It’s All a Preference

[mep]

If you're a fan of Harman's work, as I am, you know they design all their speaker lines with the same frequency response objectives -- flat and even.

I’m a little surprised that you claim to be a “fan” of Harman’s work with regards to their speakers as they don’t build active speakers which you adore. You have spent lots of bandwidth trying to convince people of the superiority of active speakers and how passive crossovers are evil. So how can speakers with passive crossovers measure good and sound good when you have convinced yourself (and tried to convince others) that only active speakers are the way to go?

Perhaps a tad flatter, though the Infinitys are very good. I expect they are a bit too good, and the business people looking at the performance the engineers have achieved are reluctant to give you enough detail to conclude that you don't really need to pop for the much more expensive Revels. Given good, appropriate amplification, the Infinitys should be very, very good.

The Infinity P362 which was touted as a world-beater in the Harman tests has been superseded by the P363. The retail price has jumped from $250 each to $329 each. However, if you do some searches on the internet where people comment on the sound quality of the P363 and the price they paid, you will see that Fry who is one of the big distributors for Infinity has sold them as cheap as $199 for the pair which should be less than dealer cost. Dealer cost should have been $329 for the pair. So either Fry sold these speakers at a loss (which I doubt), or Harman sells them to dealers at less than half the retail price. If you believe in the laws of supply and demand, you have to believe the demand isn’t too high.

Do you really think that a pair of Infinity speakers that has $50-$75 in parts per speaker including the cabinets is going to have the same dynamics, bass, quality of treble, and soundstage that the much more expensive Revel speakers have?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well, it's both audible under certain conditions as well as measurable. How do you know you can't hear it if you haven't listened both ways (with the noises eliminated and without)? For someone who posts so authoritatively you are remarkably unsophisticated and unknowledgable about audio.

Because I can A/B the silent background of the system, the the system turned off. Not terribly sophisticated, but it effectively eliminates the noises.


Tim

 

[amirm]

I’m a little surprised that you claim to be a “fan” of Harman’s work with regards to their speakers as they don’t build active speakers which you adore.

Of course they do. That is what we have in our theater in the JBL Synthesis line. It is a discrete solution with speakers, amp and processor all separates but it mostly definitely is active. Harman would build a lot more active speakers if audiophiles weren't so tied to experimenting with amps and there was not such resistance to the idea.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

So many strawmen, so little time....

I'm a little surprised that you claim to be a “fan” of Harman’s work with regards to their speakers as they don’t build active speakers which you adore. You have spent lots of bandwidth trying to convince people of the superiority of active speakers and how passive crossovers are evil. So how can speakers with passive crossovers measure good and sound good when you have convinced yourself (and tried to convince others) that only active speakers are the way to go?

A) Harman makes active speakers; JBL monitors B) Sean Olive has stated, on this board, that he wishes there was a viable market for active consumer speakers because he believes in their advantages C) Yes I believe, as, evidently, Olive does, that the Infinitys or even the Revels would be even better if they were well-designed and implemented as actives. That doesn't mean they suck as they are.

The Infinity P362 which was touted as a world-beater in the Harman tests has been superseded by the P363. The retail price has jumped from $250 each to $329 each. However, if you do some searches on the internet where people comment on the sound quality of the P363 and the price they paid, you will see that Fry who is one of the big distributors for Infinity has sold them as cheap as $199 for the pair which should be less than dealer cost. Dealer cost should have been $329 for the pair. So either Fry sold these speakers at a loss (which I doubt), or Harman sells them to dealers at less than half the retail price. If you believe in the laws of supply and demand, you have to believe the demand isn’t too high.

I'm a big fan of American roots music: Rock, blues, jazz, folk, real country, and particularly the place where the styles blend and morph into something really interesting that we call Americana. There's a guy who has been working that space for 20 years, an incredible talent named Buddy Miller. Every heard of him? I didn't think so. He makes Alan Jackson sound like Milli Vanilli.

Public demand and quality are not necessarily related...

Do you really think that a pair of Infinity speakers that has $50-$75 in parts per speaker including the cabinets is going to have the same dynamics, bass, quality of treble, and soundstage that the much more expensive Revel speakers have?

What I believe is that they are going to have better on and off-axix frequency response than many speakers at many times their cost and that if there is something else terribly deficient in them, it didn't prevent a whole lot of people in blind listening tests from ranking them above B&Ws and Martin Logans.

