Is there something obviously wrong with my electrical?
- Thread starter MadFloyd
- Start date
Really????
http://www.shunyata.com/our-product...ist-ref-series/84-hydra-typhon#!typhon_inside
"Shunyata Research’s HYDRA TRITON power distributor was originally conceived as a reference caliber power distributor that bore no compromise in design scale or performance. As the project evolved, the TRITON’s size and cost escalated beyond practical limits. ....."
http://www.shunyata.com/our-product...f-series/84-hydra-typhon#!typhon_triton_combo
"The Shunyata Research TRITON is the top model in the company’s third generation of HYDRA power distributors. It sends electricity from a single wall outlet to eight sockets (ten in 240VAC units) using a buss system that Shunyata claims is capable of supporting the current demand of virtually any audio system. The TRITON is an entirely passive device that also provides its client component with noise suppression and surge protection."
Maybe my laser surgery ain't quite what it used to be but I can still read.
I know nothing about Shunyata products, except for their Dark Field v2 cable lifters, and I don't recall ever hearing anything negative about Shunyata so I'm purely speculating and not attempting to be dogmatic.
But from what I can tell on their website, using their own words, it's a power distributor with some small or great form of AC filtering (noise suppression) and surge suppression, at least for the Typhon's cousin the Triton. Their Typhon webpage talks more about the Triton.
Nevertheless, it is not speculation that when any type of AC filtering is doubled up with any other type of AC filtering the sonic results are almost always negative, especially if different manufacturer's and methodologies are employed. And it does not matter how good the products really are.
So part of my suggestion to the OP was as a precaution, just in case the Equi-Tech is employing any type of "noise suppression" on its own. Also implied in my suggestion is that it's entirely possible that his CDP may have some type of noise suppression inside the unit like maybe a $5 AC filter soldered onto the back of the IEC inlet. If either case is true, it will most likely butt heads with any noise suppression from the Typhon and degrade sonics to some degree.
That's what the suggested test could help determine.
If the CDP sounds better plugged into a 3rd outlet without the Typhon, (an AC circuit separate from the Equi-Tech circuits) it just might sound better. From there the OP can re-install the Typhon to the CDP and if there's no AC filtering inside the CDP and if the Typhon is a superior unit, it should sound better still.
But my first guess is that there is some type of noise suppression collision between the Typhon and the Equi-Tech.
But again, that's what the suggested test could help determine.
BTW, it seems clear that the Triton provides some form of surge protection. Aside from having a whole-house surge protection installed by the power company at a previous house, I've never dabbled with any type surge suppression. Nevertheless, I've had friends and colleague dabble with surge suppression and I've read plenty of strangers' posts who've dabbled with surge suppression mostly with negative results. But by no means does this imply Shunyata falls into that camp.
I just make it a point for myself to stay clear of any surge suppression technologies.
Moreover, if anybody happens to express concern that their sound is lacking musicality of any type and they own a product that includes surge suppression, I never hesitate to suggest a test.
I just make it a point for myself to stay clear of any surge suppression technologies.
Moreover, if anybody happens to express concern that their sound is lacking musicality of any type and they own a product that includes surge suppression, I never hesitate to suggest a test.
The Triton has a 20 amp breaker. Perhaps they need to rephrase their web literature to more accurately note that without confusing people. Of course, if a circuit breaker is considereed a surge suppressor then all the circuits in my house have surge suppression.
g'day Stehno,
Speculation that removing the Typhon from the circuit is likely to increase the musicality or be a fix for thin bass balance is probably about 180 degrees away from reality. I also thought that the culprit here had already been traced to an under-spec transformer for the equitech tho could be wrong.
In regards to the concern for loss of sq with whole of house surge suppression or even the single Carling electromagnetic hydraulic breaker in a Triton is fairly much not a significant issue given the $100,000s of wide band width high performance gear in a state of art setup like Madfloyd's and besides it'd be crazy irresponsible bordering on pure insanity to run that much gear unprotected.
