KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[bonzo75]

Great report. I cannot relax in front of my speakers either. Exactly the way I want it! I look for excitement, not at all relaxation. But I guess that's not everybody's cup of tea.

Why do you interpret things the way the writer did not mean it

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I'm still puzzled by what exactly "flow" is supposed to mean (and no, I'm not trolling).

Yeah understood, Al. I get why it is confusing. It is a term Ked and I seem to use (possibly others although not sure) to describe the ability of a system to sound continuous musically such that one is sucked deeply into the music hypnotically - achieved by seemingly musical phrasing between passages and movements or even sections of a piece. Hope that makes sense.

Once you hear a system with great flow, you can identify the attribute easily enough.

Maybe Kedar can give you his perspective on his definition.

 

[bonzo75]

Yeah understood, Al. I get why it is confusing. It is a term Ked and I seem to use (possibly others although not sure) to describe the ability of a system to sound continuous musically such that one is sucked deeply into the music hypnotically - achieved by seemingly musical phrasing between passages and movements or even sections of a piece. Hope that makes sense.

Once you hear a system with great flow, you can identify the attribute easily enough.

Maybe Kedar can give you his perspective on his definition.

I have tried. But he doesn't get flow in analog and live music either.

It is the continuity in music, there is no (relative) stop start. A well driven system has it. In SS, good class A amps have flow, but got SET driven systems have flow. There are other attributes of course, and flow cannot alone make a system.

 

[microstrip]

Great report. I cannot relax in front of my speakers either. Exactly the way I want it! I look for excitement, not at all relaxation. But I guess that's not everybody's cup of tea.

Well, emotion has always been the keyword for great audio. But permanent excitation is not my aim in sound reproduction. Neither in in life music! I get deeply involved, not just with the music but sometimes also with the performers in classic music, but I think no medical system will see the classic signs of excitement in me when listening to music. Although I sometimes feel a little anxious when I notice a concert I am really enjoying is almost ending, and most people tell us that the symptoms of anxiety and excitement can be easily confused.

 

[microstrip]

I have tried. But he doesn't get flow in analog and live music either.

It is the continuity in music, there is no (relative) stop start. A well driven system has it. In SS, good class A amps have flow, but got SET driven systems have flow. There are other attributes of course, and flow cannot alone make a system.

Your examples seem to make it even less understandable - are you saying that class A pushpull amplifiers can have flow but pushpull class A tubes can't have it?

How do you relate flow with system fluidity?

 

[bonzo75]

Your examples seem to make it even less understandable - are you saying that class A pushpull amplifiers can have flow but pushpull class A tubes can't have it?

No. I am just giving examples. As Vitus for example has flow. And that's what people seem to like when they want class A.

I am not saying another SS amp might not work better, but that is a very strong characteristic of Vitus like amps. Push pull valve amps also have other things like decay, just valve tone for those who like them over SS for such applications, etc.

 

[bonzo75]

Maybe best to hear it micro. Since you are interested in the CH these days, go to Milan and listen to two CH systems, one with Alexandria x2S2. And when there listen to Pietro's yamamura. For me that has the highest flow. And it is SS

 

[microstrip]

No. I am just giving examples. As Vitus for example has flow. And that's what people seem to like when they want class A.

I am not saying another SS amp might not work better, but that is a very strong characteristic of Vitus like amps. Push pull valve amps also have other things like decay, just valve tone for those who like them over SS for such applications, etc.

So Vitus has flow. And DartZeel , CH Precison or SS Lamm do not have it?

 

[bonzo75]

So Vitus has flow. And DartZeel , CH Precison or SS Lamm do not have it?

Did I say that? They have other things as well. For example, CH is very fast, Vitus is not. CH is very clean. It is transparent like. Etc. Would I buy it for flow mainly? No. Btw, one of my favorite preamps is Soulution. I won't say it has flow. Though can be used in a flow system. It gets complicated to explain

Lamm with good horns will have flow, it won't if you use the SETs to drive speakers it cannot. Then the flow will go because you will hear the lack of ease

Very easy example is bad digital vs good analog

 

[microstrip]

Maybe best to hear it micro. Since you are interested in the CH these days, go to Milan and listen to two CH systems, one with Alexandria x2S2. And when there listen to Pietro's yamamura. For me that has the highest flow. And it is SS

Did I say that? They have other things as well. For example, CH is very fast, Vitus is not. CH is very clean. It is transparent like. Etc. Would I buy it for flow mainly? No. Btw, one of my favorite preamps is Soulution. I won't say it has flow.

