KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search
- Thread starter KeithR
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The Alien looks like an interesting project, but they choose to hide the interesting technical details about their amplifier. They have now a distributor in my country, I will probable be able to listen to it someday.
It is also one way to use the First Watt F4 -- you just tie the speaker outputs of the SET to the RCA inputs of the F4 and add a resistor to load the SET appropriately. The interesting thing is that because the SET is only seeing a constant impedance (8 or 16 ohms, or whatever works best), you are hearing it at its best. This allows you to run the SET down at its most linear and lowest distortion range (as Ralph likes to discuss), while gaining the current capabilities of the MOSFET power buffer on the back end. Although I personally preferred the sound of my F4s without the added electronics in front (Coincident Frankenstein 300bs) and instead got a DHT preamp for voltage gain duties.
You can read about how to do this in both the 6moons review and the F4 manual.
https://6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt6/f4.html
https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/prod_f4_man.pdf
What you might think is "SET Sound" may be something completely unrelated to the character of the tube and output tranny it's self.
IMO, the driver makes more of a difference than the actually SET amp... this is why my amp has a totally separate voltage gain/driver section in it's own chassis with it's own power supply. A lot of what people consider to be "SET Sound" may actually be an inferior driver section, this part of the amp is hard to get right, and it's critical. A single triode with a resistor load is not going to cut it...
Other things that may be mistaken for "SET Sound" are some carbon resistors, like Kiwame for example. They add a warm tone many will think is 2nd order distortion. Another is a overly simple power supply with a sound that comes through in the output. Another possibility is coupling caps.
If you optimize a SET amp for maximum clarity and neutrality you can't tell what it is if it's operating <50% or so of it's capacity. In my system there's no way you'd think it was a set amp or a horn speaker without seeing it. It does not have any recognizable quality besides an absence of distortion and artifacts. The measured distortion is just not audible.
IMO, the driver makes more of a difference than the actually SET amp... this is why my amp has a totally separate voltage gain/driver section in it's own chassis with it's own power supply. A lot of what people consider to be "SET Sound" may actually be an inferior driver section, this part of the amp is hard to get right, and it's critical. A single triode with a resistor load is not going to cut it...
Other things that may be mistaken for "SET Sound" are some carbon resistors, like Kiwame for example. They add a warm tone many will think is 2nd order distortion. Another is a overly simple power supply with a sound that comes through in the output. Another possibility is coupling caps.
If you optimize a SET amp for maximum clarity and neutrality you can't tell what it is if it's operating <50% or so of it's capacity. In my system there's no way you'd think it was a set amp or a horn speaker without seeing it. It does not have any recognizable quality besides an absence of distortion and artifacts. The measured distortion is just not audible.
let's move the SET stuff to the SET thread. thanks!
In Fyne amplifier land, I have ordered a Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear+. I felt obligated since I own their preamp already and unlike most tube amps, this one isn't unwieldy- shipping weight is 24lbs! I also plan on adding a DartZeel 108 and Bakoon to my amp stable.
In Fyne amplifier land, I have ordered a Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear+. I felt obligated since I own their preamp already and unlike most tube amps, this one isn't unwieldy- shipping weight is 24lbs! I also plan on adding a DartZeel 108 and Bakoon to my amp stable.
Looking forward to reading about the comparisons. A fun set of three you've got there.
What are you currently using (sorry, I've forgotten and the thread can be challenging to navigate)?
Keith, are you comparing these 3 amps for use with the Fyne's or do you have other plans? Which Bakoon are you getting?
I will be just using them on Fyne. I did have some fun comparing Dart and Bricasti at my dealers room this weekend and much preferred the Darts presentation - but that was on YG Sonjas.
I’d like to try the new 43r but undetermined when it will be finished. I’ve been told the 23 should ship soon but I’m concerned 25 SS watts isn’t enough power. Do you have any thoughts?
No problem! I have a set of Ampzillas and a Pass XA25 in house. Pass just isn’t my thing so it will be up for sale soon.
Jeffrey,
Yes, he did. But none that I actually suggested, many of which I don't even sell myself. And buying a 25W Pass Labs to play YGs really was a bad joke. Due to the pandemic I was not able to hear Keith's experiments as he went along, so I can't pass judgement on how the whole system sounded with those particular amps.