I could see how a less expensive setup you could possibly make a case for running the risk and avoid the attendant issues with cheaper noise suppression gear like any impeding of the current flow. Anything that detracts from musicality is going to be potentially even more of an issue in a system without a preamp as they often potentially lack a certain dynamic drive and so with your Oppo 103 running direct into your W4S class d amps any loss of musicality rather than loss of detail might be more of a critical issue especially given the D class breeds traditional tendency to some dryness and an overly analytical presentation ( tho apparently not as much of an issue with the later generation D class amps).
Speculation that removing the Typhon from the circuit is likely to increase the musicality or be a fix for thin bass balance is probably about 180 degrees away from reality. I also thought that the culprit here had already been traced to an under-spec transformer for the equitech tho could be wrong.
In regards to the concern for loss of sq with whole of house surge suppression or even the single Carling electromagnetic hydraulic breaker in a Triton is fairly much not a significant issue given the $100,000s of wide band width high performance gear in a state of art setup like Madfloyd's and besides it'd be crazy irresponsible bordering on pure insanity to run that much gear unprotected.
I could see how a less expensive setup you could possibly make a case for running the risk and avoid the attendant issues with cheaper noise suppression gear like any impeding of the current flow. Anything that detracts from musicality is going to be potentially even more of an issue in a system without a preamp as they often potentially lack a certain dynamic drive and so with your Oppo 103 running direct into your W4S class d amps any loss of musicality rather than loss of detail might be more of a critical issue especially given the D class breeds traditional tendency to some dryness and an overly analytical presentation ( tho apparently not as much of an issue with the later generation D class amps).
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Tao, I never said my whole-house surge protection compromised my SQ. Nor did I say a breaker or fuse (both are forms of surge protection) affect SQ. (But I'd venture that a fuse may). But every last electronic component and service panel provides such standard surge suppression.
If that's the only "surge protection" provided by the Shunyata units, I'd have no concern. But there are products (can't even think of any names) that offer specific "surge protection" features and is one of their primary purposes for existing. Those are the products I generally think of staying away from.
Moreover, at the moment the OP is only using the Typhon on his CDP. So where you get the idea that it's protecting his entire system is beyond me.
Look, I suggested a simple test in which the OP has issued concern about potentially more than usual SQ concerns. You guys don't want him to test everything but instead have him believe everything in his system is exactly as advertised or that he has no SQ issues, have at it.
Funny you mention my system's potential lack of dynamics. Based on what I'm able to accomplish by addressing universal distortions, I've always prided myself in having the most dynamic system I've encountered. But when I downgraded/upgrade to the W4W 575wpc amps, it seemed every last note's initial attack was so in my face and causing an electronics induced jump factor, that by removing the preamp altogether with its amplified gain stage and instead using the OPPO's (105) passive volume attenuation, not only did it put all the music (especially a notes initial attack) back up on the soundstage stage, but it also seemed to eliminate much distortion (that I suspect was induced by the active preamps' amplified gain stage) the overall music presentation became significantly more pristine, even delicate. Moreover, I still have perhaps the most dynamic presentation I've yet encountered only now the dynamics are far more natural and with a reasonable distance between my ears (planted firmly in the audience) and the music up on the soundstage where it belongs. I swore long ago I'd never go the passive route. I attribute the dynamics to the 575wpc amps. Only my volume maxes out at maybe 104db as a result of the passive volume attenuation.
As for your speculation that most / all Class D amps having a tendency to be dry or overly analytical, I wouldn't know as I've only owned two different types of Class D amps. But I can say that in both of my cases, the Class D's were significantly more musical than their multiple times more expensive Class A/B amps they replaced.
Via my limited experience, I suspect Class D (not all) has the potential of being more revealing than Class A, A/B amps. But the problem with a product that is more revealing is that it is indiscriminate about what it reveals. Hence, if more music info becomes audible, so do a system's distortions. One of those distortions is noisy AC and if I could not use superior line conditioners to minimize that noisy AC, I'd much prefer not to employ my Class D amps. For a time I sold Nuforce amps out of the home and when I'd loan out a pair for auditioning, the only ones that ever came back were those who did not employ superior line conditioning. They all pretty much declared the same thing. Too dry, too analytical, too detailed (as if there is such a thing), etc.
So if this is your experience with Class D, I'd be interested in knowing what you do for addressing noisy AC.
