It gets better over time

[Lee]

Having heard some lectures at Oxford University about how our endocrine systems and nervous system change depending on the time of day and our exposure to natural light, I refuse to believe any differences in my perception in recorded sound that are more than about 10 seconds apart. Days apart? - I'm more likely to believe in leprechauns and elves.

Burn-in is not something I've read much about in the UK because it seems to be considered to a large extent audiophoolery. Some engineers appreciate that some capacitors out of the box need a few minutes or perhaps an hour or so to stabilise, and if you are concerned about burn-in, just leave a new component running overnight before listening to it.

Over any long period it's purely psychoacoustic. If a manufacturer or retailer says something will take 100+ or 200+ hours to burn in, I'd just move on to something else. If it takes that long it's not fit for purpose or more likely it's a pre-emptive excuse if you're not impressed by the product.

Rubbish. Burn-in definitely exists. And it’s definitely in the hundreds of hours for teflon caps.

 

[Kingrex]

I take it that you have not heard a QSA fuse, the Muon Pro or a Takshaka cable then? I am not disagreeing with you but am trying to point out that these are but a few examples of products I personally have in my system that had quite the change after installation.

The change from initial install to 2 weeks and even a month later is undeniable and, quite simply, eye opening as to the sonic changes that happen.

In a perfect world (IMO/IME)? It would be great if we didn't have to experience this BS. But, it is what it is. The end result is worth waiting for in some instances.

Tom

Is it? Do you have one to burn in and a second to compare to. If you had 2 and burned in 1, then swapped in a fresh one that had say 2 hours on it, what would you hear. I bet you would fail a blind test. Maybe not. But I believe it would rattle your perception.

 

[ADGold]

I purchased my current amplifier many many years ago on the used market without auditioning. I was convinced that I made a terrible mistake as it seemed lifeless across all musical genres. However, I didn't take any listening breaks and was still playing my system a couple hours per day minimum despite the disappointing sound. I can't recall the specific timing but after approximately two weeks, there was a very vivid transformation and the amplifier was significantly more engaging and dynamic. The amp was already 'broken-in' with the original owner, but it seems that have gone through a settling-in period on my system prior to revealing its full potential.

 

[treitz3]

@ Kingrex - If you want to believe that this would be the case? I won't argue. But failing a blind test when it comes to this? Not a chance in hell.

It is blatantly obvious and no one (even a half deaf person) wouldn't have to strain to hear the differences at 2 hours in.

Tom

 

[sbnx]

For those that require proof beyond what their ears tell them. Not exactly capacitors but the same idea.

Driver Burn-in facts | GR-Research

gr-research.com

Burn-In Myths | GR-Research

gr-research.com

 

[Kingrex]

The QSA fuse seller is 10 minutes from my home and I'm a prior customer (not of fuses). I offered one of them come along for a blind test, I was as much interested in if they could tell a difference, given they said it was so obvious. I wanted to test by swapping the two 2A fuses in my streamer and DAC. They wanted me to swap the fuses in my amplifier and mains plugs. That wasn't going to happen because replacing the 8A fuse on my amplifier would invalidate the Gryphon warranty and their 13A fuses appear to be illegal fakes.

Why would I want to use an ethernet filter when I have fibre optic cabling? Ethernet filters were invented by EMO Systems in Germany and I have one of their products, but it made no noticeable difference. I have to use a media converter because Innuos still have not discovered SFP ports, but my TP Link converter is powered by a 9v battery isolated from the mains.