Actually this episode prompted us to search for more options in electronics in the $10-20k range, and that led to us now carrying Bricasti products. Their amplifiers sound quite good with YGs, and start at $15k.
And besides, you are missing the point. It's not about X amount of dollars in electronics. Like I pointed out in my post, a single cable was able to transform the system in a major way. That's how transparent these speakers are. If you are not willing to 1) buy the products that are already matched by the dealer and 2) search for these matches yourself, then yeah, perhaps such brutally revealing speaker shouldn't be among your choices, and a big resonant box with an obvious sound of its own will be more suitable.
Frankly, I don't care that "all listeners were happy" as I know you have a particular hatred for YGs. What I care for is Keith's happiness, as he's a friend who happens to be a client, and I don't need to sell him a whole system to "win", I just want him to be happy with his choices, and as a friend and dealer, I support his choices and options 100%, even though I might not agree with them. Matter of fact, Keith's Haileys are in my store, in case anybody wants to check them out. They're playing extremely well right now with a $9500 Technics integrated amp, BTW.
Alex, you seem to be describing Keith's new speakers as "a big resonant box with an obvious sound of its own". Is that because they have wood enclosures? I thought they are heavily braced and do not resonate much. How would you describe this obvious sound? Keith selected these speakers after more than a year of auditioning speakers and owning the YGs. He seems thrilled with them as do his friends who have heard them in his system. I am curious because Keith strongly suggested that I try to audition the FYNE speakers and he knows that I really liked my old Magico Q3 speakers, which were certainly not resonant boxes.
Once I heard using Mogami.cables, just wasting time rotating amps. IMO of course.
Thanks Keith. Despite eventually settling on Pass (FW) myself, I also did not fall for the XA25.
There's a fallacy here, with the implication that somehow the YG Hailey doesn't have a sound if its own. It most certainly does. The Fyne is not a big resonant box, either. In fact it's not a box cabinet at all, but it too does have a sound of its own. The YG is not neutral. It measures well for flat response but there's more to transparency or neutrality than flat response. The driver behaviors aren't entirely uniform. The crossover points strain can be easily heard. The speaker does a mediocre job with the organic texture of strings. It has a vaguely inorganic "metallic" voice it casts over everything, which is easily confused with clean traits, though it can be incisive. It smears many simultaneous events in crescendo at high SPLs. It lacks musical engagement. And it is not dynamically elastic. It cannot be used with the most sensitively nuanced amplifiers. The Fyne F1-12, as I've described before is very placement-sensitive to minimize room corner-loading. It has a trifle of deep bass bloat that combined with the clean but slightly hot tweeter can render lower midrange seeming somewhat recessed. The crossover point is low and relatively unobtrusive, though the tweeter is overallocated taskwise.
Against those traits, the Fyne's very reasonable neutrality is complemented by excellent dynamic elasticity which allows the speaker to more sensitively portray nuances in transient events and dynamics, and allows pairing with simpler, generally better amplification. It doesn't smear events in complex, crescendo passages. The Fyne is not at all difficult to get sounding natural. It sounds more authentically agile than the tight-sphincter YG.
Also, let's not get carried away about what it takes to hear a power cord. It's certainly not true that one needs a YG speaker to hear differences in power cords, any other cabling, or a variety of other silly and serious whatnot people hang on this pursuit. I can hear even small power cord differences on a pair of 50 year old Dynaco A25s. You will surely be able to hear cabling differences just as well through a Fyne F1-12 as through a YG anything.
If you don't like a Fyne speaker, it won't be remotely because it is partially built from wood, with a beyond-furniture-grade exterior finish. If you like the YG, fair enough, but you're still getting a specific sound.
Phil
Strajan, in his incomplete review, is happy with with how his 13r drives his 92db speakers in his 4x6m room. My 100watt 51r sounds great with my 86db Boenicke’s. It will be interesting to see how he ultimately compares the 13r to the 23r. I don’t know why Soo In chose to rebrand Bakoon to Enleum and I doubt there’s much sonic difference between the Bakoon 13r and 41r compared to the new 23r and 43r. I see that they have sold out of the remaining 13r stock but you might consider to see if they have any 41r’s. He also made a few 75 W 41r’s that could be available.
