KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

Ummm the horn is really short, I think that's a kind of "no duh they're wider".

The question is if Keith loves Thrax why aren't they on the running list? (I think he told me, but I forget :)
 
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I would be very surprised if they were wider than most horns. You can change horn dispersion very easily by the horn itself...

Yes the horn controls the dispersion pattern over most if not all of the spectrum. The devils are in the details.

Eyeballing photos of the Thrax Lyra, that looks to me like an unusually wide-pattern horn. I think I'm seeing wide angles, maybe 120 degrees ballpark in the horizontal plane and maybe 80 degrees ballpark in the vertical. The throat is a very critical part of any horn, and in the throat I'm seeing a gentle, rounded-square-ish diffraction slot. The only way to get the highs from a 1" exit diameter compression driver to cover such a wide horizontal angle would be to use a diffraction slot. In other words, the design elements I'm seeing indicate an unusually wide-pattern constant-directivity horn.

The relatively small midwoofer diameter invites a wide-pattern horn if pattern matching in the 1.5 kHz crossover region is a priority.
 
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Here's the latest room pics, guys (I'm not afraid like many here)- I've finally finished speaker positioning leaving them 10' from the listening position and approximately 7' apart (inner corner to corner) with the speakers 22" from the front wall. I added curtains to cover the paned glass on the rear wall which had very positive effects and allowed a few inches wider spacing. I've put up some GIK art panels behind the listening position and one to the side (temporarily at least).

I really don't think a horn loudspeaker works on this long wall configuration as the integration would be super tight. Wider spacing results in a flat image with holes. I also tried the speakers a few inches into the room as well as the sofa moved in a few inches and both ways resulted in a "in the soundstage" result that sounded fake. I'm sure some 'philes like that however.

I will say I'm getting excellent sound - it took a month - but I'm there.
 

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Recalling your video of your new room (post 1693), your at-the-time intention to place speakers on the long wall where the chairs were (post 1695), and I think you said somewhere that you wanted good sound throughout the room... well, I don't really see the narrow-pattern Avantgardes accomplishing that, at least not on the long wall.

If you have since updated your speaker placement, I missed it. Where are your DeVores now? And, do they give good coverage throughout the room?

Hey Duke, thanks for your comments - I've updated the thread as a result. I'll be curious what you think.
 
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Ummm the horn is really short, I think that's a kind of "no duh they're wider".

The question is if Keith loves Thrax why aren't they on the running list? (I think he told me, but I forget :)

they are, well um, brutalist looking. especially those woofer boxes.

but maybe the Lyra monitors and a swarm of Duke's subs is the better idea :eek:
 
Hey Duke, thanks for your comments - I've updated the thread as a result. I'll be curious what you think.

Thanks for the updates! A picture is worth 1.0k words...

I like your choice. There is no longer a case to be made for uber-wide coverage, and you have more space behind the speakers, which helps soundstage depth.

Imo there are probably still some worthwhile advantages to the Thrax approach. Assuming that horn is indeed approximately constant directivity and has negligible coloration (which is apparently the case based on what you said about them), timbre and freedom from listening fatigue are likely to be very good, assuming Thrax has their other ducks in a row (which apparently they do).

The ears derive timbre not only from the first-arrival sound but also from the reflections, so we want the reflections to sound very much like the direct sound. A uniform radiation pattern does this because most of the reflected energy starts out as off-axis sound. The tonal balance we hear is essentially a weighted average of the direct and reverberant sound. At the risk of over-generalizing, the more spectrally-correct reverberant energy we have in the room, the richer the timbre. SoundLabs and MBLs and concert halls tend to do this well.

(Virtually everything in audio being a trade-off, one thing that a wide-pattern speaker like the Thrax trades off versus a narrow-pattern speaker like the Avantgarde is, dynamic contrast. Wide pattern = more energy out in the reverberant field = a higher "noise floor", and a higher noise floor= less dynamic contrast. So all else being equal [which it never is], in most rooms a wide-pattern speaker tends to convey less dynamic contrast than a narrow-pattern speaker.)

