It’s All a Preference

[MylesBAstor]

Hey Myles:

There is no technical reason why a digital recording would sound better pressed to vinyl.

That, in my opinion, is in the eye of the beholder. It is one generation further removed from the master.

It is an interesting topic!

Actually is it when you think about the manufacturing of a CD, esp. a while ago when serious jitter issues were happening at the production facilities. Why would the same digital master sent to two different manufacturing facilities (US and Canada) sound different as in the Holly Cole release?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Have any non-Harman manufactured speakers ever bested the Harman designs at Harman or do the Harman brands win every time?

I don't know, but I can't imagine that is the case. People would be screaming fraud on every audiophile discussion board on the net. I would bet, however, that as they have taken what they've learned in these tests and applied it to new designs in their lines, HK brands' numbers went up. I'll bet they're pretty rarely beat at this point. I mean who else is doing this besides Harman. Oh, yeah, the Canadians. Some awfully good stuff up there "for the money," but it's really not in a league with ML, B&W, Wilson....sniff....

Tim

 

[flez007]

Fernando-I didn’t mean to imply that you make a decision on whether you like a mastering engineer based on the results of one recording. Most of the greats have a long and distinguished list of recording credits and over time, you have come to either like their methods and results or you don’t. RVG is a case in point. Many people love his recordings and some people don’t. But one thing for sure, you pretty much know what you are going to get with a RVG recording. If I a buy a recording and I see “mastered by Doug Sax” or "mastered by Bob Ludwig,” I feel pretty confident that I’m going to hear a decent recording.

We are on the same page mep.

 

[flez007]

Especially if the speakers have nice curves

Infant terrible!

 

[mep]

I don't know, but I can't imagine that is the case. People would be screaming fraud on every audiophile discussion board on the net. I would bet, however, that as they have taken what they've learned in these tests and applied it to new designs in their lines, HK brands' numbers went up. I'll bet they're pretty rarely beat at this point. I mean who else is doing this besides Harman. Oh, yeah, the Canadians. Some awfully good stuff up there "for the money," but it's really not in a league with ML, B&W, Wilson....sniff....

Tim

Tim-I'm asking the qustion because I have no idea of what the outcomes of their testing are and if they always win out over their competition. I have never owned a B&W speaker or a Wilson speaker so I have no dog in those fights. I did own a pair of the original ML Aerius speakers and enjoyed them for many years as long as I had subs to play with them because they had no real bass.

 

[Robh3606]

Pictures don't lie Rob. No self effacing audiophile would listen to ML like Harman had them set up.

Hello Miles

Can you please explain what the differences were compared to your own set-up?? Yours looks typical to me and not unlike what you would get in their testing room.

Rob

 

[Gregadd]

Well, as I said, I was in that boat. I had never heard Martin Logans to sound bad. But boy, did they sound so bad behind a curtain. So speaking for myself, I know for sure I was performing distorted evaluations.

Most of the MartinLogan setups I heard were borderline unlistenable.

 

[microstrip]

I have herd MartinLogan setups sounding unlistenable and I have heard them sounding magnificent. Most of us, I think, could write the same sentence with almost every speaker we have experience with.

One speaker that is a good example of this is the Quad Esl63 - properly setup in an appropriate room it is wonderful, but can also sound miserable with the wrong setup. And yes, I have found that they almost always sound horrible at shows, but some of the best sound I ever heard from a Quad was in show in London - a room setup by Peter Walker where we could only listen to opera and classical music.

 

[Andre Marc]

Actually is it when you think about the manufacturing of a CD, esp. a while ago when serious jitter issues were happening at the production facilities. Why would the same digital master sent to two different manufacturing facilities (US and Canada) sound different as in the Holly Cole release?

Gee, I have never experienced this. BTW, did you see Barry Diament's post about how the difference between different sounding optical discs disappeared when ripped to a server?

 

[MylesBAstor]

Gee, I have never experienced this. BTW, did you see Barry Diament's post about how the difference between different sounding optical discs disappeared when ripped to a server?

No but heard in one demo that Alan Kafton did where he ripped off a 15 ips tape to either the hard drive or a CD. The CD was really bad compared to the hard drive.

 

[amirm]

Have any non-Harman manufactured speakers ever bested the Harman designs at Harman or do the Harman brands win every time?

In the casual versions of the test that I have attended with a group of others, there is usually a person who votes for a non-Harman speaker. BTW, Harman folks are not at all bothered by that outcome.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Let me ask this question. The panel is "trained" to listen to the selection for several parameters. Do they vote in the end on which speaker most closely approximates the checklist or the one that actually sounds like music?

 

[audioguy]

Let me ask this question. The panel is "trained" to listen to the selection for several parameters. Do they vote in the end on which speaker most closely approximates the checklist or the one that actually sounds like music?

One would hope there is a strong correlation.

 

[Ronm1]

^ If musicality is on the checklist, then yes, if not then its jury nullification.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Let me ask this question. The panel is "trained" to listen to the selection for several parameters. Do they vote in the end on which speaker most closely approximates the checklist or the one that actually sounds like music?

They're listening to music, Myles, and judging which speaker sounds best. This rattles the very foundations of the notion that there are no dumb questions.

Tim

 

[MylesBAstor]

One would hope there is a strong correlation.

But it's not. How often is the whole greater than the sum of the parts?

 

[terryj]

Let me ask this question. The panel is "trained" to listen to the selection for several parameters. Do they vote in the end on which speaker most closely approximates the checklist or the one that actually sounds like music?

Hmm, but no answer to my question to you earlier

Originally Posted by MylesBAstor View Post
N DBT doesn't do anything for me.

Would yoiu have ANY curiosity to sit thru a harmon demonstration?

seems the answer is no. But can't help pick from the sidelines.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

^ If musicality is on the checklist, then yes, if not then its jury nullification.

You forgot the smiley.

 

[amirm]

Let me ask this question. The panel is "trained" to listen to the selection for several parameters. Do they vote in the end on which speaker most closely approximates the checklist or the one that actually sounds like music?

Let me first quote you the section from one of Sean Olive's AES Paper: Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study

"In each listening test, listeners were required to rate
each loudspeaker on the interval preference scale defined
in the listener instructions (see Appendix 2). The scale
consists of 11 points ranging from 0 to 10, where the magnitude
of the rating indicates the degree to which the listener
likes or dislikes the sound quality of a loudspeaker.
The distance between two loudspeaker ratings represents
the magnitude of preference: separations of 2 or more
points indicate a strong preference for the higher rated
loudspeaker; 1 point difference, a moderate preference;
and a 0.5 point difference represents a slight preference."

As I mentioned, I have taken this test a couple of times. Musical selections are played and you are free to score them how you like. In my case when I listened to James Taylor track, I would try to see which one sounded more natural and pleasurable to me. It was an interesting departure from situations where you have a reference that says what the "truth" is. In absence of that, you really are put in the hot seat to decide ultimately what good music sounds like. In my case, when I heard the ML, it sounded strange, flat, and non-musical. The JBL sounded warm and likable. So I scored the ML down. In comparison, it just didn't sound right to me. This was shocking to me after the fact because I always thought these large panels playing music were more "musical."

 

[steve williams]

Amir there you go using that term "musical" again. The natives will get restless.