Is Your Loudspeaker Perfect For You?

[Jägerst.]

There was also a bit bass flabbiness that showed itself at higher volumes. I had always thought some of that was just my room and floor resonating, but when I reconfigured the system from a vertical bi-amp setup with identical tube amps on each side to a hybrid bi-amp setup using the twin tube amps on the mids/tweeters, and a solid state amp on the woofers to a horizontal bi-amp configuration, that issue improved a lot.

These are interesting areas to experiment with vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping, not least in conjunction with hybrid or identical amp pairings. Vertical config. naturally necessitates identical amps in the frequency range they've been designated to handle per channel, but using the same, identical amps in a horizontal config. as well can bring out some illuminating findings when comparing the two scenarios, even though many feel more inclined to go with hybrid solutions in a horizontal config. - as you've done yourself.

My speaker context is a purely active configuration through and through (outboard, 3-way) - that is, for both subs and main speakers - so I need separate amps to handle each driver section/way anyway. Initially I used three different amps to cover each driver section that were both power and "quality"/type differentiated (one class A for the MF/HF section, and two class D variants for the mid basses and subs respectively), but after some experimentation I wound up using essentially three similar amps top to bottom (class A/B). Doing that made for a noticeably more coherent and of-a-piece sounding outcome, worthwhile even - surprisingly - when extending the use of a similar amp into the subs region (<85Hz). More on that later.

Having similar amps to cover the main speaker frequency range would seem at first "enough" or certainly of primary concern, and adding subs mostly means buying a bundled, active solution with its own build-in and typically class D designed amp plus DSP, that is then in the need to be integrated with the (typically passive) main speakers with their own amp(s). Being however that my approach is an outboard active one, I can and must choose my own amps, and this offers some interesting findings and not least freedom into the choice of amps and what they mean across the range.

Some may scoff at the ultimate importance of the type of amp used for sub duties (say, below ~100Hz), and much fewer of them will ever get to actually experiment with it hands-on to test their preconceptions. I can say however that it matters more than I thought, and that not least using the same amp (or certainly overall topology and design) over the subs is vital in bringing about that particular sense of coherency and wholeness of presentation. Active config. only adds to that advantage, top to bottom.

Finding the proper, and essentially similar amps to cover all frequency ranges may at first seem daunting; isn't excess wattage for the top end a waste, are quality wattages wasted down low, and wouldn't amps with simply a higher damping factor and more power be the better choice here? Assuming an amp with a good power supply, plenty of power reserve and an overall sound, balanced approach in its sonic presentation, it is to my mind (and specific setup context) much more important to have a similarity of "signature" top to bottom than a "tailor made" and differentiated amp approach for each driver section. What is most striking perhaps, and what most seem to be missing out on, is the importance of the subs amp (if subs are used) for the entire presentation.

Bypassing the passive low pass woofer crossover, and adding an active low pass crossover at 80hz brought the bass to another level. Bass is now excellent when the speakers are placed appropriately, plus I have the flexibility to fine tune the crossover frequency and woofer output relative to the mids and tweeters. The whole bass range is excellent, and I'm quite pleased with it...any former areas of concern are no more.

Great, and a testament to the potential of active configuration when bypassing the passive crossover.

My mid- to high-ish end journey has taken me from Harbeth 30.2/HSU subs/BHK 300s - then wanting something with more “punch” to Focal Kanta 3s. Then an upgrade in the same direction to Rockport Atria ii’s/REL/D’Agostino Progressive Integrated. Was quite happy until oddly enough I bought a pair of Tannoy Mini Autographs for my bedroom (w/REL/Naim UnitiAtom) and discovered an entirely different approach to sound reproduction than Focal/Rockport/Magico:Wilson, et al. I went on the hunt to hear bigger Tannoy’s. I auditioned Kensington/Pathos hybrid combo which I ended up purchasing.

As incredible as these other brands are (I mention them because my listening experience is mostly of them, my perspective as a performing musician there was always felt there was something inauthentic about the “pinpoint” soundstage accuracy these brands produce so incredibly well. Maybe it’s because I’m a classical musician and more used to a live “blend” on a stage than one might hear with non-acoustic music being engineered through multiple speakers in performance. In any case, for now they suit my taste. (Which is not to say I don’t love a good Jethro Tull session).

What's interesting to me here is the use (with the Tannoy's) of a single point source per channel, and that this aspect may be essential to your preference. Are the Tannoy's "simpler" to listen to, or easier in a sense vs. the other speakers you're referring to?

 

[exupgh12]

I would say that my speakers are giving me the “sonic characteristics” (“house sound”?) that I am looking for at this point.

