KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Exlibris]

Did you buy the 28s?

I'm going to buy the No. 33 but not until the new year.

 

[microstrip]

I think it comes down to both sensitivity and the drivers in a particular system resistance to thermal effects (note, there is no cure for this only mitigation). For example, if we take your speakers, the Q3, they have a reasonably high sensitivity of 90db; however, this is at 4 ohms, which really means 2 watts with a 2.83V drive signal (or 87db 8 ohm equivalent) and according to the German Stereoplay magazine quite hungry and tough fairly tough impedance. They also list the speaker's max volume level as 103dB, which is not super high and the speaker will for sure start to sound strained well below that level. They give the dynamics rating an 11, which is good but not outstanding, unlike the Naturalness they give a very strong 16 and resolution a strong 14. So, while your speaker is perhaps reasonably dynamic sounding for moderate volume levels it will not, IMO compete with a high sensitivity speaker of similar size and price. It might very well do other things better that are more important to you and others.

IMHO the Q3 will be able to sustain levels with peaks significantly higher than 103 dB without thermal compression, according to the shown graph from Stereoplay - a rave review, anyway. These are numbers not feelings. IMHO it will sound uncompressed well up to the maximum level enjoyed by most audiophiles.


Probably your needs of loudness level are different from mine or Peter one's.

So, I would say probably around 90db as a baseline but a true 90db with at least 20db headroom on that 2.83V output (so a peak of at least 110db). This would then suggest that the coils and motor can deal with heat effectively and/or not too much is being lost in the crossover (another big factor for losing sensitivity). Below 90db the speaker would have to have a VERY robust motor and cooling but this is just not normally seen in non-pro drivers. If that is the case; however, then I guess a low sensitivity speaker could do pretty good dynamics...but probably still fall behind the better high sensitivity speakers, horn or not horn.

Again just suggestions and myths, nothing else. Do you consider that the almost thirty years old Dynaudio graphs showing no compression at 1000W peak levels are fakes news? Or that no other manufacturer is able to design and produce speaker units for box speakers without thermal compression?

Why speculating if modern instruments can easily measure in seconds transient compression down to .1dB? Do you believe that if manufacturers of high-efficiency speakers found that all other speakers compress transients significantly at usual sound levels they would not show us direct and simple measurements showing it?

As an example of a mid-sensitivity speaker that won't compress badly at spirited listening levels, take our Dynamikks Athos 10. This speaker is rated 92db/watt and is basically a min impedance of around 6 ohms (so a true 8 ohm rated speaker). The pro-drivers it uses can do up to about 120db (the woofer can handle program power to 1200 watts and continuous 600 watts...the coax is padded down and normally at 97db and will handle 500W program power on the mid), so at 70-100db (a reasonable dynamic range at home) the system will simply not struggle with this nor exhibit a large amount of dyanmic drop. This was easily heard at our recent show compared to most of the other exhibits, where they did fine as long as not pushed or asked to do very wide dynamic recordings at near realistic levels.

Again the famous spirited levels ... Sorry this is like pretending that a car that can reach 150 miles per hour must better than one that is limited to 120 miles per hour when driving daily in the city.

IMHO the large difference in type of sound between horns and box speakers is due to the radiation pattern and distortion. These are easily seen in measurements between different box speakers - we can not easily relate absolute individual preferences with measurements but many times can easily relate measurements with specific aspects of sound quality. Probably if we had measurements of horn they would enlighten us and we would learn from them , but unfortunately they are rarer than hens' teeth.

.

 

[Al M.]

That said I don't draw ultimate conclusions that way BUT I will say if you have a 100K + system at a show and can't make it sound good then you are probably in the wrong business as either your gear choices or setup skills are inadequate.

Brad, you really should know better than this. Poor power, poor acoustics, the list goes on for why sound at a show may be inadequate, regardless of how good your gear or set-up capabilities are.

