KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[tima]

For planars you need space from the front wall. You also need space for the seat from the planar, ideally.
Some planars the back wave can cancel front and create a bass null in some rooms.
Ideally I like planars to be at the right width to disappear and play as one coherent wide plane with sound starting behind coming in front as of the speaker is not there.

I found Maggies (or at least mine) were real happy in a shoe box shaped room, maybe a third of the way out. Didn't need to be spread wide. Excellent dimensionality and height - I remember being somewhat stunned when I first heard them set up properly - Ella Fitzgerald standing there between the two panels.

 

[morricab]

I found Maggies (or at least mine) were real happy in a shoe box shaped room, maybe a third of the way out. Didn't need to be spread wide. Excellent dimensionality and height - I remember being somewhat stunned when I first heard them set up properly - Ella Fitzgerald standing there between the two panels.

Exactly, I find they worked very well in modest rooms as long as you could get them 1 meter from the wall behind.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I found Maggies (or at least mine) were real happy in a shoe box shaped room, maybe a third of the way out. Didn't need to be spread wide. Excellent dimensionality and height - I remember being somewhat stunned when I first heard them set up properly - Ella Fitzgerald standing there between the two panels.

They have stunning moments of the almost real. With opera it’s hard to say whether I’d go with the 20.7s over the horns, very different strengths but opera sorts the chaff from the grain. They do well in either near field or deeper installations. They tell you exactly what you are doing with every system parameter. I’ve never heard them optimally setup with less than at least 2 metres out from the front wall. That includes .7, 1.7, 3.7 and 20.7s. I have always appreciated my time with Maggies. Not perfect but what ever is. Extraordinary speaker if you feed them just right. Sonically if there is an issue it’s more likely to do with something else in the system.

 

[morricab]

They have stunning moments of the almost real. With opera it’s hard to say whether I’d go with the 20.7s over the horns, very different strengths but opera sorts the chaff from the grain. They do well in either near field or deeper installations. They tell you exactly what you are doing with every system parameter. I’ve never heard them optimally setup with less than at least 2 metres out from the front wall. That includes .7, 1.7, 3.7 and 20.7s. I have always appreciated my time with Maggies. Not perfect but what ever is. Extraordinary speaker if you feed them just right. Sonically if there is an issue it’s more likely to do with something else in the system.

They have stunning moments of the almost real. With opera it’s hard to say whether I’d go with the 20.7s over the horns, very different strengths but opera sorts the chaff from the grain. They do well in either near field or deeper installations. They tell you exactly what you are doing with every system parameter. I’ve never heard them optimally setup with less than at least 2 metres out from the front wall. That includes .7, 1.7, 3.7 and 20.7s. I have always appreciated my time with Maggies. Not perfect but what ever is. Extraordinary speaker if you feed them just right. Sonically if there is an issue it’s more likely to do with something else in the system.

While the best planars do exceedingly well on Opera, the best horns I have heard (LV/Kondo , Aries Cerat) do it with an even higher degree of realism.

 

[the sound of Tao]

While the best planars do exceedingly well on Opera, the best horns I have heard (LV/Kondo , Aries Cerat) do it with an even higher degree of realism.

I kind of agree... certainly on scale and drama... but the ribbons do some things in a league of their own but I’d go for the horns overall in the big picture. Electrostatics not so much though. PS while we are generalising

 

[bonzo75]

The Montagna owned by @gian60 and Pietro is superb on opera. It is highly resolving on choral, and has a stat like transparency due to the tops being open baffle, with a bit more body than stats, and more dynamics. Pietro played me some opera LPs (normal pressings, nothing special) and I couldn't stop listening.

 

[morricab]

I kind of agree... certainly on scale and drama... but the ribbons do some things in a league of their own but I’d go for the horns overall in the big picture. Electrostatics not so much though. PS while we are generalising

I was actually quite specific with two systems...I wouldn’t say all horns...

That said, have you ever heard a big pair of Acoustats?? They can do scale and big picture very well...they were flat and had relatively thick foil that gave them real heft in lower registers.

 

[morricab]

The Montagna owned by @gian60 and Pietro is superb on opera. It is highly resolving on choral, and has a stat like transparency due to the tops being open baffle, with a bit more body than stats, and more dynamics. Pietro played me some opera LPs (normal pressings, nothing special) and I couldn't stop listening.

Isn’t this speaker using basically compression drivers without the horns?

 

[the sound of Tao]

I was actually quite specific with two systems...I wouldn’t say all horns...