My mid- to high-ish end journey has taken me from Harbeth 30.2/HSU subs/BHK 300s - then wanting something with more “punch” to Focal Kanta 3s. Then an upgrade in the same direction to Rockport Atria ii’s/REL/D’Agostino Progressive Integrated. Was quite happy until oddly enough I bought a pair of Tannoy Mini Autographs for my bedroom (w/REL/Naim UnitiAtom) and discovered an entirely different approach to sound reproduction than Focal/Rockport/Magico:Wilson, et al. I went on the hunt to hear bigger Tannoy’s. I auditioned Kensington/Pathos hybrid combo which I ended up purchasing.

As incredible as these other brands are (I mention them because my listening experience is mostly of them, my perspective as a performing musician there was always felt there was something inauthentic about the “pinpoint” soundstage accuracy these brands produce so incredibly well. Maybe it’s because I’m a classical musician and more used to a live “blend” on a stage than one might hear with non-acoustic music being engineered through multiple speakers in performance. In any case, for now they suit my taste. (Which is not to say I don’t love a good Jethro Tull session).

There may be other Tannoys or brands which do it better, but so far every other add to my system (most recently a Sean Jacobs DC4/ACR6 LPS for my DAVE - amazing) has reinforced and added to what I seem to be looking for these days. Next year…who knows?

I understand and resonate with your sentiment; in the realm of audio systems, I firmly believe that a one-size-fits-all approach isn't applicable. Currently, I own a transistor amp paired with Magico speakers, a setup that I adore. However, my fascination extends to various other configurations. Whether it's a transistor amp matched with speakers like Wilson Audio, Rockport, TAD, Tidal, or setups involving SET amps connected to speakers such as LV R80, Devour, Trenner & Friedl, Avantgarde Trio, among others, each captivates me in its unique way.

With any of these systems, I would find contentment and joy. While some might excel in certain aspects over others, each offers its distinctive charm, providing me with immense pleasure. If circumstances allow, I'd love to have a home that accommodates multiple audio systems, reminiscent of stepping into a toy shop during childhood – a place of boundless excitement and possibilities.

 

[Dogberry]

Do you consider your loudspeaker perfect for your personal sonic preferences and perfect for your ears?

Do you believe that loudspeakers are the most difficult or "problematic" category of components?

Do you believe there is such a thing as the "perfect" loudspeaker for you personally? Or is some compromise, large or small, inevitably part of the equation of every loudspeaker. (A "compromise" could be in size of loudspeaker or drive requirements or frequency balance or dynamics or transparency or any of the sonic characteristics we ever talk about.)

How would you apply these questions to your current loudspeaker?

Yes.
No.
See (a).
I did.

Like rDin above, I have settled on electrostatic speakers and a subwoofer.

 

[Kingrex]

Are you sure you are even getting everything you can out of your speakers?

Good point Marc. I am shocked how much more I like my speakers sonically with my new amps. Even the guy who made the amps said he didn't think the speaker had it in it.
I still need bass. But I'm going to say a big part of that is my room.

 

[Audiohertz2]

The Room and also the fact, baffle cut off is real ...!


Regards

 

[2fastdriving]

Good point Marc. I am shocked how much more I like my speakers sonically with my new amps. Even the guy who made the amps said he didn't think the speaker had it in it.
I still need bass. But I'm going to say a big part of that is my room.

You got your amps? I need to come hear them!

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Yes.

 

[Long Live Analog]

In short, yes my Aerial 7t’s suit me just fine.

 

[Kingrex]

You got your amps? I need to come hear them!

Yes they are here. Any time.

 

[dgale]

I understand and resonate with your sentiment; in the realm of audio systems, I firmly believe that a one-size-fits-all approach isn't applicable. Currently, I own a transistor amp paired with Magico speakers, a setup that I adore. However, my fascination extends to various other configurations. Whether it's a transistor amp matched with speakers like Wilson Audio, Rockport, TAD, Tidal, or setups involving SET amps connected to speakers such as LV R80, Devour, Trenner & Friedl, Avantgarde Trio, among others, each captivates me in its unique way.

With any of these systems, I would find contentment and joy. While some might excel in certain aspects over others, each offers its distinctive charm, providing me with immense pleasure. If circumstances allow, I'd love to have a home that accommodates multiple audio systems, reminiscent of stepping into a toy shop during childhood – a place of boundless excitement and possibilities.

Like many other hobbies or pursuits, it’s more about the journey than the destination.