Lamm with good horns will have flow, it won't if you use the SETs to drive speakers it cannot. Then the flow will go because you will hear the lack of ease

Very easy example is bad digital vs good analog

Again extremely confusing - it seems flow is your word to some particular preference of yours, not an useful general term in audio forums. BTW SS Lamm's are not SETs ...

Anyway it was nice to infer that since bad digital vs good analog is a good example, good digital must have flow!!!

 

[bonzo75]

Again extremely confusing - it seems flow is your word to some particular preference of yours, not an useful term in audio forums. BTW SS Lamm's are not SETs ...

Anyway it was nice to infer that since bad digital vs good analog is a good example, good digital must have flow!!!

Not really, but good to know you are up to usual tricks.

 

[Al M.]

Yeah understood, Al. I get why it is confusing. It is a term Ked and I seem to use (possibly others although not sure) to describe the ability of a system to sound continuous musically such that one is sucked deeply into the music hypnotically - achieved by seemingly musical phrasing between passages and movements or even sections of a piece. Hope that makes sense.

Once you hear a system with great flow, you can identify the attribute easily enough.

Thanks, Bill. I have the same reaction to great recordings on my system as to live music, as far as being sucked into the music is concerned. In terms of quality and differentiation of transients my system has become sufficiently close to live music that this doesn't make much of a difference in experience either, at least to me.

I guess the discussion subsequent to your post just confirms that the issue is not just confusing to me.

 

[Al M.]

Again extremely confusing - it seems flow is your word to some particular preference of yours, not an useful general term in audio forums.

Exactly what I am thinking.

 

[bonzo75]

Thanks, Bill. I have the same reaction to great recordings on my system as to live music, as far as being sucked into the music is concerned. In terms of quality and differentiation of transients my system has become sufficiently close to live music that this doesn't make much of a difference in experience either, at least to me.

I guess the discussion subsequent to your post just confirms that the issue is not just confusing to me.

No confusion, just lack of willingness to understand but instead make smart alec comments instead from other parties, coupled with lack of exposure to good flow based components/systems

 

[Al M.]

No confusion, just lack of willingness to understand but instead make smart alec comments instead from other parties, coupled with lack of exposure to good flow based components/systems

That's nonsensical, Ked. All I need is exposure to live music, which is the reference standard. I hope you are not claiming that other systems with "good flow" should be the standard instead.

As for unwillingness to understand, it's rather your unwillingness to explain and engage with other people in a dialogue, instead of bashing them if they don't dance to your tune.

 

[PeterA]

Very easy example is bad digital vs good analog

OK now I get it

 

[bonzo75]

That's nonsensical, Ked. All I need is exposure to live music, which is the reference standard. I hope you are not claiming that other systems with "good flow" should be the standard instead.

As for unwillingness to understand, it's rather your unwillingness to explain and engage with other people in a dialogue, instead of bashing them if they don't dance to your tune.

Sorry, you started asking what's flow, saying no I am not trolling. The onus is on you to understand, not for me to explain. I knew where this conversation was going. You came in to say what's flow, there is no such thing, and add nothing to the conversation but cause noise. The loss is yours.

 

[spiritofmusic]

All I can say is that this thread ain't flowing.

 

[Al M.]

All I can say is that this thread ain't flowing.

LOL!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Al, thanks for the "!"
Seriously, shall we add flow to the list of other things we all disagree on?
Transparency, neutrality, dark etc.

Fwiw, going back to Keith and his horns experiences, I remain of the opinion he may be finally hearing way more unfettered dynamics and, yes, flow, than he's been used to in the past, and this may be a touch disconcerting.

Or he may really be objecting to some aspects of Duos presentation.