KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search

[Willgolf]

Keith...there are a pair of Avantgarde Duo (older version) in the Long Beach Area in Black and Blue for $6800.

 

[ctydwn]

Just read through this thread. Whewwwww. Such a treasure trove of info, both technical and philosophical. I imagine many others, perhaps not posting, learn from such expertise and perspectives. Congrats Keith as you get ever closer in your search and thanks everyone

 

[KeithR]

thanks, ctydwn - it has become a bit unwieldy in parts, but glad to hear some nuggets were in there.

Let the long wall vs. short wall exercise/debate begin! Audiophiles who helped me pack up on Saturday believe the long wall is the way to go (so the fireplace, which will be covered, would be in between)

 

[Al M.]

It's not clear to me from the video which is the short wall, but yes, short wall, I agree. You want the full 18.5 ft length of the room for spatial depth, being able to pull out the speakers from the front wall, and not having to sit too close to the rear wall which may avoid issues with bass.

 

[christoph]

Positioning the Speakers on the short wall calls for Horns or Dipoles because of their directed radiation pattern, they don't interact too much with the sidewalls that are normally rather close to the Speakers positioned on the short wall

On the short wall, cone-dome Speakers have a disadvantage compared to Horns and Dipoles because of their wider radiation pattern that interacts way more with the close side walls, muddying the Sound through early side wall reflections

 

[Folsom]

Are you sure you mean dipoles? I don't see how them being confined is good... or remotely better than a typical speaker when confined.

 

[morricab]

Are you sure you mean dipoles? I don't see how them being confined is good... or remotely better than a typical speaker when confined.

Yes he means dipoles. Dipoles have a figure 8 radiation pattern with deep nulls to the sides, which minimize side wall reflections. If they are also tall line sources then you also have limited floor and ceiling bounce. Lack of first reflections from the side walls has clear advantages in most situations and allows the close placement of the speaker to a side wall without the issues of that come from the first side wall reflection. Of course you do get a lot of reflection from the wall behind the speakers, which is sufficiently delayed as to not interfere with imaging and enhances the soundstage.

Having had dipoles in just such a room for a long time I can confirm the advantage over conventional speakers in the same room. Christoph also has a pair of Acoustats in a narrow room (that is small but longer than wide), which by most listeners accounts (including my own) works brilliantly...this wouldn't fly really with normal point source, monopole speakers.

 

[Folsom]

Yes but when they're close to a back wall you get smearing, and the reflection isn't a figure 8.

 

[christoph]

Yes he means dipoles. Dipoles have a figure 8 radiation pattern with deep nulls to the sides, which minimize side wall reflections. If they are also tall line sources then you also have limited floor and ceiling bounce. Lack of first reflections from the side walls has clear advantages in most situations and allows the close placement of the speaker to a side wall without the issues of that come from the first side wall reflection. Of course you do get a lot of reflection from the wall behind the speakers, which is sufficiently delayed as to not interfere with imaging and enhances the soundstage.

Having had dipoles in just such a room for a long time I can confirm the advantage over conventional speakers in the same room. Christoph also has a pair of Acoustats in a narrow room (that is small but longer than wide), which by most listeners accounts (including my own) works brilliantly...this wouldn't fly really with normal point source, monopole speakers.

 

[christoph]

Yes but when they're close to a back wall you get smearing, and the reflection isn't a figure 8.

Short wall positioning often enables a longer distance of the speakers to the front wall (and of the listening position to the back wall)

Cone-dome Speakers, I would rather postion on the long wall, if I had such Speakers...

 

[Al M.]

Short wall positioning often enables a longer distance of the speakers to the front wall (and of the listening position to the back wall)

Exactly my point.

Cone-dome Speakers, I would rather postion on the long wall, if I had such Speakers...

Your point about side wall reflections is correct as well of course, but you can take care of that by room treatment, which more generally (not just for side wall reflections) is advised with cone speakers because of their radiation patterns, with also floor and ceiling bounce among others.

 

[christoph]

Exactly my point.

Enabling a nice and deep soundstage I love

Your point about side wall reflections is correct as well of course, but you can take care of that by room treatment, which more generally (not just for side wall reflections) is advised with cone speakers because of their radiation patterns, with also floor and ceiling bounce among others.