The other universal distortion that far more severely compromises all systems is inferior vibration mgmt. Hopefully, you would agree that a feather is more impacted by unwanted mechanical energy than a concrete brick. Since some-to-many Class D amps weigh only 1/10th of many traditional Class A, A/B amps it should be a given that they are perhaps more susceptible to unwanted vibrations. Especially since maybe 95% of their circuitry resides on a thin PCB board within the chassis. That said, I've had to go to extreme lengths to apply a superior form of vibration mgmt to the W4S amps but that extreme effort also made all the difference in the world from a musicality perspective.
BTW, Tao, you're not implying that cost has anything directly to do with performance are you? Or that perhaps because my system may cost less than some-to-many that I somehow lack credibility? Or that I may not know what I'm talking about? That would be rather silly if you were.
If that is what you're insinuating, then the very significant sonic improvements I noticed when I upgraded/downgraded from my $9k Esoteric to my $1.3k OPPO would have to be only in my imagination. Or when I upgraded/downgraded from my $8k BMC Class A/B int. amp down to my $2.4k W4S amps then my claims that the BMC int. amp sounds more like a $50 BestBuy receiver in comparison, why I'd have to be lying through my teeth, wouldn't I?
Besides, if any of these were your potential insinuations that wouldn't be favorable toward you if (and it is so) my system was significantly more musical than yours. Near as I can tell, about the only thing such insinuations might imply is that you spend way too much time reading Stereophile or The Absolute Sound magazines.
Seriously Stehno?? A blast of paranoid outrage is just not cool or necessary. My only interest in this thread is actually in Madfloyd's system. The comment to you was primarily clearing up a total misconception that you had about the effect of a Shunyata Typhon in a system but that is always the danger with your regular assumptions on components that you have zero experience with.
As far as your gear specifically you brought them up and I was clarifying that they had little or no context with Ian's system that has a degree of resolution way beyond normal and that opens up a whole different set of issues about fine-tuning beyond the norm based on my experience with some more resolving setups.
Beyond that I made no comment on the quality of your gear good, bad or otherwise but only recognizing a characteristic analytical quality that pairing with no preamp stage would make and I have heard both of these components at times as well as a range of other Sabre based dacs and a few d class amps.
On me making any insinuation at all or dismissing your gear based on their price you are just plain wrong and I happily and regularly enjoy music on a range of systems from $5k to $500k and also have gear from modest to more expensive in my own systems and enjoy both good music and good value above all. Just chill out Stehno and let's just get back to Madfloyd's system which is actually the point and something we can all learn much from.
As far as your gear specifically you brought them up and I was clarifying that they had little or no context with Ian's system that has a degree of resolution way beyond normal and that opens up a whole different set of issues about fine-tuning beyond the norm based on my experience with some more resolving setups.
Beyond that I made no comment on the quality of your gear good, bad or otherwise but only recognizing a characteristic analytical quality that pairing with no preamp stage would make and I have heard both of these components at times as well as a range of other Sabre based dacs and a few d class amps.
On me making any insinuation at all or dismissing your gear based on their price you are just plain wrong and I happily and regularly enjoy music on a range of systems from $5k to $500k and also have gear from modest to more expensive in my own systems and enjoy both good music and good value above all. Just chill out Stehno and let's just get back to Madfloyd's system which is actually the point and something we can all learn much from.
I believe you, Tao.
Tell me. Is there any part of MacFloyd's system that isn't sacrosanct when speculating why he experienc(ed) a light bass and overall thin sound in regards to his electrical concerns?
I believe you, Tao.
Tell me. Is there any part of MacFloyd's system that isn't sacrosanct when speculating why he experienc(ed) a light bass and overall thin sound in regards to his electrical concerns?
Stehno, could you clarify what you mean by this post? I have the impression from this thread that MadFloyd has more or less solved the issues initially raised in the OP.
Hi, Peter. I had not read anywhere where Mac alluded to "problem solved" so I assumed the thread just died of natural causes. I even asked MacFloyd if his problem was resolved but his only response was the amps were now on their own dedicated circuits.
