 10 mins...
ML Hybrids have minimal cross over points, or at least a single cross over point, in order to maintain most of the sound coming from the panel. Thereafter for the lowest notes, the bass drivers take over. The Pass labs will drive the panels to full potential, regardless of whether it delivers 30w or 300w. I have found Pass amps to be absolute top quality regardless of their power output. Even the INT60 drove the Montis just beautifully, and I enjoyed the Montis as much as the Ethos.
However, on another thought, I would love to take this massive Pass X350.8 for a spin on the CLX's. Now that would be one hell of a ride going electrostat full range!
Heidrum, if you have a very good Pass Labs pre-power match up at your disposal, I think it would be a superb match for any Martin Logan system. To me, the Pass Labs range of amplifiers seems very well capable of bringing out the best of Martin Logan panels, and they all sound superb!
Cheers mate,
RJ
Hello and good morning to you, twitch. Instead of disagreeing, how about telling us why you disagree backed up with some experience you may have with the components. It wouldn't hurt to be a little bit more polite in your response either.
Tom
Tom
Gladly Tom.........
I have owned and enjoyed various dipole speakers (Logans and Maggies) over the past 35 years and have done so with several of Nelson Pass's designs, all with great results. Along with this I have been a member of the Martin Logan Owners forum for the past twelve years, serve as it's forum administrator, sat in on numerous listening session at various locations with Pass powered Logans providing the great sonic pleasures. Also ten years ago I organized a two day pilgrimage to Lawrence, Ks where we were part of a 'beta' test for new Logan products under development. During those two days we enjoyed multiple listening sessions with the latest Logan speakers, driven by ......... Pass amplification.
As for my response, well I guess you understand why I wasn't as 'polite' as Greg feels the amps are !
I have owned prodigy and now CLX ART
I have tried a lot of amplifiers both valve and solid state
My own opinion is Goldmund are the best I have heard with CLX
Pass is one of the amplifiers often suggested as well as Conrad Johnson
I think it comes down to personal taste which is better
But the Goldmund is the only solid state I have heard that seem to handle all the issues the CLX presents
I would lamm also do this with aplomb though not powerful enough in my room
I would suspect the big pass labs would perform well if the Lamms do
My room is big so it’s not a criticism of the amps to run out of puff ...
I have tried a lot of amplifiers both valve and solid state
My own opinion is Goldmund are the best I have heard with CLX
Pass is one of the amplifiers often suggested as well as Conrad Johnson
I think it comes down to personal taste which is better
But the Goldmund is the only solid state I have heard that seem to handle all the issues the CLX presents
I would lamm also do this with aplomb though not powerful enough in my room
I would suspect the big pass labs would perform well if the Lamms do
My room is big so it’s not a criticism of the amps to run out of puff ...
LOL............but you're entitled to your 1% opinion !
go get 'em 1% er !!
My opinion is that it depends on which Pass Labs amp. I have the ML Renaissance 15A and indeed, I found either the XA30.8 or the XA60.8 mono blocks too polite and maybe even too warm. Move up to the XA100.8 and even better, the X350.8 and not too polite or warm at all. Add either the XP-22 or Xs Pre and OMG, simply heavenly! I went through a multitude of amps including the Merrill Thor/Veritas, Burmester 911 Mk3, Luxman M-900u, and Constellation Centaur II and for my tastes, the Pass Labs won out. The Burmester had the fastest transients (and perhaps was the most transparent sounding) with the Merrill amps sounding the most neutral but the Pass Labs X350.8 paired with at least an XP-22 was not far behind. Compared to the others, the Pass Labs had more air, better tonal weight, better (more realistic) decay, better textural detail, and that seductive Pass Labs tonal sweetness that brings to life my Martin Logans.
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