Kuzma Stabi R compared to a Garrard 301/401??
- Thread starter kozzmo
- Start date
Unless he has a custom color, @kozzmo's 'table in post #5 is black, but the contrast in his photo is off so it appears to have more of a charcoal tone.
Black and silver are the two standard colors. The silver is muted - not at all gaudy. Some of the photos will make it look like ash gray, but in real life, there's a hint of sparkle. That bottom photo that @Davehg shot in post #70 gives you a vague idea of the sparkle factor - not at all over done.
I apologize for not getting back to this thread. Several questions were directed my way that went unanswered.
... Thom
The “sagging top plate”, is this the chassis? If so, yep. The other issue, with the 301 anyway, is the platter, which is cast. It needs balancing and contributes to the sounds from the grooves as well.
In regards to the “forward nature” of Garrard’s, if you are saying what I think you are saying, that is why so many audiophiles have chosen Gerrard’s as the turntable to front their system. Those systems also tend to include triodes and horns as the speed is what they seek, it sounds real to them.
Much of the charm of the Garrard front end is how good it can sound by making modifications that address the issues in my first paragraph, and inexpensively make a turntable that can compete with the very best. Improving stability of the turntable has been approached mostly by plinth construction, you adopted slate. Other builders have changed the platter, or modified the bearing. Ken Shindo mounted a 301 to a cherry plinth, fitted a larger better-balanced platter to a new bearing of better construction and modified a well known tonearm and cartridge to complete the package. It sold for over £20,000 and still was bought and cherished by many.
My machining skills (and requisite engineering knowledge) is not up to fixing the issues cited in my first paragraph so I had Ray Clark (of Classic Turntable Co) take care of those issues in the upgrading of my 301. He machines a much more solid chassis of brass on the CNC machine, same a new heavier and better-balanced platter. He also makes a new bearing with much better tolerances. The plinth, I had constructed of Panzerholz, which is quite a bit more dense than plain spruce ply or any other wood (don’t know if more than slate, but I think acoustically it may be more inert).
I have never owned a belt drive turntable, but have heard a few and prefer the sound of my idler. Yes, I prefer the speed of attack the idler gives that the belt drive doesn’t but, perhaps oddly, do not like the overly sharp on/off attack I hear from CD’s so if you too don’t like the sound of CDs because of that sharp attack then I understand, but am not as sensitive to it.
Addendum: I wrote this before reading entry 100. In that addition to this thread the author points out that “ringing” can add a sharpness to the leading edge, and the original Garrard platter (at least the 301) rings. Perhaps that is what was causing the sharpness you didn’t like? Anyway, perhaps the Kuzma out-performs the Garrard (I don’t know), but I believe it costs considerably more as well.
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I've had a completely different experience with turntables. I've listened to several Garrard 301s and 401s, owned a Thorens TD-124 and a Lenco L-70, and spent time tweaking and cleaning them. I've also owned various direct drives, with the most notable being the Technics SL-1000 mkII fitted with the EPA 100 titanium tonearm. The ruby bearings on the tonearm are in perfect condition, and I must say, operating it feels incredibly smooth, likely due to those low-friction ruby bearings. I've also heard every EMT turntable, including the direct-drive 948.
From my perspective, idler turntables have a blunt character—pleasant to listen to and compatible with most genres, but they don’t truly dig into the details in the grooves. They sound good but lack the dynamics and detail I look for. Among idlers, EMT stands out as the best, and I find Lenco to have more potential than Garrard and Thorens. There’s a lot of praise for the Garrard 301, but when people start discussing them, it’s clear that almost everything except the plinth has been replaced. Can we still call it a Garrard at that point? I don’t think so. If it's such a great turntable, why does it need almost everything replaced? In my opinion, there’s a lot of hype keeping the Garrard name alive.
In the end, none of these compare to my long-time reference, the La Platine Verdier, which is a belt drive. I admit Verdier is a DIY/enthusiast’s turntable and requires fine-tuning. However, in my experience, as well as to top-dollar belt drives, the Verdier—and some other low-cost alternatives—surpasses any of the idlers or direct drives in terms of attack, detail, and dynamics. If it had been the opposite I would keep listening Thorens TD-124 or Technics SL-1000 but I keep listening Verdier. I’ve never been a SPU guy maybe that’s the reason and YMMV.