Tim

 

[rbbert]

Because I can A/B the silent background of the system, the the system turned off. Not terribly sophisticated, but it effectively eliminates the noises.


Tim

But the question is, how does the noise affect the music, not necessarily how quiet is the background when nothing is playing.

It may be analogous to the black level in a television (or it may not, but perhaps that is an explanation you can understand?)

 

[NorthStar]

Tim, I know Buddy Miller quite well. ...And his sister, Julie. ...And Neil Young too. :b
...And a few more in that similar range, vein ...

 

[mep]

Tim-I know that Harman makes active computer speakers and I forgot about the JBL monitors designed for primarily home recording studios. I was referring to Harman not making floor standing active speakers designed to compete with high-end passive floor standing speakers. The bottom line is that outside of computer speakers and small monitors, passive speakers rule the high-end landscape.

People vote with their wallets when they buy audio gear. I'm still at a grand total of 1 person on this forum who owns a pair of speakers made by Harman. Do the math and tell me what that percentage is. I still believe in supply and demand and how that affects prices in the marketplace.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

But the question is, how does the noise affect the music, not necessarily how quiet is the background when nothing is playing.

It may be analogous to the black level in a television (or it may not, but perhaps that is an explanation you can understand?)

I don't think that is the question. Assuming the noise is inaudible -- it both measures below audible levels and cannot be heard by humans with perfectly good hearing abilities -- then that is the baseline. That is the demonstrated reality with nothing to prove. The question, then, is how can inaudible noise affect the music?

Can invisible spiders affect your vision? They can if the guy selling spider repellant creates enough doubt and gets you to rubbing your eyes.

Tim

 

[MylesBAstor]

Tim-I know that Harman makes active computer speakers and I forgot about the JBL monitors designed for primarily home recording studios. I was referring to Harman not making floor standing active speakers designed to compete with high-end passive floor standing speakers. The bottom line is that outside of computer speakers and small monitors, passive speakers rule the high-end landscape.

People vote with their wallets when they buy audio gear. I'm still at a grand total of 1 person on this forum who owns a pair of speakers made by Harman. Do the math and tell me what that percentage is. I still believe in supply and demand and how that affects prices in the marketplace.

That's usually known in industry parlance as a product in search of a market.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim-I know that Harman makes active computer speakers and I forgot about the JBL monitors designed for primarily home recording studios.

There's your first mistake. JBLs are among the world's most respected professional studio monitors.

I was referring to Harman not making floor standing active speakers designed to compete with high-end passive floor standing speakers. The bottom line is that outside of computer speakers and small monitors, passive speakers rule the high-end landscape.

We're back to our old, mind-boggling disagreement, Mark. You're equating "big" with physical size. That illusion could be shattered with the right "small monitors" (they actually wouldn't be very small, but they'd have that "bookshelf" look that gets your expectations juiced) and a sub or two in your own room, but we both know that's never going to happen. But you are certainly right that passive speakers rule the high-end landscape.

People vote with their wallets when they buy audio gear.

People vote with their wallets in many things. What was the point?

Tim

 

[Robh3606]

I was referring to Harman not making floor standing active speakers designed to compete with high-end passive floor standing speakers. The bottom line is that outside of computer speakers and small monitors, passive speakers rule the high-end landscape.

Hello Mep

There is no market for it. Most of JBL's best speakers are not even for sale in the US. They target the Asian Market and many of the 80', 90, and later TOTL speakers were exclusive to that market. JBL does quite well in Japan on both the modern speakers and also the vintage 70's monitors where there overbuilt drivers and craftmanship are greatly admired and respected. There main market is not the US.

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/jbl/hifi/

Most of the systems on that page are not available in the US

The K2 and Everest can be biamped right out of the box. That's about as close as you can get. They will even provide you with the voltage drives so you can configure an active crossover to get the job done.



Rob

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hello Mep

There is no market for it. Most of JBL's best speakers are not even for sale in the US. They target the Asian Market and many of the 80', 90, and later TOTL speakers were exclusive to that market. JBL does quite well in Japan on both the modern speakers and also the vintage 70's monitors where there overbuilt drivers and craftmanship are greatly admired and respected. There main market is not the US.

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/jbl/hifi/

Most of the systems on that page are not available in the US

The K2 and Everest can be biamped right out of the box. That's about as close as you can get. They will even provide you with the voltage drives so you can configure an active crossover to get the job done.