 

[dgale]

These are interesting areas to experiment with vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping, not least in conjunction with hybrid or identical amp pairings. Vertical config. naturally necessitates identical amps in the frequency range they've been designated to handle per channel, but using the same, identical amps in a horizontal config. as well can bring out some illuminating findings when comparing the two scenarios, even though many feel more inclined to go with hybrid solutions in a horizontal config. - as you've done yourself.

My speaker context is a purely active configuration through and through (outboard, 3-way) - that is, for both subs and main speakers - so I need separate amps to handle each driver section/way anyway. Initially I used three different amps to cover each driver section that were both power and "quality"/type differentiated (one class A for the MF/HF section, and two class D variants for the mid basses and subs respectively), but after some experimentation I wound up using essentially three similar amps top to bottom (class A/B). Doing that made for a noticeably more coherent and of-a-piece sounding outcome, worthwhile even - surprisingly - when extending the use of a similar amp into the subs region (<85Hz). More on that later.

Having similar amps to cover the main speaker frequency range would seem at first "enough" or certainly of primary concern, and adding subs mostly means buying a bundled, active solution with its own build-in and typically class D designed amp plus DSP, that is then in the need to be integrated with the (typically passive) main speakers with their own amp(s). Being however that my approach is an outboard active one, I can and must choose my own amps, and this offers some interesting findings and not least freedom into the choice of amps and what they mean across the range.

Some may scoff at the ultimate importance of the type of amp used for sub duties (say, below ~100Hz), and much fewer of them will ever get to actually experiment with it hands-on to test their preconceptions. I can say however that it matters more than I thought, and that not least using the same amp (or certainly overall topology and design) over the subs is vital in bringing about that particular sense of coherency and wholeness of presentation. Active config. only adds to that advantage, top to bottom.

Finding the proper, and essentially similar amps to cover all frequency ranges may at first seem daunting; isn't excess wattage for the top end a waste, are quality wattages wasted down low, and wouldn't amps with simply a higher damping factor and more power be the better choice here? Assuming an amp with a good power supply, plenty of power reserve and an overall sound, balanced approach in its sonic presentation, it is to my mind (and specific setup context) much more important to have a similarity of "signature" top to bottom than a "tailor made" and differentiated amp approach for each driver section. What is most striking perhaps, and what most seem to be missing out on, is the importance of the subs amp (if subs are used) for the entire presentation.

Great, and a testament to the potential of active configuration when bypassing the passive crossover.

What's interesting to me here is the use (with the Tannoy's) of a single point source per channel, and that this aspect may be essential to your preference. Are the Tannoy's "simpler" to listen to, or easier in a sense vs. the other speakers you're referring to?

That’s a tough question, because ultimately one’s speaker choice suits one’s musical taste. Or that’s the goal.

Having gone from Focal to Rockport - and having heard lots of Magico and Wilson’s - I would categorize them as various levels of “precision” or “accurate” sound, as opposed to a less “forward” sound with Tannoys. Sonus Faber and Harbeth. These are my general observations. I would if others would agree or not.

 

[dgale]

These are interesting areas to experiment with vertical vs. horizontal bi-amping, not least in conjunction with hybrid or identical amp pairings. Vertical config. naturally necessitates identical amps in the frequency range they've been designated to handle per channel, but using the same, identical amps in a horizontal config. as well can bring out some illuminating findings when comparing the two scenarios, even though many feel more inclined to go with hybrid solutions in a horizontal config. - as you've done yourself.

My speaker context is a purely active configuration through and through (outboard, 3-way) - that is, for both subs and main speakers - so I need separate amps to handle each driver section/way anyway. Initially I used three different amps to cover each driver section that were both power and "quality"/type differentiated (one class A for the MF/HF section, and two class D variants for the mid basses and subs respectively), but after some experimentation I wound up using essentially three similar amps top to bottom (class A/B). Doing that made for a noticeably more coherent and of-a-piece sounding outcome, worthwhile even - surprisingly - when extending the use of a similar amp into the subs region (<85Hz). More on that later.

Having similar amps to cover the main speaker frequency range would seem at first "enough" or certainly of primary concern, and adding subs mostly means buying a bundled, active solution with its own build-in and typically class D designed amp plus DSP, that is then in the need to be integrated with the (typically passive) main speakers with their own amp(s). Being however that my approach is an outboard active one, I can and must choose my own amps, and this offers some interesting findings and not least freedom into the choice of amps and what they mean across the range.

Some may scoff at the ultimate importance of the type of amp used for sub duties (say, below ~100Hz), and much fewer of them will ever get to actually experiment with it hands-on to test their preconceptions. I can say however that it matters more than I thought, and that not least using the same amp (or certainly overall topology and design) over the subs is vital in bringing about that particular sense of coherency and wholeness of presentation. Active config. only adds to that advantage, top to bottom.