The listening fatigue thing is a bit more complicated. The ear/brain system is constantly analyzing incoming sounds to see if they are new sounds or reflections (repetitions of a recent new sound). What the ear looks at is, the spectral content. If it sounds like a reflection, then it is a reflection. But, what if it only sounds kinda-sorta like a reflection because the spectral content is skewed? In that case, the ear/brain system has to use more CPU power to correctly classify the sound as a reflection. And over time this additional CPU usage causes the processor to overheat, and the result is listening fatigue... and in extreme cases, a head-ache.

I think the Thrax system probably does an exceptionally good job with the reverberant field, and therefore should have good timbre and be enjoyable for hours on end.

Finally, when the reverberant sound has a similar spectral balance to the direct sound, the tonal balance holds up well throughout the room because you aren't so reliant on the direct sound.

Imo one way to quickly check on the reverberant field (and by extrapolation to make an educated guess about long-term listening enjoyment) is to listen from outside the room through an open doorway, with no line-of-sight to the speakers. Assuming the room isn't overdamped, this will give you a useful idea of how spectrally correct the reverberant field is. And assuming there isn't some harshness or other annoying artifact in the direct sound, a natural-sounding reverberant field bodes well for long-term fatigue-free listening. Note that a live saxophone or piano or little-girl-with-guitar would sound convincing through that open doorway.

... but maybe the Lyra monitors and a swarm of Duke's subs is the better idea :eek:

Dude. You rock.
 
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@gian60 has the Thrax Lyra too
 
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I've heard Thrax many times and I like them a lot, especially with the 3 way setup. I'd say they are a little bright and lit-up, but not in a bad way and the sound is identifiable due to this character. I think they are more lively and dynamic vs something like YG but not as neutral overall.
 
they are, well um, brutalist looking. especially those woofer boxes.

but maybe the Lyra monitors and a swarm of Duke's subs is the better idea :eek:

Woofer boxes PLUS swarm to get the response nice and even....
 
The Lyras sound more dynamic then they should. The pro tweeter surely helps.

The subwoofers with Thrax are WAY too much for most listening rooms in the way of aesthetics. That I fully understand. But the Lyras sound really nice even without them though.
 
I WISH I had made it to the Thrax room... they weren't on my radar screen at the time. Imo very intelligent configuration. Looks to me like the horn is probably pattern-matching with the two midwoofers in the crossover region, in both the horizontal and vertical planes, and it looks to me like a constant-directivity horn. And being a medium-efficiency system, it is far more compact and elegant than most hybrid horn systems.



Recalling your video of your new room (post 1693), your at-the-time intention to place speakers on the long wall where the chairs were (post 1695), and I think you said somewhere that you wanted good sound throughout the room... well, I don't really see the narrow-pattern Avantgardes accomplishing that, at least not on the long wall.

If you have since updated your speaker placement, I missed it. Where are your DeVores now? And, do they give good coverage throughout the room?

You see, I'm thinking the Thrax Lyras would have good coverage over a much wider angle than most horns, and they would also be more uniform across that wide arc than most direct radiator speakers. In other words, the Thrax system makes a lot of sense to me, assuming the goal posts are where I think they are.
It’s more of a waveguide than a horn isn’t it? I don’t think it is providing any gain just radiation pattern control...??
 
I've heard Thrax many times and I like them a lot, especially with the 3 way setup. I'd say they are a little bright and lit-up, but not in a bad way and the sound is identifiable due to this character. I think they are more lively and dynamic vs something like YG but not as neutral overall.

[potentially self-serving mini-rant] I don't know why more speakers don't have some means of tweaking the treble region a bit... something aside from playing with toe-in or changing cables or rolling tubes or adding room treatments. Chances are the tweeter is more efficient than the woofer, so there is probably padding involved... why not make that padding user-adjustable?

Classic Audio has level-adjustability for the mid horn and tweeter horn... so if you heard them and they didn't do anything for you, then maybe you didn't really hear what they can do.

DaveC's "a little bright" might be one resistor value change away from "yeah baby!" [/mini-rant]

It’s more of a waveguide than a horn isn’t it? I don’t think it is providing any gain just radiation pattern control...??

Good point. I think it would more properly be called a "waveguide" or maybe a "waveguide-style horn". I have used both terms for my speakers in the past, and occasionally still do (pattern control being their raisin d'etre), but I've been gotten lazy about it lately.