If something sounds great at a show, then great. But if you really draw conclusions about bad sound at a show you are in the wrong business.

***

PS: What is good anyway? A good sound is fine, but a 100K + system needs to sound excellent. Good luck getting that at a show, will hardly ever happen. You'll typically hear that only in a home setting, with someone who knows/has learned what he's doing.

 

[microstrip]

This is why you should never hear at a show. (...)

I have a similar view, but with a small difference - we should never consider negatives at shows, but firm positives are worth remembering and being considered.

 

[bonzo75]

I have a similar view, but with a small difference - we should never consider negatives at shows, but firm positives are worth remembering and being considered.

I agree with that, so if I hear something good it will surprise me. I will never go to consciously evaluate a product there because if that is my only exposure high chances it will bias me against the product

 

[morricab]

Brad, you really should know better than this. Poor power, poor acoustics, the list goes on for why sound at a show may be inadequate, regardless of how good your gear or set-up capabilities are.

If something sounds great at a show, then great. But if you really draw conclusions about bad sound at a show you are in the wrong business.

***

PS: What is good anyway? A good sound is fine, but a 100K + system needs to sound excellent. Good luck getting that at a show, will hardly ever happen. You'll typically hear that only in a home setting, with someone who knows/has learned what he's doing.

So, you are saying dealers know nothing about power conditioning/regeneration, room acoustics and are unfamiliar with the gear they are presenting? Quite a damning statement...

 

[DaveC]

Brad, you really should know better than this. Poor power, poor acoustics, the list goes on for why sound at a show may be inadequate, regardless of how good your gear or set-up capabilities are.

If something sounds great at a show, then great. But if you really draw conclusions about bad sound at a show you are in the wrong business.

***

PS: What is good anyway? A good sound is fine, but a 100K + system needs to sound excellent. Good luck getting that at a show, will hardly ever happen. You'll typically hear that only in a home setting, with someone who knows/has learned what he's doing.

I agree, except we are getting consistently better sound at shows from year to year due to more folks with setup expertise and selecting appropriate rooms to show the systems in. Definitely not that last few percent, but at RMAF 2019 good sound was the norm and not the exception. I think it's enough to make some judgements, at least in more general terms and I think potential buyers will find it far more useful than confusing.

It's also not too difficult to separate room and setup effects with how the system sounds. At the last RMAF AlsyVox had a mediocre setup, due in large part to the room and lack of acoustic treatments rather than actual positioning of the speakers and listening position, while YG... to be fair a local company located maybe 20 miles from the venue.... managed to do a far better job at setup and so had a superior overall system, yet I still thought AlsyVox was the best overall system at RMAF.

I've never been to Munich but I don't hear many good things about the room's acoustics there. The new RMAF venue at the Gaylord is pretty good imo.

 

[KeithR]

Gentlemen, we have eclipsed 100 pages on my dream speaker hunt - I'm not sure if that's a good or sad thing

 

[bonzo75]

The other thing is room budget. It is quite apparent from where devore was in the small room on the ground floor with the speakers cornered that there wasn't much budget. There are many such rooms. To go there and comment grandly about the speaker is being dishonest.

There are some decent rooms, it also depends whom you are partnering with to share the costs.

 

[Al M.]

So, you are saying dealers know nothing about power conditioning/regeneration, room acoustics and are unfamiliar with the gear they are presenting? Quite a damning statement...

No comment on dealers, but bad power at shows has much bigger problems than power conditioning/regeneration. Take a hotel where every room sucks out lots of power for their hungry amps, and don't expect it sound any good. Thin, treble-oriented sound? The amp may well be starved for power. I once read on WBF that one show changed their location to a better hotel with much better power, and IIRC that hotel often hosted beauty pageant contestants where the power had to be good when every lady used their blow dryer simultaneously.