Finding the proper, and essentially similar amps to cover all frequency ranges may at first seem daunting; isn't excess wattage for the top end a waste, are quality wattages wasted down low, and wouldn't amps with simply a higher damping factor and more power be the better choice here? Assuming an amp with a good power supply, plenty of power reserve and an overall sound, balanced approach in its sonic presentation, it is to my mind (and specific setup context) much more important to have a similarity of "signature" top to bottom than a "tailor made" and differentiated amp approach for each driver section. What is most striking perhaps, and what most seem to be missing out on, is the importance of the subs amp (if subs are used) for the entire presentation.

Great, and a testament to the potential of active configuration when bypassing the passive crossover.

What's interesting to me here is the use (with the Tannoy's) of a single point source per channel, and that this aspect may be essential to your preference. Are the Tannoy's "simpler" to listen to, or easier in a sense vs. the other speakers you're referring to?

Short answer - Yes, to my ears. And that is my preference for now. But it has evolved.

 

[Hilroy48]

My journey has been an interesting one, I have built 2 systems at the same time in 2 completely different environments. This has taught me a lot about room materials and size and dynamics. The main floor listening room was the easiest of the 2, the room is 13x21 with an 8 foot ceiling, Large triple pane picture window with hardwood floor. Echo city, yet it is easier to calm a room down than to liven one up. So I sold off all of my old gear, bought myself a Sugden SPA-4 power amp and LA-4 pre amp. An Aqua La Voce S3 DAC, and Audiolab 6000CDT. Speakers were Dynaudio Contour 20i bookshelf. I was completely in AWE of that system, I started to tweak, buy better cables etc.

I then learned about room treatments, and it all came together. A few years go buy, And I upgrade to my dealers demo Confidence 20 speakers. Only change was the speaker, and it was like I was in a totally different room, just from a speaker change. Same manufacturer, just up the chain a bit. So I move up to a pair of Sugden MPA-4 mono blocks, same LA-4 preamp. Now that has taken the room to an entirely new level of performance. At this point All cables are changed to Wireworld silver eclipse 8, a Designated 20 amp CTT is wired in as well, as a Saturn 103C power conditioner. All the white and ambient noise I was hearing in the past is completely gone. The Confidence speakers are so revealing it is crazy.
A year goes by and the dealer now wants his Confidence 20 speakers back and offers me his demo Confidence 30 speakers. I say yes please. That speaker change alone has sealed the deal for me now. I am done. Going from a fantastic 2 way bookshelf speaker up to the 3 way floor stander was like going from a lounge to a concert hall. At this point now, I have all the supporting gear, cables and room treatment to actually be able to utilize this speaker.

After a 4 hour speaker setup, we nailed the location. I can honestly say that the speakers disappear into the wall, and you can isolate and pinpoint each instrument and singer on a very large soundstage. All I may ever need to buy down the road will be a new Listening chair.

 

[Hilroy48]

The basement system was a complete headache the room is where frequencies go to die. I removed 80% of the drop in ceiling tiles and replaced them with reflective tiles, that made a big improvement. The amp is a Sugden IA-4 integrated amp, I am in love with Sugden class A sound. I tried every single Dynaudio speaker I have owned in the basement, and they just don't sound right to me. The Special 40 was the only one I could tolerate. I went out on a limb and bought a set of Capriccio Continuo Ad monitor 311 speakers, and they were simply fantastic. The articulation and sharp enunciation of the singer came through, at the same time these speakers have a unique quirk, they like to be toed in, and that created a strange soundstage. There is no triangle where I sit, this system is for when I am working on my model railroad layout. I have wall diffusers as well as some extra absorption. The result is there are no bad listening spots because of the severe toe it. It all just works?

 

[MRubey]

I love my speakers. The only thing I would ask of them that they cannot provide is scale.
Scale for full symphonic orchestra and scale for a rock band. Small scale acoustic sounds live. My system is in most ways the opposite of my friends systems. Single driver low power purist approach. My friends all have multiple driver speaker - high power. They tend to find fault with their own systems and ask me for advice. My advice is that unless you want to admit that you married the wrong woman, find the virtue in what you have. I know these systems well enough to say that they each have wonderful virtues. Perfect?
As I see it there are two ways to understand perfect.
There is the concept of perfect which is the ever elusive unattainable ideal.
And then there is this…….I draw a round figure on paper. Is it a perfect circle? Hardly. What is it then? It is a perfect whatever it is. And that is way things are and how I chose to approach life.
But then there is the scale of ZZ Top live.
The older I get, the deeper my love for my wife gets and my eye doesn’t even want to wander. It’s all the same thing.