Takshaka? Enlighten me.

p.s. the possibility that QSA are using fake Bussman fuses is not unexpected. There are loads of fake 13A fuses because we use billions of them in the UK and all Chinese and other overseas manufacturers have to ship products to the UK with one fitted. Most of the ones sold on eBay look like Chinese fakes. So it is likely that the ones sourced in Hong Kong by QSA are Chinese fakes. It tells you something about the Chinese that they will make a fake of a 30c product if they can do it for 5c and make a 25c profit. You just have to make enough of them.
View attachment 141891View attachment 141893

The fake one looks better built. But is it fake. What does fake mean. I buy car parts that are called OEM. They're built to the standards and spec. As long as you're building to the standard and spac, I don't.I think you need to get, a UL certification. You just need to have a facility that is recognized as building to that standard and spec. That's what Benjamin Electric is. They stamp, fold and mil metal, turning it into an electrical panel. They are making their own custom panel. But they are making them to a specific standard and specification. And as a company they are recognized by a testing agency, I was being qualified to do that.
There is no reason somebody couldn't do the same with a fuse. It doesn't have to be QSA. It could be any third party, and QSA could buy from them.

 

[Kingrex]

For those that require proof beyond what their ears tell them. Not exactly capacitors but the same idea.

Driver Burn-in facts | GR-Research

gr-research.com

Burn-In Myths | GR-Research

gr-research.com

A woofer is so radically different. We're not talking a piece of metal that a small current is passed through. You're talking a mechanical device that actually wears in over time.

 

[sbnx]

A woofer is so radically different. We're not talking a piece of metal that a small current is passed through. You're talking a mechanical device that actually wears in over time.

Okay, that just means you are a few steps farther down the path than a lot of people. There are many who deny speaker burn-in is a thing. What about cable burn-in? Do you think that cables change in sound quality over the first 100-200 hours?

 

[treitz3]

Absolutely and without question!

Tom

 

[Kingrex]

Okay, that just means you are a few steps farther down the path than a lot of people. There are many who deny speaker burn-in is a thing. What about cable burn-in? Do you think that cables change in sound quality over the first 100-200 hours?

Conjecture brings no validation.

The only way to truly know would be two have two of the exact same cable. Burn one in for a couple hundred hours. Burn the other in for a day. Then swap cables and see if you can tell the difference. I think there is a high probability you won't be able to tell them apart. And then excuses will fly, such as you disturbed the one that had burned in for 200 to.400 hundred hours, and that's the whole reason it sounds the same now.

I used to read the QSA thread. I never saw anyone burn a fuse in, then compare it to a fresh fuse they had let run for a day. Never. Same for cables. Never.

I know for certain my stereo can sound radically different day to day. And I am not touching anything. Until somebody does a true comparative test of a cable or a fuse where they have two of the exact same item with one burned in and one not, it's just conjectured. It's not a hard thing to do at all. But no one seems to want to be bothered to try it.

 

[PYP]

Okay, that just means you are a few steps farther down the path than a lot of people. There are many who deny speaker burn-in is a thing. What about cable burn-in? Do you think that cables change in sound quality over the first 100-200 hours?

many years ago, when I was a junior bird dog, an understanding audio dealer asked me to try a Kubala-Sosna power cable when I expressed skepticism that a power cord could make any difference. Just try and return. OK. I hooked it up to my then amplifier and just played music. Nothing. What a bunch of bull. About 2 hours later, as I was listening to a very familiar piece of music, suddenly the album was transformed. There was so much more music there. I was flabbergasted. [NOTE: That particular power cord was said to be 90% broken in at 2 hours and then fully after 24 hours.] I still have that cable. What a slippery slope...

 

[PYP]

Conjecture brings no validation.

The only way to truly know would be two have two of the exact same cable. Burn one in for a couple hundred hours. Burn the other in for a day. Then swap cables and see if you can tell the difference. I think there is a high probability you won't be able to tell them apart. And then excuses will fly, such as you disturbed the one that had burned in for 200 to.400 hundred hours, and that's the whole reason it sounds the same now.

I used to read the QSA thread. I never saw anyone burn a fuse in, then compare it to a fresh fuse they had let run for a day. Never. Same for cables. Never.

