KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[bonzo75]

I haven't but by their own admission the Devore Orangutang Reference is superior in everyway to the basic one and it was not stellar at Munich...Odeon sounds good most of the time at Munich...

Ok thought that was your level of analysis

 

[PeterA]

Thanks for this further explanation, Brad. I have also heard the Carmel 2 speaker.

 

[morricab]

Ok thought that was your level of analysis

Well, my experience with Odeon (and likely horns in general) VASTLY outpaces yours and you have never lived with...well any of the speakers you endorse.

 

[morricab]

Thanks for this further explanation, Brad. I have also heard the Carmel 2 speaker.

And what did you think?

 

[morricab]

The bass. The woooosh?

Not sure what you want to imply...

 

[PeterA]

And what did you think?

Did not like the system in which they played. The system lacked dynamics and did not sound very natural, but who knows why?

 

[DaveC]

I think it comes down to both sensitivity and the drivers in a particular system resistance to thermal effects (note, there is no cure for this only mitigation). For example, if we take your speakers, the Q3, they have a reasonably high sensitivity of 90db; however, this is at 4 ohms, which really means 2 watts with a 2.83V drive signal (or 87db 8 ohm equivalent) and according to the German Stereoplay magazine quite hungry and tough fairly tough impedance. They also list the speaker's max volume level as 103dB, which is not super high and the speaker will for sure start to sound strained well below that level. They give the dynamics rating an 11, which is good but not outstanding, unlike the Naturalness they give a very strong 16 and resolution a strong 14. So, while your speaker is perhaps reasonably dynamic sounding for moderate volume levels it will not, IMO compete with a high sensitivity speaker of similar size and price. It might very well do other things better that are more important to you and others.

So, I would say probably around 90db as a baseline but a true 90db with at least 20db headroom on that 2.83V output (so a peak of at least 110db). This would then suggest that the coils and motor can deal with heat effectively and/or not too much is being lost in the crossover (another big factor for losing sensitivity). Below 90db the speaker would have to have a VERY robust motor and cooling but this is just not normally seen in non-pro drivers. If that is the case; however, then I guess a low sensitivity speaker could do pretty good dynamics...but probably still fall behind the better high sensitivity speakers, horn or not horn.

As an example of a mid-sensitivity speaker that won't compress badly at spirited listening levels, take our Dynamikks Athos 10. This speaker is rated 92db/watt and is basically a min impedance of around 6 ohms (so a true 8 ohm rated speaker). The pro-drivers it uses can do up to about 120db (the woofer can handle program power to 1200 watts and continuous 600 watts...the coax is padded down and normally at 97db and will handle 500W program power on the mid), so at 70-100db (a reasonable dynamic range at home) the system will simply not struggle with this nor exhibit a large amount of dyanmic drop. This was easily heard at our recent show compared to most of the other exhibits, where they did fine as long as not pushed or asked to do very wide dynamic recordings at near realistic levels.

There was also a 30K (CHF in Switzerland) YG Carmel 2 speaker on display at the show. Really not a dynamic sounding speaker...pretty and pleasant sounding (although the midbass was AWOL too) but could not deliver punch or drive.

I have heard good dynamics from low sensitivity electrostatic speakers but they don't get hot so thermal compression is not a problem...however dynamic compression is. So, they would work great dynamically...until they didn't and basically just refused to get louder. This meant they were restricted to lower mid volume levels and then they had great micro and decent macro dynamics.

I think many people never push their systems that hard, which is why you see these compromises in otherwise very high end products like YG. For me it's a deal breaker and I wouldn't consider YG unless I could afford Sonjas. For many others I think it's the right compromise, in a smaller room at lower SPLs the Carmel probably isn't giving up much and the low efficiency design and low SPL limits don't matter.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

a speaker that favours certain music is compromised to start with

 

[bonzo75]

Well, my experience with Odeon (and likely horns in general) VASTLY outpaces yours and you have never lived with...well any of the speakers you endorse.

Yes the ones you live with are the best and should be endorsed

 

[morricab]

I think many people never push their systems that hard, which is why you see these compromises in otherwise very high end products like YG. For me it's a deal breaker and I wouldn't consider YG unless I could afford Sonjas. For many others I think it's the right compromise, in a smaller room at lower SPLs the Carmel probably isn't giving up much and the low efficiency design and low SPL limits don't matter.

But that is exactly how it was played at the show! Small room, modest SPL...no life...

 

[KeithR]

But that is exactly how it was played at the show! Small room, modest SPL...no life...

As Kedar alluded to, you should hunt down some better auditions. Your opinions are vastly colored by show material. I'm not saying anything + or - about this instance, but generally that is the case and in Europe shouldn't be that difficult.

Speaking of in-home demos you've had, didn't you visit Jeffrey to hear the PBN JBL hybrids? What were your thoughts on that speaker?

 

[asiufy]

Brad,

The YG Carmel 2 can't play loud. That's a fact. It's a 2-way, with tiny drivers, in a small, sealed enclosure. You gotta be intellectually dishonest to try and compare that to a bigger speaker, with much bigger drivers like the one you were showing.
But its strengths lie elsewhere. The lack of distortion in both cabinet and drivers allow for the exceptional micro dynamics and gorgeous purity of timbre. That's why the speakers will really have no sound of its own, and will take the sound of downstream components. Keith had this speaker at his place many moons ago with a suitable amp, and he was struck by exactly those two factors, purity and micro dynamics.
It is definitely not a speaker for everybody, and even I, a dealer, don't recommend it unless I know for certain that it is exactly what the person needs.

 

[morricab]

Yes the ones you live with are the best and should be endorsed

And your ears are the best and we should all bow to your opinions

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

let´s not end up in he kindergarden sandbox pls...

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

reg horn build quality..
some closeups of my Autotech JMLC 270 in Nextel finish hooked up to TAD TD-4003

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

 

[bonzo75]

And your ears are the best and we should all bow to your opinions

The only time you bow is to look up your own backside at your own system

 

[morricab]

The only time you bow is to look up your own backside at your own system

Ummm…sure...whatever this is supposed to mean...I guess its an insult...

 

[morricab]

As Kedar alluded to, you should hunt down some better auditions. Your opinions are vastly colored by show material. I'm not saying anything + or - about this instance, but generally that is the case and in Europe shouldn't be that difficult.

Speaking of in-home demos you've had, didn't you visit Jeffrey to hear the PBN JBL hybrids? What were your thoughts on that speaker?

Keith, you should know better than this...I get around quite a bit in the audio world and my opinions are largely not shaped by shows. However, when a brand does really well at a show I definitely take notice because it is quite rare. You are assuming a lot that isn't true.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Ithink we´re bottoming out here and can only elevate the intellectual lvl from here