IS there an absolute sound?

[Steve williams]

My journey to good sound really started with an incident similar to the sort of thing that has happened for probably most people here: one day, for some reason I didn't understand, my system sounded brilliant, magic. Now, I, unlike others, then became deeply committed to trying to understand that, and to be able to replicate it at will. And I'm still on that journey.

Let me ask you this Frank....

almost any audiophile or anyone who listens to music on a regular basis will tell you that some nights of listening are more rewarding than others and sometimes not rewarding at all.In fact there was several posts today to that effect. So you had an "ah ha" moment with nothing changed in your system and you have spent the past 25 years of your life looking for that "ah ha " moment again

Once again Frank IMO you need to do some serious thinking because maybe that night was psychoacoustic, the company there, the music played, the wine you had etc etc etc but if you ask me to believe that for one night only 25 years ago your system was real with nothing having been changed in your system and you have been trying unsuccessfully to figure out why ever since ........

 

[fas42]

Once again Frank IMO you need to do some serious thinking because maybe that night was psychoacoustic, the company there, the music played, the wine you had etc etc etc but if you ask me to believe that for one night only 25 years ago your system was real with nothing having been changed in your system and you have been trying unsuccessfully to figure out why ever since ........

No, at the time I was younger, more energetic :b, and madly tweaking in the usual sense that people have of such. So the system was in constant flux, not in the sense of changing whole components, but in the sense of the status of the circuits within the components: they were working with cleaner power, I was reducing the the level of "noise" in the overall setup, in the sense that Mike uses it. Then it just happened that I had the right combination of circuit stabilisation, and "noise" reduction, for this better level of playback to occur. The big problem, and to this day still is to some degree, was that the "effect" was very transient: the system would work extremely well for a while, literally of the order of less than a quarter of an hour, and then degrade back to normal hifi quality.

Wine only comes into the equation if I listen to other people's systems, when it helps me bypass being too aware of the subtle problems that that system has.

Again, I don't believe I've been unsuccessful: my aim was to track down the underlying causes for this subtle degradation of sound happening and now feel I have a pretty good handle on things. Not perfect, but mighty close in many areas: I most certainly don't understand why this problem exists in the manifold ways it rears its ugly head, in terms of what's happening in a precise electronic part, in the way a good engineer should: this is something for someone with more energy than I have now to sort out. But I certainly have accumulated a whole set of techniques to help keep factors which degrade sound quality, in critical areas, at bay.

Frank

 

[Robh3606]

We always get back to this laws of physics bit! The way the world works is, that if something happens once that means that whatever happened is possible; the fact that it is never repeated is irrelevant. The thing happened, it was measured, witnessed to happen, it means that it does exist. Just because you can't repeat something over and over and over again by pushing a simple, big button somewhere, until everyone collapses from sheer exhaustion, is just a conceit, used by many to ridicule something that they don't understand, or are uncomfortable with. Or whose egos are threatened ...

Hello Frank

Well like it or not we should always get back to it. There is a profound difference between what is real and what is imagined. Ears only work because they are connected to a brain that decides what we hear. There are many things that influence this that are simply beyond out conscious control.

My journey to good sound really started with an incident similar to the sort of thing that has happened for probably most people here: one day, for some reason I didn't understand, my system sounded brilliant, magic. Now, I, unlike others, then became deeply committed to trying to understand that, and to be able to replicate it at will. And I'm still on that journey.

I am not surprised it hasn't happened again. You need to take breath step back and relax. It all comes down to your state of mind. Your are so caught up in the pursuit that it just won't happen again. I think you are trying to hard. I don't worry about it all that much and every once in a while I get treated to one of those nights.

Funny how you picked on the physics bit but passed on the fact we have had similar experiences.

Rob

 

[fas42]

I am not surprised it hasn't happened again. You need to take breath step back and relax. It all comes down to your state of mind. Your are so caught up in the pursuit that it just won't happen again. I think you are trying to hard. I don't worry about it all that much and every once in a while I get treated to one of those nights.

Funny how you picked on the physics bit but passed on the fact we have had similar experiences.

Rob

Perhaps a few people here misunderstand me. I've experienced the "good stuff" over and over again: even when I started my "quest" I could do that. I learnt, by a process of trial and error, that if the system was in a certain stable state, and if I then then did a series of things, essentially resetting influences which were disturbing the sound quality, then I could get my the premium sound quality back. The problem, as I've mentioned here many times, is that this level of performance then started to fade away, each and every time -- that's where the real issue was for me then.

Nowadays, it's pretty stable: main hassle is that it takes several hours to come up to top notch form, unless I drive it full bore from the word go. This is the advantage of having better speakers ...

Real and imagined? That is exactly how the brain works; it does create a construct from information coming in, which bears little resemblence to what the electrical impulses are "saying". I recall an experiment where they tested the optical qualities of the human eye, and sorry, that whole piece of our body is a bit of rubbish: not fit to use in a 100 year old Brownie camera. In other words, our mind "fills in the gaps", and obviously does a remarkably good job of it. And the same goes for the ear ...