That said, have you ever heard a big pair of Acoustats?? They can do scale and big picture very well...they were flat and had relatively thick foil that gave them real heft in lower registers.

Yes, there’s plenty to admire in part with electrostatics but it’s just a personal thing and never really convinced by them including the Acoustats... perhaps the SoundLabs a bit more so but in the end I couldn’t bring myself to any of the electrostatics I’ve heard (add Sanders ML and various Quad) because of a slight perceived synthetic overhang that I just couldn’t unhear. Tried to bond but never happened. Could well just be an expectation bias but for me generally the better ribbons seem a level closer to natural. The better horns even more so.

 

[morricab]

Yes, there’s plenty to admire in part with electrostatics but it’s just a personal thing and never really convinced by them including the Acoustats... perhaps the SoundLabs a bit more so but in the end I couldn’t bring myself to any of the electrostatics I’ve heard (add Sanders ML and various Quad) because of a slight perceived synthetic overhang that I just couldn’t unhear. Tried to bond but never happened. Could well just be an expectation bias but for me generally the better ribbons seem a level closer to natural. The better horns even more so.

I guess you are talking about a kind of plasticky coloration that can sometimes be heard. I found that the coherence over the ribbon designs and the better bass (at least from the Acoustats) won me over with Acoustats over my Apogees.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I guess you are talking about a kind of plasticky coloration that can sometimes be heard. I found that the coherence over the ribbon designs and the better bass (at least from the Acoustats) won me over with Acoustats over my Apogees.

Yes, very much that and also at varying degrees it was as much about dynamic limitations that left them clearly sonically impressive in areas (including that cut from one cloth kind of wholeness) but also a slight synthetic quality I heard each time I auditioned just made them ultimately less believable for me. I do find the current x.7 series Maggies are among the very most coherent speakers that I’ve heard as well.

But as always none are truly perfect and so it’s as much about which criteria we each most love and which constraints we each can live with.

 

[Ron Resnick]

thanks to Micro's repost of that Cheever debate, rediscovered my amp selection since 2010:

Since 2010:
BAT VK300se
McIntosh MA6600
McIntosh MC601s
Almarro 318B
Mastersound Due Venti
Shindo Haut Brion
Shindo Montille (EL84 version)
DeHavilland 845Gs
Audion Black Shadows
FirstWatt SIT 1 and 2
Sophia Electric 845s
Ayre VX-5
Valvet A3 Class A monos
DarTZeel CTH-8550
Vac Phi 200
Vac Phi Beta (integrated)
Melody AN845
Quad ii Jubilees (yes, the gold plated beauties not the cheap Chinese crap)
Line Magnetic 219 (not my room, but on my speaker at dealer's)
Luxman 590ax
Audio Research Ref75SE

Hi Keith,

What is this a list of? Amps you gave heard and liked along the way?

 

[Ron Resnick]

They have stunning moments of the almost real. With opera it’s hard to say whether I’d go with the 20.7s over the horns, very different strengths but opera sorts the chaff from the grain. They do well in either near field or deeper installations. They tell you exactly what you are doing with every system parameter. I’ve never heard them optimally setup with less than at least 2 metres out from the front wall. That includes .7, 1.7, 3.7 and 20.7s. I have always appreciated my time with Maggies. Not perfect but what ever is. Extraordinary speaker if you feed them just right. Sonically if there is an issue it’s more likely to do with something else in the system.

+1

(I felt this post deserved more than a “like.” )

I STILL think (for my ears) that Magnepan 20.7s (or Analysis Audio Omega or bigger) driven by very high-power tube amps or hybrid amps + carefully selected and integrated stacked subwoofers (e.g. REL “six- pack”) in a room in which the speakers are at least six feet from the front wall get you absolutely SOTA (especially for vocals) sound for relatively reasonable cost. The Pendragon gets you (me) to the same place and provides peace of mind regarding integration of the subwoofer system since it all comes from the same designer.

(I am still waiting for MartinLogan to make a four column Neolith which would get you (ah, which would get me) to the same indifference curve.)

Keith likes the greater and easier dynamic pop of a highly sensitive speaker, and I totally get this and I understand it.

 

[the sound of Tao]

+1

(I felt this post deserved more than a “like.” )

I STILL think (for my ears) that Magnepan 20.7s (or Analysis Audio Omega or bigger) driven by very high-power tube amps or hybrid amps + carefully selected and integrated subwoofers in a room in which the speakers are at least six feet from the front wall get you absolutely SOTA (especially for vocals) sound for relatively reasonable cost.