 

[bonzo75]

I love my speakers. The only thing I would ask of them that they cannot provide is scale.
Scale for full symphonic orchestra and scale for a rock band. Small scale acoustic sounds live. My system is in most ways the opposite of my friends systems. Single driver low power purist approach. My friends all have multiple driver speaker - high power. They tend to find fault with their own systems and ask me for advice. My advice is that unless you want to admit that you married the wrong woman, find the virtue in what you have. I know these systems well enough to say that they each have wonderful virtues. Perfect?
As I see it there are two ways to understand perfect.
There is the concept of perfect which is the ever elusive unattainable ideal.
And then there is this…….I draw a round figure on paper. Is it a perfect circle? Hardly. What is it then? It is a perfect whatever it is. And that is way things are and how I chose to approach life.
But then there is the scale of ZZ Top live.
The older I get, the deeper my love for my wife gets and my eye doesn’t even want to wander. It’s all the same thing.

it has nothing to do with single driver Vs multi driver. I have heard 3 cube nenuphar systems, one with first watt, then with all Aries cerat, and one with Line magnetic 45 watts. Issue is the speaker.

here is a single driver playing full symphonic

The single driver Yamamura (granted, the size and speakers are unique and not therefore representative) and the single driver vyger pnoe Thomas Mayer system are still the best systems I have heard play full orchestra along with dual FLHs which have been anywhere from 2 to 4 way.

the below one these were sounding great despite the fact that it has a long way to go in set up

 

[MRubey]

it has nothing to do with single driver Vs multi driver. I have heard 3 cube nenuphar systems, one with first watt, then with all Aries cerat, and one with Line magnetic 45 watts. Issue is the speaker.

here is a single driver playing full symphonic

The single driver Yamamura (granted, the size and speakers are unique and not therefore representative) and the single driver vyger pnoe Thomas Mayer system are still the best systems I have heard play full orchestra along with dual FLHs which have been anywhere from 2 to 4 way.

the below one these were sounding great despite the fact that it has a long way to go in set up

I’m just talking about my experience with my friends. And then how I feel about my pair of Nenuphar. The Pnoe horns are not a choice for me. However great they may be, they fail WAF.

 

[bonzo75]

I’m just talking about my experience with my friends. And then how I feel about my pair of Nenuphar. The Pnoe horns are not a choice for me. However great they may be, they fail WAF.

i think they are great for WAF and Bill’s wife likes their looks. They are light so can be taken back when wife is on the room and pulled forward for serious listening easily. I have also heard them in corners. Only thing is maybe wall paint etc needs to be adjusted to suit their white colour which it does in Bill’s room maybe not in the below one

for me the price is the issue, it requires a minimum of AER BD4 to get it singing, and the vyger red sparrow, Mayer electronics etc. it can sound awful till it sounds great and is the most sensitive I have heard to imperfect set up and bad recordings

 

[Audiohertz2]

i think they are great for WAF and Bill’s wife likes their looks. They are light so can be taken back when wife is on the room and pulled forward for serious listening easily. I have also heard them in corners. Only thing is maybe wall paint etc needs to be adjusted to suit their white colour which it does in Bill’s room maybe not in the below one

for me the price is the issue, it requires a minimum of AER BD4 to get it singing, and the vyger red sparrow, Mayer electronics etc. it can sound awful till it sounds great and is the most sensitive I have heard to imperfect set up and bad recordings View attachment 124250

What ..! Your wife like those? mine hate the look of horns , any and all ...





Regards

 

[Len44]

I love my speakers. The only thing I would ask of them that they cannot provide is scale.
Scale for full symphonic orchestra and scale for a rock band. Small scale acoustic sounds live. My system is in most ways the opposite of my friends systems. Single driver low power purist approach. My friends all have multiple driver speaker - high power. They tend to find fault with their own systems and ask me for advice. My advice is that unless you want to admit that you married the wrong woman, find the virtue in what you have. I know these systems well enough to say that they each have wonderful virtues. Perfect?
As I see it there are two ways to understand perfect.
There is the concept of perfect which is the ever elusive unattainable ideal.
And then there is this…….I draw a round figure on paper. Is it a perfect circle? Hardly. What is it then? It is a perfect whatever it is. And that is way things are and how I chose to approach life.
But then there is the scale of ZZ Top live.
The older I get, the deeper my love for my wife gets and my eye doesn’t even want to wander. It’s all the same thing.

Appreciate your insightful analysis. Also like your summation.