Actually "gain" usually accompanies "pattern control" because the waveguide funnels the output into a narrower angle than it would otherwise take (over at least some of the spectrum), but that's more like a side-effect. The levels get corrected in the crossover.
 
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Thanks for the updates! A picture is worth 1.0k words...

I like your choice. There is no longer a case to be made for uber-wide coverage, and you have more space behind the speakers, which helps soundstage depth.

Imo there are probably still some worthwhile advantages to the Thrax approach. Assuming that horn is indeed approximately constant directivity and has negligible coloration (which is apparently the case based on what you said about them), timbre and freedom from listening fatigue are likely to be very good, assuming Thrax has their other ducks in a row (which apparently they do).

The ears derive timbre not only from the first-arrival sound but also from the reflections, so we want the reflections to sound very much like the direct sound. A uniform radiation pattern does this because most of the reflected energy starts out as off-axis sound. The tonal balance we hear is essentially a weighted average of the direct and reverberant sound. At the risk of over-generalizing, the more spectrally-correct reverberant energy we have in the room, the richer the timbre. SoundLabs and MBLs and concert halls tend to do this well.

(Virtually everything in audio being a trade-off, one thing that a wide-pattern speaker like the Thrax trades off versus a narrow-pattern speaker like the Avantgarde is, dynamic contrast. Wide pattern = more energy out in the reverberant field = a higher "noise floor", and a higher noise floor= less dynamic contrast. So all else being equal [which it never is], in most rooms a wide-pattern speaker tends to convey less dynamic contrast than a narrow-pattern speaker.)

The listening fatigue thing is a bit more complicated. The ear/brain system is constantly analyzing incoming sounds to see if they are new sounds or reflections (repetitions of a recent new sound). What the ear looks at is, the spectral content. If it sounds like a reflection, then it is a reflection. But, what if it only sounds kinda-sorta like a reflection because the spectral content is skewed? In that case, the ear/brain system has to use more CPU power to correctly classify the sound as a reflection. And over time this additional CPU usage causes the processor to overheat, and the result is listening fatigue... and in extreme cases, a head-ache.

I think the Thrax system probably does an exceptionally good job with the reverberant field, and therefore should have good timbre and be enjoyable for hours on end.

Finally, when the reverberant sound has a similar spectral balance to the direct sound, the tonal balance holds up well throughout the room because you aren't so reliant on the direct sound.

Imo one way to quickly check on the reverberant field (and by extrapolation to make an educated guess about long-term listening enjoyment) is to listen from outside the room through an open doorway, with no line-of-sight to the speakers. Assuming the room isn't overdamped, this will give you a useful idea of how spectrally correct the reverberant field is. And assuming there isn't some harshness or other annoying artifact in the direct sound, a natural-sounding reverberant field bodes well for long-term fatigue-free listening. Note that a live saxophone or piano or little-girl-with-guitar would sound convincing through that open doorway.



Dude. You rock.
Thought it was a pretty good sounding system the two times I have heard it (again shows) but it didn’t burn a strong impression in my brain...
 
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(Virtually everything in audio being a trade-off, one thing that a wide-pattern speaker like the Thrax trades off versus a narrow-pattern speaker like the Avantgarde is, dynamic contrast. Wide pattern = more energy out in the reverberant field = a higher "noise floor", and a higher noise floor= less dynamic contrast. So all else being equal [which it never is], in most rooms a wide-pattern speaker tends to convey less dynamic contrast than a narrow-pattern speaker.)


Hello Duke

Help me out here. What do you consider narrow pattern and the important frequency range for dynamic contrast??

From my point of view it's the whole spectrum where the fundamentals lie ??

Reason I am asking is none of those system are going to have any real directivity control until you get up over 500hz or so. None of those horns are large enough for control bellow that. They are going to be similar to large direct radiator like 15' as an example.

The way they are designed they are going to have asymmetrical polar patterns and AAIK the directivity is not matched from horn to horn. So you will have a first reflection issue as well because of collapsing directivity and then wide directivity just like a conventional direct radiator system as you transition between drivers.

Why would systems like this be better at dynamic contrasts??