I like your +1... and raise you a like

 

[NorthStar]

1 + 1 = 2 speakers (stereo)

 

[Ron Resnick]

KeithR entertained me with a very nice listening session on Friday night.

Once again I came away finding his DeVore Gibbons to be very, very good, and a great value!

 

[DaveC]

The more I listen, the more I think bass is where it's at. Modern speakers are doing well these days with the mids and highs, from single drivers that sound amazing, many box speaker manufacturers upping their game to very high levels, horns that are clear and uncolored, etc.. you can pick what you want and live happily ever after... but bass is definitely not equal across manufacturers, especially for the price.

I've been switching back and forth a lot lately between my box and horn speakers. Both are great, but the 15" woofers in the horn speakers are just so much better than the dual 7" woofers in my box speakers. It really changes how the mind perceives the other frequencies and for me, the extension, lack of distortion and effortless sound of the 15" woofers is a big part of a much more engaging listening experience. The mids and highs are give and take, but the box speaker is better on vocals and for sure has a flatter frequency response.

 

[morricab]

The more I listen, the more I think bass is where it's at. Modern speakers are doing well these days with the mids and highs, from single drivers that sound amazing, many box speaker manufacturers upping their game to very high levels, horns that are clear and uncolored, etc.. you can pick what you want and live happily ever after... but bass is definitely not equal across manufacturers, especially for the price.

I've been switching back and forth a lot lately between my box and horn speakers. Both are great, but the 15" woofers in the horn speakers are just so much better than the dual 7" woofers in my box speakers. It really changes how the mind perceives the other frequencies and for me, the extension, lack of distortion and effortless sound of the 15" woofers is a big part of a much more engaging listening experience. The mids and highs are give and take, but the box speaker is better on vocals and for sure has a flatter frequency response.

Was commenting on something similar at live event I went to over the weekend. The amount of bass was way beyond what one normally hears in a home environment and yet it worked despite being on the "heavy" side. Perhaps it being an outdoor concert make the difference to some degree...

 

[morricab]

The more I listen, the more I think bass is where it's at. Modern speakers are doing well these days with the mids and highs, from single drivers that sound amazing, many box speaker manufacturers upping their game to very high levels, horns that are clear and uncolored, etc.. you can pick what you want and live happily ever after... but bass is definitely not equal across manufacturers, especially for the price.

I've been switching back and forth a lot lately between my box and horn speakers. Both are great, but the 15" woofers in the horn speakers are just so much better than the dual 7" woofers in my box speakers. It really changes how the mind perceives the other frequencies and for me, the extension, lack of distortion and effortless sound of the 15" woofers is a big part of a much more engaging listening experience. The mids and highs are give and take, but the box speaker is better on vocals and for sure has a flatter frequency response.

One other thing I have noticed is that with my horns, the 10 inch midbass coupled to the back horn gives tremendous mid bass punch. There is not so much deep bass (probably little below 35hz) but the range from 50-120 is simply huge and equivalent to several 15inchers I would estimate...all that and the cone itself is not even visibly moving at all. This lack of motion also helps to reduce distortion in the bass so there is a lot of texture coming through.

 

[Al M.]

The more I listen, the more I think bass is where it's at. Modern speakers are doing well these days with the mids and highs, from single drivers that sound amazing, many box speaker manufacturers upping their game to very high levels, horns that are clear and uncolored, etc.. you can pick what you want and live happily ever after... but bass is definitely not equal across manufacturers, especially for the price.

I've been switching back and forth a lot lately between my box and horn speakers. Both are great, but the 15" woofers in the horn speakers are just so much better than the dual 7" woofers in my box speakers. It really changes how the mind perceives the other frequencies and for me, the extension, lack of distortion and effortless sound of the 15" woofers is a big part of a much more engaging listening experience. The mids and highs are give and take, but the box speaker is better on vocals and for sure has a flatter frequency response.

May I ask what is the size of your room, Dave? I have a mid-sized room of 24 x 12 (13.5 at small window bay) x 8.5 ft. In this room I might run into trouble with larger subs than the 12 inch ones that I have. Fortunately JL Audio allows for "extreme low frequency" adjustment that prevented problems that I would have without it already with the 12 inch woofers; as adjusted (- 8 dB at 24 Hz) bass is excellent in my room. JL Audio recommends its 13.5 inch subs only for large rooms.

But I guess bass depends not just on woofer size but also on woofer design.