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As said, I never owned a belt drive so will happily defer to your greater experience.
My delight with the Garrard is exactly that they are owner-serviceable and one can make a fairly decent turntable out of them by addressing the issues I mentioned in my first paragraph above. I admit, to get what I wanted I paid a bit much for my bespoke Garrard 301 (probably could have bought a used Verdier for less), but I was heavily indoctrinated into the Garrard, SUTs, high end phono stage, triodes and horns systems.
I have always believed that higher mass platters like on the Brinkmann La Grange and Verdier are better, and had considered the Verdier at one time (as part of a dream system that I could no way afford) but worried that the magnetic suspension would adversely affect the magnets in the pickups (I guess it doesn’t)? Does the belt stretch/slip? Are they still being made?
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Whatever floats your boat.
No, it doesn’t. I have experienced zero issues regarding the magnetic suspension. The key point and success of Verdier lies under the implementation of magnetic suspension. Implementation is very important on final sound and for preventing interference.
It depends where you place the motor unit. If you want it to slip certainly it can.
I highly doubt that after passing away of J.C. Verdier but there are other great high mass belt drives around.
So, in respect to this thread, does the kuzma Stabi R, taking into consideration the advantages and disadvantages of each platform, perform overall better than “modified” Garrards? How does it compare to other belt-drives like the Linn?
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Although I haven’t heard them side by side I still think it (Stabi R) does depending on how much Garrard is modified.
I think the Stabi R is a good compromise turntable. It has great pace and drive and dynamics but not as great as a good modified idler. It also does finer details and air that an idler can't match...so in my eyes its a real good compromise..plus there is almost zero upkeep in the long run.
I've long held that as design and execution of turntables improves, that the distinction between drive types diminishes. Nothing that I've done in development to this point has convinced me otherwise.
... Thom
Interesting opinion Thom. If you had to work within a budget of, say, $30,000 (that's just a number I picked out of thin air), how much of that budget would you allocate to the table, arm, cartridge and isolation?
The Kuzma is current tech. The Garrard 301/401 are museum pieces.
My dad had a Garrad 301 back in the mid-1960's...lol
My dad had a Garrad 301 back in the mid-1960's...lol
I had an odd occurrence with my 4Pt11. I had the dealer install the Hana Unami Blue and it sounded great. Fast forward until about a month ago and I had the impression the sound had become less involved, with decreased dynamics. I checked the VTA and VTF and all was good. Noticed the cartridge body seemed ever so slightly unparallel to the headshell, so I broke out my alignment protractor and what do you know…it was out of alignment with the cartridge not parallel. Not sure how it happened as the mounting screws were tightened on the body.
Fiddled to realign it, and voila, the sound snapped into focus and dynamics returned. Readjusted VTA and VTF and all is good.
I wonder what could’ve caused the cartridge body to rotate out of alignment?
Fiddled to realign it, and voila, the sound snapped into focus and dynamics returned. Readjusted VTA and VTF and all is good.
I wonder what could’ve caused the cartridge body to rotate out of alignment?
Very strange. Usually, we blame the cleaning lady for strange occurrences relating to our vinyl rig ;-)
... Thom
I had a problem with my 4point that the lift bridge was crooked and at the end of the record the arm touches the lift. It was very little and the record plays till the end. I don't notice a long time that something ist wrong.
It ends up with a crooked needle in the pickup.
Perhaps you can check this.
It ends up with a crooked needle in the pickup.
Perhaps you can check this.
I used to own a Kuzma Stabi Reference 2 with a 4-Point 11” tonearm. I have installed quite few cartridges on it and I know it very well.
It gave its place to this Garrard401with an SM3012R.
It’s fully rebuilt without cutting any corners in the process. It’s completely original without mods or upgrades. It measures slightly better than Kuzma. It plays music at another league.
FYI, I was looking for a turntable in the range of ~25-30K. Not any more.
It gave its place to this Garrard401with an SM3012R.
It’s fully rebuilt without cutting any corners in the process. It’s completely original without mods or upgrades. It measures slightly better than Kuzma. It plays music at another league.
FYI, I was looking for a turntable in the range of ~25-30K. Not any more.
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