Rob :)
 
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[potentially self-serving mini-rant] I don't know why more speakers don't have some means of tweaking the treble region a bit... something aside from playing with toe-in or changing cables or rolling tubes or adding room treatments. Chances are the tweeter is more efficient than the woofer, so there is probably padding involved... why not make that padding user-adjustable?

Actually, the mids and highs are adjustable courtesy of the bass cabinets on the Thrax combo.
 
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Hello Duke

Help me out here. What do you consider narrow pattern and the important frequency range for dynamic contrast??

From my point of view it's the whole spectrum where the fundamentals lie ??

I suppose what would be a "wide pattern" for a horn (say 90 degrees) might be a somewhat "narrow pattern" for a direct radiator. I guess I'd consider 45 degrees to be a "narrow pattern" for a horn, and maybe 60 degrees a "medium pattern"... but this is just off the top of my head. Those may not be good numbers.

In my experience standing in the back of a large hall where a live band is playing, where the reverberant field ("noise floor") dominates over the direct sound, there seems to be less dynamic contrast and less clarity. This seems to hold true at least through the vocal range. So I think dynamic contrast matters at least up through the vocal range, which is probably pretty high if we count sibilants and hard consonants.

My understanding from reading Geddes and Griesinger is that clarity happens mostly above 700 Hz. They weren't talking specifically about dynamic contrast but there may be a connection, I'm not sure.

Reason I am asking is none of those system are going to have any real directivity control until you get up over 500hz or so. None of those horns are large enough for control bellow that. They are going to be similar to large direct radiator like 15' as an example.

If Geddes and Griesinger are right, then maintaining pattern control down to 700 Hz is really good. I'm not saying pattern control down lower isn't beneficial, but I don't think the system will suck if it has a 15" woofer or two instead of a real midbass horn.

The way they are designed they are going to have asymmetrical polar patterns and AAIK the directivity is not matched from horn to horn. So you will have a first reflection issue as well because of collapsing directivity and then wide directivity just like a conventional direct radiator system as you transition between drivers.

I presume you are talking about Avantgardes (and perhaps similar designs) here? I'm into constant-directivity horns, for exactly the reasons you mention. There are of course advantages to Avantgarde's "spherical" horns so I suppose it's a juggling of tradeoffs.

Why would systems like this be better at dynamic contrasts??

First, the Avantgardes' overall pattern is generally narrower than say the Thrax horn or the 90 degree oblate spheroid, so the direct-to-reverberant sound ratio will be higher for the Avantgardes. I'm NOT saying this is overall desirable - just that I think greater dynamic contrast is implied by this. The difference may or may not be big enough to matter; I don't know what the audibility thresholds are.

Second, assuming equivalent drivers, the on-axis efficiency of the Avantgardes will be higher. This is because at the top end of each horn-loaded driver's range (which is usually the limiting factor for a horn-loaded driver's practical efficiency), the output is being funneled into a relatively narrow pattern, and narrower pattern = higher pressure (in fire hoses and in horns). In contrast the style horn I prefer aspires to constant pattern width all the way up, which doesn't really happen without a diffraction slot (like the Thrax horn uses). Anyway to the extent that there is a causal relationship between on-axis efficiency and dynamic contrast, seems to me the higher-on-axis-efficiency horns of the Avantgardes would theoretically have better dynamic contrast.

I wish it weren't so. I wish the kind of horns I like were equal or better at everything, but I don't think that's the case.
 
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A friend has designed a conical CD horn with tractrix roundoff and 75x45 dispersion, which is very promising
target is CD qualities with equally even impedance load pattern as my JMLC 270
listened to it on tuesday with JBL2450 SL with Truextent be dias
very promising
distortion figures are lowest we´ve ever measured and frequency respons is close to identical with the 75 degrees dispersion
will be even better in hf with TAD 4003 which is next protostage
target is to try and avoid tweeter
some critical throat adapter design drawing in solidworks and we´re good to go
sources of inspiration for growl and fun is JBL 2360, Kipsch 402 and more recent JBL 2384, but with high precision throat adapter that follows as a natural extension of the 4003 exit...so far we´ve 3d printet them with great succes but 5 axis cnc alu is probably next step
 
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