KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Folsom]

How flat are the AGs/aren't they?

 

[Folsom]

It sounds exaggerated because it is not under control and sounds indistinct or muddy. This is often because designers design a box with a high Q that gives a bump in the mid/upper bass but it doesn't stop and start quickly and has overhang. They want fullness but want to cheat and get it in a small box and/or with small drivers. This doesn't sound at all like what I am describing...

Yes, but the amplifier also affects how that Q works. It is much like they are making the speaker forced into the synergy it can have.

 

[KeithR]

How flat are the AGs/aren't they?

don't know. here is the only set of measurements i have found on current AG speakers.

https://stereo-magazine.com/archive...rchive&cHash=a437f1440b42c25d02d9ed7d082efda3

 

[Folsom]

The 2-3k is a little funky but honestly they aren't too bad. On axis or even close to on axis has variance only topping maybe 5db, mostly 2-3db which is not so bad. A higher impedance source may help some. It's when a graph looks like that but you realize it's set at 5db increments so every little variance is 5db or more, that I get worried. I am slightly surprised it isn't smoother though.

 

[KeithR]

Hi Keith,

What is this a list of? Amps you gave heard and liked along the way?

These are amps I've owned (or had in-home demo)

@morricab - no, i didn't try all of these amps on Devore. Most were with Zu. I don't believe in a one amp beats all theory like you tend to espouse, so I can't say whether the Ref75SE is superior to everything. It does surpass several amps I've tried on Devore and seems to be very synergistic.

 

[KeithR]

The 2-3k is a little funky but honestly they aren't too bad. On axis or even close to on axis has variance only topping maybe 5db, mostly 2-3db which is not so bad. A higher impedance source may help some. It's when a graph looks like that but you realize it's set at 5db increments so every little variance is 5db or more, that I get worried. I am slightly surprised it isn't smoother though.

you might be interested in John Devore's measurement comparison to other high efficiency speakers here:

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013...utan-o96-stereophile-measurement-comparisons/

 

[bonzo75]

you might be interested in John Devore's measurement comparison to other high efficiency speakers here:

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013...utan-o96-stereophile-measurement-comparisons/

Very, very interesting, as since I heard the O96 and the 20k and 65k Lansche in the same room and preferred the former, though the Lansche are quite good. He seems to pick out the problem with AG and JBL (the k2 m2 66000 etc series) that I hear

 

[PeterA]

Peter, could you elaborate on this?

Yes, briefly. I don't want to be too off topic. Basically, I found the Magico S and Q series speakers to sound different in general terms. The Q series is older, has a more inert cabinet, smaller but more bass drivers. I have heard the Q1, Q3 (own), Q5, and Q7. The S series seems warmer and fuller sounding, and has a more robust mid bass to my ears. They generally have fewer but larger woofers. I have heard the S1, S5, S5 II, S7. I have read some people find the S more "musical" and the Q more "accurate". I won't comment on that. I happen to like both the Q3 and S5 II very much.

My earlier comment was simply in response to the comment about speaker manufacturers "struggling" with bass. I pointed out that Magico has two lines which to me have different sound, primarily in the bass region perhaps to address different customer "tastes". Pass Labs does the same with their amp line.

Sorry Keith. Back on topic.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, correct me if I'm wrong, but my take from all this is that no one spkr you've auditioned has been a slam dunk winner over yr Devores, esp when you take the eye watering price tags of the competition into account.

Surely you should only consider the move if one of these spkrs had comprehensively trumped yr Devores, not just offered some advantages.

And maybe you'll conclude that you just really really like yr current spkrs.

 

[bonzo75]

Keith, correct me if I'm wrong, but my take from all this is that no one spkr you've auditioned has been a slam dunk winner over yr Devores, esp when you take the eye watering price tags of the competition into account.

Surely you should only consider the move if one of these spkrs had comprehensively trumped yr Devores, not just offered some advantages.

And maybe you'll conclude that you just really really like yr current spkrs.

He might even go back to Zus

 

[bonzo75]

I disagree with John, his speakers need space and to be pulled out

 

[Folsom]

you might be interested in John Devore's measurement comparison to other high efficiency speakers here:

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013...utan-o96-stereophile-measurement-comparisons/

Well, not much different really. The order of the crossover is likely part of it, where as for the AG I don't know.

 

[DaveC]

May I ask what is the size of your room, Dave? I have a mid-sized room of 24 x 12 (13.5 at small window bay) x 8.5 ft. In this room I might run into trouble with larger subs than the 12 inch ones that I have. Fortunately JL Audio allows for "extreme low frequency" adjustment that prevented problems that I would have without it already with the 12 inch woofers; as adjusted (- 8 dB at 24 Hz) bass is excellent in my room. JL Audio recommends its 13.5 inch subs only for large rooms.

But I guess bass depends not just on woofer size but also on woofer design.

The main room is about 15 ft wide with 13ft ceilings, but is open to the rest of the house. It's a funky mid 80's split-level with the main living area having the same ceiling as the upper floor. It's an awkward floorplan but for audio it's turned out to be excellent and I LOVE the high ceilings!

For subs, I'm not sure a larger cone is as large of an advantage vs a woofer playing midbass in a main speaker. I've heard multiple 12" subs kill it in a fairly large room with careful setup.