Room Treatment is always advised if possible

 

[KeithR]

sorry, meant to say long wall...

looks like the "L" shape component is around 10' out of the 19' room length

 

[christoph]

sorry, meant to say long wall...

looks like the "L" shape component is around 10' out of the 19' room length

At least our Statements are valid anyways

 

[KeithR]

It's not clear to me from the video which is the short wall, but yes, short wall, I agree. You want the full 18.5 ft length of the room for spatial depth, being able to pull out the speakers from the front wall, and not having to sit too close to the rear wall which may avoid issues with bass.

the short wall has the "L" opening to its left (10' long, so quite wide) and is where the table and 2 chairs are in the video. of course i would use bass trapping in the R corner.

the long wall is the one on the right with the fireplace

 

[213Cobra]

Having visited Keith's new room, the issues favoring the long wall are:

1/ General livability/usability. If he goes short wall, visitors will see the back of his sofa with narrow passage as the only way into the living room;
2/ The long wall presents the system with approximately symmetrical corner loading, which can be managed easily;
3/ The short wall has the liabilities of right-hand corner-loading and left side slap echo and sharply-pronounced ringing resonance. Much more difficult to reconcile;
4/ Because of the distance the couch has to be pushed into the room for the short wall configuration, the listener-to-speaker distance if the short wall is used to gain speakers-in-the room vs. long wall speakers-closer-to-the wall results in very little actual difference in speaker baffle-to-listener distance.
5/ The short wall enables pulling the Gibbons 3 feet into the room. The long wall enables pulling them 18" to 2 feet into the room. Depth in hifi is an ear-candy phenomenon. You don't hear live music the way stereo hifi synthesizes depth. It's cool but not real. Horizontal and vertical soundstaging are vastly more connected to fidelity and the broad wall will support those fundamentals in his structure. The short wall will reinforce the ear candy and undermine the fundamentals.

Keith will get better sound than in his prior apartment, and he has the reinforcing asset of a concrete slab construction house.

Looking forward to helping him sort this new site over the next month or so.

Phil

 

[spiritofmusic]

Phil, you've just saved Keith a fortune in:
1- alchohol and meds to drown his sorrows
2- acoustician charges
3- psychotherapy fees to sort his inner turmoil/non binary angst (am I a short wall or long wall kinda person).

 

[Al M.]

Having visited Keith's new room, the issues favoring the long wall are:

1/ General livability/usability. If he goes short wall, visitors will see the back of his sofa with narrow passage as the only way into the living room;
2/ The long wall presents the system with approximately symmetrical corner loading, which can be managed easily;
3/ The short wall has the liabilities of right-hand corner-loading and left side slap echo and sharply-pronounced ringing resonance. Much more difficult to reconcile;
4/ Because of the distance the couch has to be pushed into the room for the short wall configuration, the listener-to-speaker distance if the short wall is used to gain speakers-in-the room vs. long wall speakers-closer-to-the wall results in very little actual difference in speaker baffle-to-listener distance.
5/ The short wall enables pulling the Gibbons 3 feet into the room. The long wall enables pulling them 18" to 2 feet into the room. Depth in hifi is an ear-candy phenomenon. You don't hear live music the way stereo hifi synthesizes depth. It's cool but not real. Horizontal and vertical soundstaging are vastly more connected to fidelity and the broad wall will support those fundamentals in his structure. The short wall will reinforce the ear candy and undermine the fundamentals.

Keith will get better sound than in his prior apartment, and he has the reinforcing asset of a concrete slab construction house.

Looking forward to helping him sort this new site over the next month or so.

Phil

Thanks, Phil, this makes sense.

Disagree with you on depth, also relative to my experiences of live unamplified music, but that is a separate issue, beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks, Phil, this makes sense.

Disagree with you on depth, also relative to my experiences of live unamplified music, but that is a separate issue, beyond the scope of this thread.

Phil,

Even though my natural inclination is to have the speakers start on the short wall, I am very sympathetic to the angst Keith has experienced for the last two years dealing with asymmetrical front “corners.”

I think it will put his mind at rest to start the new room with a symmetrical front wall configuration.

However, respectfully, I just cannot agree with your view on depth. I hear depth in the concert hall, and unlike some sonic attributes, depth is something I can hear pretty easily in a home listening room. I think depth is a lot more than artificial ear candy.

I would pull dynamic driver box speakers as much as 1/3 of the way into the room away from the front wall.

I would pull planar speakers approximately 6 to 8 feet into the room away from the front wall, and achieve the desired depth/spaciousness based on rear wave reflection time.

 

[morricab]

Phil, you've just saved Keith a fortune in:
1- alchohol and meds to drown his sorrows
2- acoustician charges
3- psychotherapy fees to sort his inner turmoil/non binary angst (am I a short wall or long wall kinda person).

That third point seems like pure projection to me...