Why I particularly said that, is that I just had a "ah haa!" moment. Elsewhere on the net someone tried a very simple, very short blind test, to see if making a change affected sound quality. He started well, then kept getting things wrong; as in he thought the quality remained good even though it had dropped. Then he realised what was happening: he had picked up the clues of how the sound should be from the good version, and was subconsciously, unintentionally altering the poorer version to match the good. This was all a game being played out in his head, his brain was compensating automatically for the sound not being as good, because it knew what it should sound like. So, once he had tweaked to this, he changed his tactics, relaxed, stopped concentrating hard, and got every following change right.

So, this says to me, and he commented the same: where does this leave the notorious DBT? That piece of meat in your skull is smarter than the "experts" would like it to be, it "fills in the gaps" if you make it easy to do so, by rapidly changing from the better to the worse. The people who instinctively let the sound swirl around a bit, like a good red wine in a deep glass, before deciding, may be doing it the better way after all ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

... Then it just happened that I had the right combination of circuit stabilisation, and "noise" reduction, for this better level of playback to occur...

Frank

"Stabilization" with a 'z' Frank. :b

 

[fas42]

"Stabilization" with a 'z' Frank. :b

Guess you Canadians have been taken over just about entirely by them goddam Yanks: we good British stock down here use the soft 's' ... :b:b

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Guess you Canadians have been taken over just about entirely by them goddam Yanks: we good British stock down here use the soft 's' ... :b:b

Frank

Abzolutely! :b ... Zounds good Frank. :b

 

[Robert]

Hello Frank

Well like it or not we should always get back to it. There is a profound difference between what is real and what is imagined. Ears only work because they are connected to a brain that decides what we hear. There are many things that influence this that are simply beyond out conscious control.



I am not surprised it hasn't happened again. You need to take breath step back and relax. It all comes down to your state of mind. Your are so caught up in the pursuit that it just won't happen again. I think you are trying to hard. I don't worry about it all that much and every once in a while I get treated to one of those nights.

Funny how you picked on the physics bit but passed on the fact we have had similar experiences.

Rob

Rob, if I may "pick" on you, and preface my comments with the acknowledgment that I am most certain you enjoy music tremendously. But, I think this illustrates Elliot's point precisely. It has become apparent to me that we are not talking the same language. In other words, we are on different wavelengths, different pages, a world apart. And it seems like the more we try to explain our sides to one another, the farther away we become. By the language you use, it seems like you have not experienced that which I am explaining and may even be resistant. By the language you use, you seem to think I am susceptible to trickery and have a productive imagination. I actully wish I had a better imagination, but those rare 'blue moon' listening experiences occur for me any time I turn on the stereo. My stereo was not always consistent in the past, but the difference now in the way the sound from my stereo "congeals" from hour-to-hour and day-to-day is practically neglible.

There seems no way to reconcile this through words. How do we bridge the divide? Of course, when words don't suffice, music should do the explaining. I'm not sure which Moya you are from, but it doesn't sound close to me. Elliot, what are we supposed to do?

 

[Robh3606]

Rob, if I may "pick" on you

Hello Robert

Feel free this is all in good fun.

In other words, we are on different wavelengths, different pages, a world apart.

Maybe we are. If you were in the next town we could sit down and listen to some music and see.

but those rare 'blue moon' listening experiences occur for me any time I turn on the stereo.

That’s great I am happy for you.

My stereo was not always consistent in the past, but the difference now in the way the sound from my stereo "congeals" from hour-to-hour and day-to-day is practically neglible.

This could be where we differ. I don’t see the stereo as the variable I am the weakest link in the chain. I know I am the one that changes the most over time not the stereo. If I have a head cold as an example I know it will effect my experience. My moods among other things also affects what I hear. I have to do a better job of getting out of my own way. Not so easy. It’s always good but when that happens it’s great.

it seems like you have not experienced that which I am explaining and may even be resistant.

I wouldn’t say that. I just look at it things a bit differently. It’s not a perfect world and I don’t expect a perfect listening experience everytime I turn on the stereo.

By the language you use, you seem to think I am susceptible to trickery and have a productive imagination

Well again I see myself as the weakest link. You look at things the other way round.

Rob

 

[Steve williams]

Rob, if I may "pick" on you, and preface my comments with the acknowledgment that I am most certain you enjoy music tremendously. But, I think this illustrates Elliot's point precisely. It has become apparent to me that we are not talking the same language. In other words, we are on different wavelengths, different pages, a world apart. And it seems like the more we try to explain our sides to one another, the farther away we become. By the language you use, it seems like you have not experienced that which I am explaining and may even be resistant. By the language you use, you seem to think I am susceptible to trickery and have a productive imagination. I actully wish I had a better imagination, but those rare 'blue moon' listening experiences occur for me any time I turn on the stereo. My stereo was not always consistent in the past, but the difference now in the way the sound from my stereo "congeals" from hour-to-hour and day-to-day is practically neglible.