I know for certain my stereo can sound radically different day to day. And I am not touching anything. Until somebody does a true comparative test of a cable or a fuse where they have two of the exact same item with one burned in and one not, it's just conjectured. It's not a hard thing to do at all. But no one seems to want to be bothered to try it.

I believe the first step is to power cycle the component that will use the new cable, etc. Listen again. Sound different? Probably. Depending upon the component (anything with a clock takes longer), listen again in 24 hours. Still different? Then do your experiment.

 

[wil]

Depends on how long and loud you play or if you play digital, i prefer longer listening sessions at medium levels. 5- 6 hours analog, 2-3 if i play digital.

Conjecture brings no validation.

The only way to truly know would be two have two of the exact same cable. Burn one in for a couple hundred hours. Burn the other in for a day. Then swap cables and see if you can tell the difference. I think there is a high probability you won't be able to tell them apart. And then excuses will fly, such as you disturbed the one that had burned in for 200 to.400 hundred hours, and that's the whole reason it sounds the same now.

I used to read the QSA thread. I never saw anyone burn a fuse in, then compare it to a fresh fuse they had let run for a day. Never. Same for cables. Never.

I know for certain my stereo can sound radically different day to day. And I am not touching anything. Until somebody does a true comparative test of a cable or a fuse where they have two of the exact same item with one burned in and one not, it's just conjectured. It's not a hard thing to do at all. But no one seems to want to be bothered to try it.

I do think this is one of the fundamental issues in Audiophilia (and other similar subjective interests).

My view has always been that our ever-changing mental state due to a myriad complex of influences that have nothing to do with our audio gear is largely overlooked by audiophiles. Our music experiences take place in our brains. Our ears are only a physical conduit.

This understanding was brought home to me when I heard about a music lover who lost 100 % of his hearing, yet with the “workaround” of a balloon held in his fingertips, he trained himself to experience music he was very familiar with. As I understand, the balloon allowed him to capture the vibrations in the air from the speakers and his brain/memory did the rest.

My experience is that some audio components need 100’s of hours to reach their potential. But I’m also skeptical of much in Audio and am convinced that expectation bias is a prevalent factor which some businesses are more than happy to take advantage of.

 

[PYP]

I do think this is one of the fundamental issues in Audiophilia (and other similar subjective interests).

My view has always been that our ever-changing mental state due to a myriad complex of influences that have nothing to do with our audio gear is largely overlooked by audiophiles. Our music experiences take place in our brains. Our ears are only a physical conduit.

This understanding was brought home to me when I heard about a music lover who lost 100 % of his hearing, yet with the “workaround” of a balloon held in his fingertips, he trained himself to experience music he was very familiar with. As I understand, the balloon allowed him to capture the vibrations in the air from the speakers and his brain/memory did the rest.

My experience is that some audio components need 100’s of hours to reach their potential. But I’m also skeptical of much in Audio and am convinced that expectation bias is a prevalent factor which some businesses are more than happy to take advantage of.

Agree that attitude is a huge factor that changes day-to-day if not hour-to-hour.

Also, our hardware changes: brains and ears change over time. As does one's skill as a listener.

The video of that fellow listening with a balloon is uplifting and ming-boggling.

 

[Kingrex]

I would simply love to see a test with a small group of people. Use a fuse. Burn 1 for 500 hours. Burn the other 24. Then blind test your friends. Why is that so hard?

Same for a cable. I constantly hear people say they bought a loom. That means more than 1 power cable. Its a simple test and would put a good data point to a topic.

As it stands, there is nothing to validate observational perceptions of burn in wihout a comparative analysis.