I was just reiterating that MacFloyd at some point suspected he had issues with his electrical that was potentially inducing an abnormally thin presentation with weak bass. In my attempt to speculate via some internet troubleshooting, those unfamiliar with the problems of doubling up or daisy-chaining differing AC filtering / line conditioning methodologies most always will worsen the presentation, not improve it. Regardless of the quality of either.
For example. Let's say you have a $50k amp whose performance you deem is above reproach. That amp mtg'er discovered during his R&D that when he solders a $5 AC filter to the back of his $50k IEC inlet, he noticed that it sounds slightly more musical and gives his product a slight musical edge over the competition. And say, just as many-to-most, that mtg'er never engaged in any other type of AC filtering / line conditioning, so to his ears and to the many-to-most's ears that $5 AC filter he soldered to the back of his IEC inlet proves beneficial.
You've purchased and have now owned and enjoyed the performance of that $50k amp one year. Along comes a new $25k superior state-of-the-art line conditioner that everybody rants and raves about. You have no experience with AC filtering / line conditioning products but decide to see what all the hub-bub is about so you audition this new line conditioner over the weekend by plugging it into your $50k amp whose performance you so enjoyed the past year. Upon first listen, the music presentation just took a bit of a nose dive. Not much but clearly not as detailed nor as musical as before installing the highly rated line conditioner.
Now you probably know nothing about the cheap $5 AC filter inside the $50k amp, nor do you have any experience with line conditioning of any kind. But you consider yourself an astute audiophile with a fairly well-trained ear.
By default, guess which product is to blame for the demise in sound quality? Not the amplifier but the superior line conditioner and the line conditioner is now deemed by you to be an inferior product, perhaps you make the leap to thinking it’s snake oil. Maybe you even conclude since the industry deemed this to be the best line conditioner available and since the best line conditioner made your system sound worse, perhaps all line conditioners are snake oil and hype and anybody owning a line conditioner is being deceived.
All of this very real potential can and does occur not because of the superior $50k amp nor because of the superior $25k line conditioner. But because of the cheap $5 AC filter soldered behind the amp's IEC inlet.
What does any of this have to do with answering your question?
Simply that no matter how much somebody desires to put a product up on a pedestal and pretend it’s about reproach, regardless of its standing in the industry, it still remains a viable detriment in certain configurations.
And I’m not saying anything negative (or positive) about the Shunyata in the least. But apparently it’s not just a power strip or power distributor as some thought it to be since according to the Shunyata website the Typhon and/or Triton employs some forms of noise suppression and perhaps some form of surge protection. Two variables that at least two current owners were unaware of. Hence, two additional variables that can cause performance collisions with other products. Collision that apparently some were unaware of until now.
That was part of what my suggestion for testing was about. To perform a process of elimination to check for compatibility vs collision in a specific configuration that obviously includes the Equi-Tech, maybe even some $5 AC filters here or there, and maybe even some other unknowns that any one of MacFloyd’s mfg’ers may be employing.
But apparently to some, the Shunyata is sacrosanct and therefore needs to be removed from any electrical troubleshooting equation altogether and I should repent for even daring such a suggestion.
This is nothing more (or less) than pure dogmatism.
stehno, Madfloyd has not responded to your question about the thin sound that he used to hear. I can't recall if it was on digital, analog or both. He now has both amps on dedicated 20 amp circuits. The Shunyata product may or may not be still in the path. And if it is, it is unclear to me if it is in the analog or digital path.
I do know that when I last heard the system, it sounded fantastic. No thinness at all, though my reference is live acoustic and my system based on mini monitors. His is the best system I've ever heard, frankly. I listened more to analog, because that is my thing and that is the music that I brought over to hear.
Perhaps Madfloyd will join the discussion to answer your questions directly. I don't know what he has done with the Shunyata product.
Got it, MacFloyd. Sorry for bringing the thread back to life as I obviously didn't read that page. Plus I was thrown off by what I thought was a more recent post where you said you had everything plugged into a single 15 amp outlet / circuit connected to the Equi-Tech. I suspect the dynamics was the most obvious improvement???
Thanks for the update, Peter. BTW, I think MacFloyd stated yesterday that his Typhon was connected only to his CDP and nothing else.
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