TBH it's really hard to define exactly what I like so much more about my 15" ported woofer boxes in my horns vs the two 7" TAD woofers in my S-1EXs. There is less distortion and better low-end extension, but it's not only that... the 15s provide a sense of envelopment, like the whole house is just filled with sound, and it's more effortless and relaxed vs the two 7"ers... It's also hard to say how much the mids/highs effect the perception, bass has a major effect on how we hear the higher frequencies and I'm sure vice versa is also true. Both woofers are crossed at 400 Hz as well, and I think both are 24 dB slope too... so it might be interesting to use the TAD coax mid/tweet with the 15" bass cabs and the horn mid/tweet with the 7" woofers just to see what happens.

 

[DaveC]

Bass bellow the Schroeder frequency is also due to how the speaker couples with the room - and here manufacturers have to guess. Peaks and nulls in this zone can give us a wrong feeling about the whole speaker balance. And we should remember that unless properly positioned most box speakers will show terrible peaks in the main resonances of the room.

The type of construction has a strong influence in bass quality. Houses built with heavy stone walls or concrete will increase bass significantly, creating an excess of bass in some frequencies and nulls, light building or drywall can absorb bass making it more linear, but sometimes absorbing too much in some frequencies.

BTW, IMHO discussing bass without proper measurements is very circumstantial and brings little to the subject. Properly handled, deep bass can make wonders in sound balance perception. However sometimes bass is really a curse!

Agreed! I've heard bass curse too many audio-show systems to count!

I think what I'm on about is not only frequency response but I do agree it's probably a large part of it, especially clean extension into the 20s.

I also agree about construction, my home is fairly flexible and the entire structure plays along with the music if you have it cranked up to concert levels. My IsoAcoustics stands help with this A LOT. Much less energy gets transferred to the house, you can hear a lot less crap rattling around at high SPLs with the stands.

I also think the variance in room size and construction makes active bass a really good idea. I know it has a bad rap because many manufacturers have failed to properly integrate active bass with their mids/highs, but I'm 100% sure it's possible to accomplish a near perfect match. One of the reasons I think AG finally got it right with the Duos is thay don't use compression drivers for their mid horns. OTOH a friend had some older Unos and they truly are the Bose of horn speakers!

 

[Al M.]

The main room is about 15 ft wide with 13ft ceilings, but is open to the rest of the house. It's a funky mid 80's split-level with the main living area having the same ceiling as the upper floor. It's an awkward floorplan but for audio it's turned out to be excellent and I LOVE the high ceilings!

For subs, I'm not sure a larger cone is as large of an advantage vs a woofer playing midbass in a main speaker. I've heard multiple 12" subs kill it in a fairly large room with careful setup.

TBH it's really hard to define exactly what I like so much more about my 15" ported woofer boxes in my horns vs the two 7" TAD woofers in my S-1EXs. There is less distortion and better low-end extension, but it's not only that... the 15s provide a sense of envelopment, like the whole house is just filled with sound, and it's more effortless and relaxed vs the two 7"ers... It's also hard to say how much the mids/highs effect the perception, bass has a major effect on how we hear the higher frequencies and I'm sure vice versa is also true. Both woofers are crossed at 400 Hz as well, and I think both are 24 dB slope too... so it might be interesting to use the TAD coax mid/tweet with the 15" bass cabs and the horn mid/tweet with the 7" woofers just to see what happens.

Great room. High ceilings can avoid a lot of sonic problems. I had to install diffusers on my 8.5 ft high ceilings.

With those dimensions, no wonder that two 7" woofers per side are struggling!

 

[Al M.]

I also think the variance in room size and construction makes active bass a really good idea. I know it has a bad rap because many manufacturers have failed to properly integrate active bass with their mids/highs, but I'm 100% sure it's possible to accomplish a near perfect match. One of the reasons I think AG finally got it right with the Duos is thay don't use compression drivers for their mid horns. OTOH a friend had some older Unos and they truly are the Bose of horn speakers!

There is great passive bass, but active bass can be excellent indeed as well. My subs are active (1800 W class D per channel), and with my monitors I use them well into the mid bass. My attenuation point is 72 Hz with the shallow 12 dB per octave slope from there. JL Audio even recommends a crossover point of 80 Hz -- with full range speakers! At first I thought those guys are crazy, but perhaps not so much after all. The subs are so blisteringly fast, they even fill in with high quality the low end of cello sound, which is certainly not low bass by any stretch. They track the quick resonances of the cello body with no overhang or smear at all. The sound of the instrument loses none of its detail and 'speed' with sub support. It helps that the bass is DSPd, with compensation upon microphone measurement of bass response at the listening position.

I just listened again to the jazz rock of the Trio of Doom (John McLaughlin, Jaco Pastorius, Tony Williams). You will rarely hear such tight, punchy and uncolored (and 'un-boxy') bass with outrageous rhythmic drive, it's fantastic.

The active bass allows for fine adjustment, I would not want to be stuck with unadjustable bass, being at the mercy of fixed speaker/room interaction. It can work well in some instances, in others not so much.

 

[KeithR]

Well folks, still on the hunt for a new room as a rental house fell through recently. Another 3-4 houses to check out tomorrow.

I am trying to arrange another AG demo at a local audiophile's house for more due diligence (he's on WBF as well, see the AG thread).

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, good luck on the second Duos audition. Five years of hearing Blue58's pr evolve and refine, and I remain a big fan. Horns remain an idea I return to more and more as a change from Zus.

 

[rbbert]

Sorry to break in a kibitz, but I didn't see either of these mentioned here? High-efficiency, dynamic floorstanders

https://www.daedalusaudio.com/apollo-11-speaker

https://www.daedalusaudio.com/ulysses-speaker

 

[Joe P]

WA Chronsonic XVX