There seems no way to reconcile this through words. How do we bridge the divide? Of course, when words don't suffice, music should do the explaining. I'm not sure which Moya you are from, but it doesn't sound close to me. Elliot, what are we supposed to do?

Personally I feel that Robert gave you some very sound advice. Unfortunately you can't see the trees for the forest and to me, your story changes from post to post.
You need to take a deep breath and relax because you're not telling anyone anything new here

 

[Robert]

I saw this interesting piece by Jim Smith where you can hear his system with a collection of music for voicing a system, and then use that same collection to tune your own system. In this case, Jim is suggesting that his stereo be used as a reference, and one should see how close you can get. He offers support on getting there.

http://getbettersound.com/roomplay-reference.html

I think this sounds very much like what Elliot was proposing. The session includes 6 CDs and 72 tracks over 5 hours. If anyone has done this, their feedback would be interesting.

Have a look at "The Art of the Possible" on that page. I think Jim did a very good job putting the absolute audio experience into words.

 

[Steve williams]

very interesting read Robert but who is he?

 

[MylesBAstor]

very interesting read Robert but who is he?

Jim has been in the industry for many years. Don't know his entire resume but he worked at ARC in the early days and when I really got to know him, he was the importer of Avante Garde speakers. Not sure what he's doing now?

 

[Steve williams]

Looks like he is doing this

 

[RogerD]

Thanks for posting this;

http://getbettersound.com/roomplay-reference.html

That's about a good of explanation I have read. I'll just add 2 things,one,is clarity as a marker. Clarity can always improve and it is my main marker. The only problem is,hearing a break through for me was a recording. Not all recordings are equal. Another marker of mine is presence,experiencing it at a high level,like a Aeolian Skinner organ should drop your jaw not only in the majesty but also in it's beauty.

 

[Robh3606]

There’s only one place where I hear all of the notes reproduced correctly with all of the soundstage, presence, tone, dynamics and musical involvement presented properly. That’s on my own system, in my listening room. Industry vets and advanced audiophiles who’ve experienced this system unanimously agree.

The only place?? So in a nut shell come listen to the Holly Grail. What if I don't like what I hear. Am I wrong??

Carrying it with you.

I guarantee that you will carry this sound with you when you get back home. It will serve as a reference. But it can only be a true reference if you have it to play on your system, so that you can compare what is possible with what you are hearing.

So we are to remember what we heard and use that as a reference?? Isn't that what we do now??

Stereophile has several CD's where they go through what they should sound like on your system. Similar approach??

Has anyone actually done this and were you happy??

Rob

 

[NorthStar]

I saw this interesting piece by Jim Smith where you can hear his system with a collection of music for voicing a system, and then use that same collection to tune your own system. In this case, Jim is suggesting that his stereo be used as a reference, and one should see how close you can get. He offers support on getting there.

http://getbettersound.com/roomplay-reference.html

I think this sounds very much like what Elliot was proposing. The session includes 6 CDs and 72 tracks over 5 hours. If anyone has done this, their feedback would be interesting.

Have a look at "The Art of the Possible" on that page. I think Jim did a very good job putting the absolute audio experience into words.

Thanks for that link Robert! :b

 

[RogerD]

I saw this interesting piece by Jim Smith where you can hear his system with a collection of music for voicing a system, and then use that same collection to tune your own system. In this case, Jim is suggesting that his stereo be used as a reference, and one should see how close you can get. He offers support on getting there.

http://getbettersound.com/roomplay-reference.html

I think this sounds very much like what Elliot was proposing. The session includes 6 CDs and 72 tracks over 5 hours. If anyone has done this, their feedback would be interesting.

Have a look at "The Art of the Possible" on that page. I think Jim did a very good job putting the absolute audio experience into words.

The DVD set is on sale for 20 bucks so I ordered a set.....with that much experience(Jim Smith), maybe I can improve my setup.

 

[fas42]

Thanks for putting up that link, Robert. As you say, an excellent summary of the vital qualities of a well performing system. His rundown is full of quotable quotes, indeed some of his language almost echos the ramblings of some other, strange individual; can't quite put my finger on his name though ...

Such as:

I cannot recall a single audiophile who had sound quality that was at a level worthy of the sound system that they owned.

and:

In fact, I’ve never met anyone who seems to have the full grasp of what is possible in his or her room.

Tsk, tsk ...

My only quibbles are that he approaches the "solution" from the point of view of "working with the room": this could be highly effective if you genuinely know what you're after, of course. And he still states that having a "correct seating position" is critical. For me, that would be unacceptable; unless all the virtues listed were achieved when listening from an arbitary position in the room then I would not judge it a success. But since the producer of this product does not appear to focus on the heavier level of tweaking, especially internally to the components, that I've found necessary to get to such a level, then I accept that his techniques could or would be extremely worthwhile to those who don't want to go down the road that I've taken.

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Hi Frank, :b

Who said that (from your two quotes above)? :b