 

[bonzo75]

Gentlemen, we have eclipsed 100 pages on my dream speaker hunt - I'm not sure if that's a good or sad thing

Maybe start a dream amplifier thread if you get bored some of the stuff can then be repeated

 

[DaveC]

So, you are saying dealers know nothing about power conditioning/regeneration, room acoustics and are unfamiliar with the gear they are presenting? Quite a damning statement...

It's getting a lot better but sometimes, at least on some things... YES.

 

[DaveC]

Gentlemen, we have eclipsed 100 pages on my dream speaker hunt - I'm not sure if that's a good or sad thing

Buy a speaker and it will all be over!

 

[morricab]

IMHO the Q3 will be able to sustain levels with peaks significantly higher than 103 dB without thermal compression, according to the shown graph from Stereoplay - a rave review, anyway. These are numbers not feelings. IMHO it will sound uncompressed well up to the maximum level enjoyed by most audiophiles.
View attachment 58470

Probably your needs of loudness level are different from mine or Peter one's.



Again just suggestions and myths, nothing else. Do you consider that the almost thirty years old Dynaudio graphs showing no compression at 1000W peak levels are fakes news? Or that no other manufacturer is able to design and produce speaker units for box speakers without thermal compression?

Why speculating if modern instruments can easily measure in seconds transient compression down to .1dB? Do you believe that if manufacturers of high-efficiency speakers found that all other speakers compress transients significantly at usual sound levels they would not show us direct and simple measurements showing it?



Again the famous spirited levels ... Sorry this is like pretending that a car that can reach 150 miles per hour must better than one that is limited to 120 miles per hour when driving daily in the city.

IMHO the large difference in type of sound between horns and box speakers is due to the radiation pattern and distortion. These are easily seen in measurements between different box speakers - we can not easily relate absolute individual preferences with measurements but many times can easily relate measurements with specific aspects of sound quality. Probably if we had measurements of horn they would enlighten us and we would learn from them , but unfortunately they are rarer than hens' teeth.

.

103dB is what the magazine itself stated as the max output...

Basically all pro companies consider it an issue and make high sensitivity drivers with large, well ventilated voice coils.

It can be heard easily at moderate levels...our average show level was not higher than others...just sounded more dynamic because probably peaks were higher even when the average was about the same.

 

[Folsom]

No comment on dealers, but bad power at shows has much bigger problems than power conditioning/regeneration. Take a hotel where every room sucks out lots of power for their hungry amps, and don't expect it sound any good. Thin, treble-oriented sound? The amp may well be starved for power. I once read on WBF that one show changed their location to a better hotel with much better power, and IIRC that hotel often hosted beauty pageant contestants where the power had to be good when every lady used their blow dryer simultaneously.

Actually treble is the first to disappear if the power is becoming restricted. It will become warm and flat first.

But lots of noise on the AC can make a system bright. It's their fault for not addressing it though.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

flimsy plastic horns will sound bright too
however clean power the amps get

 

[Al M.]

Actually treble is the first to disappear if the power is becoming restricted. It will become warm and flat first.

That was not the experience of a friend when he had his SS amps on a current restricting transformer/ conditioner. They sounded thin and bright, with emaciated midrange.

I often hear reports of a thin, 'analytical' sound at shows, which may be related to this phenomenon.

 

[Folsom]

That's what you heard, but that doesn't mean your assessment of what was electrically happening is correct (it isn't). There's more than one way for something to sound awful!

 

[BruceD]

Gentlemen, we have eclipsed 100 pages on my dream speaker hunt - I'm not sure if that's a good or sad thing

Keith ponders after all this--"But how will I know when I have bought the right speakers?"

Easy-- 99% of us will hate them

Ah such is life!

BruceD

 

[Al M.]

That's what you heard, but that doesn't mean your assessment of what was electrically happening is correct (it isn't). There's more than one way for something to sound awful!

Regardless of what's really happening, it seems interesting to me that at shows it's often the 'small' systems that sound best -- they don't feature huge amps that in those situations can get "choked off".