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I appreciate this post and mentioned before I have not heard the Fyne's and am quite curious to hear them.
Now of course I may be a bit biased, but I think where I struggle with the post above is how it comes off as factual rather than opinion or, at a minimum, dismissive of how the Hailey's may sound in other systems. For example, in my experience, I am in awe at the texture of string instruments (not mediocre), vocals are incredibly immersive dripping with in the room natural presence (not a vaguely inorganic "metallic" sound over everything), I listen for hours (I would say pretty darn musically engaged) strapped to my seat and am blown away by the explosive dynamics and elasticity (not sure I have heard a tight-sphincter). My audio friends have shared similar observations at my place. I can understand the smearing at high SPLs in complex pieces and would agree. That is not too surprising.
Now would the Fyne's sound better to my tastes? Definitely open to it. Do I think the Hailey's were enjoyable before I started upgrading components and cables? Absolutely, but not like currently, so again, this could be described as a 'weakness' of the Hailey and of course limit amp selection. Have I really reached the point of diminishing returns with improved components? Perhaps, but heir headroom is what has amazed me most about these speakers. Wonderful SQ bumps from network improvements, server upgrade, DAC, cabling etc. I do not have 50 years of audio experience, only 20, so I have alot to learn and experiment. But, I thought I would throw this out there as one person's opinion having lived w these speakers for 3 years. I do have the Sonja 2.2i's on order so will be eager to hear how they compare. Thanks again to all for this valuable thread.
sure, but Srajan also listens to music at like 65 dbs. i believe there was a trademark issue so the rebranding to Enleum. i should hear from my Fyne dealer how the 23r pairing goes - that will ultimately drive my decision.
also, no issue with running a preamp in front. in fact, Srajan does that.
In hifi, opinions are factual and facts are opinions because there are no objective absolutes. When I describe how I hear something, that is a factual assessment. Whether you will hear it as same is opinion. No way to know. Maybe your hearing is more acute than mine. But also maybe your mind isn't as well trained and experienced as mine to interpret the data being sent from the ears. I had a hifi customer 40 years ago who was the 2nd largest contributor to the NY Met Opera, but he required and wore hearing aids in both ears! Circa 1980 SOTA hearing ads. Nevertheless, he was an acute judge of musical authenticity within his bandwidth limits. I genuinely strive to be as objectively descriptive as possible, whether anyone agrees, or not. And I don't really care whether even one other person agrees. I get requests for advice from all over the globe. I have to outline what I hear and explain the context for it. I grew up in Amish country, with 10% of the population living a 18th century lifestyle surrounded by 20th and 21st century life. What I learned from that is that the rest of the army can be out of step. I am squarely planted in the view that most of the hifi army is out of step today and in the recent past. Put another way, if your guru is the likes of Robert Hartley for musical authenticity & nirvana, you will forever be searching (and spending) because down that path lies ever-elusive musicality just out of reach, and madness.
I don't doubt that you are in awe of string texture on YG Hailey. I can imagine a contained speakers context where I might feel the same. But until your context includes the scope of mine, I don't know how durable that perception is. You might still think the same even if our hifi experiences are common. I think many if not most of us here have had moments of revelation wherein some long held hifi loyalty or certainty has been upended by something new, or even something old not heard before. So you may certainly struggle with my sonic portrayal as "fact." But that's not really what I've written. I just don't precede every comment with "IMHO or IMO." Isn't that a foregone conclusion? No one here seems to accept anyone's commentary as "fact." But when I write a description, it's as close to fact as I can make it, deriving from a judgment filtered for pained objectivity. Put yet another way, generally, when I am in real-time evaluating gear, what I assess more often than not can be heard by others, once pointed out, but they still might disagree on whether or how important said phenomenon is. Or whether it's important at all. So when I describe a something like a vague metallic overcast on the part of a YG speaker on the music it's playing, many can hear why I hear that, and somewhere between a few to most may think that's not important at all.
I'm just giving you the musical reality as I hear it. I think if you have listened and coveted and prioritized the mainstream high-end crossover-intensive, linearity-over-everything speaker sound that dominates hifi today, your context isn't broad enough to reach your own musical goals, even if you exclusively rely on your own research and ears. And you'll probably disagree with me.
Phil
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