Rob

I totally agree! Many years ago at CES, heard a WAVAC amp (and this was the first time hearing amp and speakers) driving a pair of JBLs made only for the domestic Japanese market. The sound was stunning and my jaw hit the floor. You never heard a midrange and body like that!

 

[rbbert]

I don't think that is the question. Assuming the noise is inaudible -- it both measures below audible levels and cannot be heard by humans with perfectly good hearing abilities -- then that is the baseline. That is the demonstrated reality with nothing to prove. The question, then, is how can inaudible noise affect the music?...
Tim

Well, that's the point; it's not really inaudible. Its volume is low enough that music will usually mask it, but it's not inaudible if the system volume is loud enough.

If you like Americana, check out Railroad Earth. Their last two studio albums are pretty good, but their live stuff from livedownloads.com is even better, and most of it is very well recorded, with a good frequency balance and minimal compression with NO brickwall peak-limiting.

 

[JackD201]

My point is any distortion becomes part of the signal as it is now part of the voltage swings. It therefor becomes part of the whole and affects the whole. You guys rarely see me post an absolute but in this case I'm doing just that. The question is how much they affect the whole not if they do or don't. They do.

 

[Soundproof]

The JBL 4365 monitors from the K2 range are high on my list of possible speakers for the new listening room. Wonderful sound from them. This summer I'm going to spend some time listening to several top speakers in their range, having already spent a lot of time in front of the Everest speakers.

 

[jkeny]

My point is any distortion becomes part of the signal as it is now part of the voltage swings. It therefor becomes part of the whole and affects the whole. You guys rarely see me post an absolute but in this case I'm doing just that. The question is how much they affect the whole not if they do or don't. They do.

Yes, exactly! There seems to be some confusion about what is CONSCIOUSLY heard & registered as opposed to what is embedded in the music & can effect us even though we aren't conscious of it. This is the sort of distortion that gives rise to digititis & that uneasy feeling with a lot of digital. You often are not aware of it "consciously" until it is taken away!

 

[Soundproof]

It is the kind of distortion that can make us fail to distinguish between affect and effect, for example.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Yes, exactly! There seems to be some confusion about what is CONSCIOUSLY heard & registered as opposed to what is embedded in the music & can effect us even though we aren't conscious of it. This is the sort of distortion that gives rise to digititis & that uneasy feeling with a lot of digital. You often are not aware of it "consciously" until it is taken away!

Or how and why the brain coverts conscious to unconscious not everything is committed to memory.

 

[jkeny]

This seems to be at the heart of a lot of people's jaundiced view of vinyl - it's SNR, it's snap,crackle,pop artifacts, etc. In digital we may be trading these artefacts & limitations for other distortions which are less obvious at the conscious level but more intrusive!

This maybe at the heart of the matter with a lot of discussions/arguments that arise - a lack of understanding (on all sides) about the pyschoacoustic nature of what we are involved in as a hobby. A lot of people treat the ear as a microphone which just relays signal to the brain but we can see from research that there is a feedback mechanism that alters the SNR & other aspects of what we hear in real-time i.e it's not just the brain that is operating as a filter but the ear itself.

The resolution to the obj Vs Subj debate may be that yes we have nearly all the measurements that we need but we don't have the correct psychoacoustic model to map these measurements to & give them relevance? Perhaps we are emphasising some measurements & not even performing some others which having a full psychoacoustic model would reveal?

I tried to point to some of this with my sample test files for pre-echo. It would appear that pre-echo is much more acoustically noticeable than post-echo & yet it seems to be ignored. So linear phase filters which give rise to pre-echo continue to be used because to use minimum phase filters we would get a variation in delay of the frequencies. Again, it points to an over-emphasis on frequency accuracy at the expense of timing accuracy. This is just one aspect that an understanding of the psychoacoustic model may well correct.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

If, with no music playing, I have to turn my system up way past any normal playing level to hear this noise, again, with nothing to mask it, it is practially inaudible. And by practically, just to be clear, I mean it can't be heard by good human ears at any playback level that good human ears could tolerate. Inaudible in its intended use. So the question remains, how does this inaudible noise affect the quality of my playback and what is its effect?

Let's make it something other than that great Audiophile boogeyman, noise, for a moment. That should put some of the wild speculation, which is all we have here, in perspective: So it's not noise, it's a violin, out of tune and off key, recorded so low that it is inaudible, even with the amp turned up to levels that will fry voice coils in just moments. You guys are basically saying that this inaudible violin would degrage the musical performance.

How?

Tim