 

[sbnx]

I won't say that mental state has nothing to do with the enjoyment of music. But mental state has very little or nothing to do with what I listen for. It is objective. Let me give you an example, A little over a year ago I purchased some power cables for my system. These particular power cords have a very long burn-in cycle. I plugged them in and listened to tracks I have listened to 1000's of times. The high frequencies were very rolled off. So, I used a track to assess when the cables were good to go. The track I used is "The White Winds" by Andreas Vollenweider. About 25% of the way through this song there is a crescendo. (Listen to the song and you will know exactly where I mean). With the new cables there was no high frequency content to the crescendo. If we were talking in person I could demonstrate the difference in sound. I left the system playing 24/7. Every day I would go into the room and listen to the first couple minutes of this track. And for a long time it was the same story -- no highs. Then one day they were there and they have been there every day after that. I had no expectation that they would or would not be there when I walked into the room. Nor did I know when they would show up. My mental state on any given day made no difference. This was purely objective observation - does the crescendo sound correct or not?

 

[Kingrex]

I won't say that mental state has nothing to do with the enjoyment of music. But mental state has very little or nothing to do with what I listen for. It is objective. Let me give you an example, A little over a year ago I purchased some power cables for my system. These particular power cords have a very long burn-in cycle. I plugged them in and listened to tracks I have listened to 1000's of times. The high frequencies were very rolled off. So, I used a track to assess when the cables were good to go. The track I used is "The White Winds" by Andreas Vollenweider. About 25% of the way through this song there is a crescendo. (Listen to the song and you will know exactly where I mean). With the new cables there was no high frequency content to the crescendo. If we were talking in person I could demonstrate the difference in sound. I left the system playing 24/7. Every day I would go into the room and listen to the first couple minutes of this track. And for a long time it was the same story -- no highs. Then one day they were there and they have been there every day after that. I had no expectation that they would or would not be there when I walked into the room. Nor did I know when they would show up. My mental state on any given day made no difference. This was purely objective observation - does the crescendo sound correct or not?

I would be convinced if you said you then put the same cable in with only 24 hours time on the second cable and the highs were rolled off.

 

[sbnx]

I would be convinced if you said you then put the same cable in with only 24 hours time on the second cable and the highs were rolled off.

I doubt it

 

[PYP]

I won't say that mental state has nothing to do with the enjoyment of music. But mental state has very little or nothing to do with what I listen for. It is objective. Let me give you an example, A little over a year ago I purchased some power cables for my system. These particular power cords have a very long burn-in cycle. I plugged them in and listened to tracks I have listened to 1000's of times. The high frequencies were very rolled off. So, I used a track to assess when the cables were good to go. The track I used is "The White Winds" by Andreas Vollenweider. About 25% of the way through this song there is a crescendo. (Listen to the song and you will know exactly where I mean). With the new cables there was no high frequency content to the crescendo. If we were talking in person I could demonstrate the difference in sound. I left the system playing 24/7. Every day I would go into the room and listen to the first couple minutes of this track. And for a long time it was the same story -- no highs. Then one day they were there and they have been there every day after that. I had no expectation that they would or would not be there when I walked into the room. Nor did I know when they would show up. My mental state on any given day made no difference. This was purely objective observation - does the crescendo sound correct or not?

Agreed about the observation of that sort. But do you find that as your mental state changes, so does the ease with which you can become engaged by the music? Unlike the OP, I listen to and enjoy my setup every day. That is consistent day to day and I don't want to take a break. However, the level of engagement with the music changes according to my attitude. I'm sure folks have different remedies for getting up on the wrong side of the bed and listening to their setup. For some, it might be blasting death metal and for others it might be medium volume acoustic guitar (that would be me).

 

[Kingrex]

Agreed about the observation of that sort. But do you find that as your mental state changes, so does the ease with which you can become engaged by the music? Unlike the OP, I listen to and enjoy my setup every day. That is consistent day to day and I don't want to take a break. However, the level of engagement with the music changes according to my attitude. I'm sure folks have different remedies for getting up on the wrong side of the bed and listening to their setup. For some, it might be blasting death metal and for others it might be medium volume acoustic guitar (that would be me).

I was playing Black Sabbath last night. The Wizzard. Had it cranked up.