Of course, and if they are as clearly different as caesar says, one the other or both of them are pretty grossly inaccurate.
Tim
Lack of live, dynamic percussion and drums in audio systems
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
Of course, and if they are as clearly different as caesar says, one the other or both of them are pretty grossly inaccurate.
Tim
Although I understand the importance of reproducing drums and percussion, can you correlate your findings on this type of recording with general sound quality? It seems to me most people attach too much importance to this type of reproduction, mostly because it is something you can easily compare with the real and it is challenging, but it is not a fully revelatory test.
BTW if you accept that the CD laser reading mechanism can have a contribution to sound you are in the witchcraft domain.
There have been many discussions about the servo mechanism that tracks the laser having an electrical effect on the environment inside the player by drawing surges of current from the power supply, etc.
Lee
i can answer your question 2 ways.
(1) politically correct. many very satisfying systems cannot excell at uber dynamics, leading edge energy, and large scale foundation to the degree it takes to do full justice to percussion and drum kits. these systems get the tonality and PRat and communicate the soul of the music if not it's bombast. it's the microdynamics and emotive content which satisfy. bombast is just window dressing. it's nice when you have it but it's not essential.
(2) the truth. in the pursuit of reproduction excellence there is a point at which aspriring systems either can do the whole enchilada or they cannot. yes, you need tonality, vivid clarity, microdynamics, PRaT and textural nuance.......but adding that 6th gear of foundation, leading edge energy, and unlimited dynamcis to the music takes you all the way and allows a system to excell at all types of music. this is WBF after all. the ability to really do drums and percussion allow all kinds of music to just be that much more alive. i listen to lots of String Quartets and Chamber Orchestra recordings. the extra 'oomph' and tension from that headroom my system has brings that music to a much more involving level of enjoyment than if those attributes were reduced. Cello's are more like Cello's when the full growl and groan can come thru. the same things that complete the drum kits complete the Cello....and so on.
added note; i'll fully agree that if your musical compass is pegged on percussion and drum kits as the target proof of concept then you are missing the mark. it is the least important of all the important things. but to get all the way there it is important. i have heard systems which can do percussion and drum kits really well but which are borderline unlistenable for music.
out of my 20,000+ pieces of software i likely have 15 or 20 albums of this kind of stuff....and might go 12-18 months without playing any of them. in the last 10 visits from friends for a listening session i do not recall playing any percussion and drum kit tracks.
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Hi caesar
Can I ask why it is that your first port of call as it were is that there is a profound difference between (supposedly) hi end quality electronics?
It sounds fishy to me to be completely honest. IF true, then I wonder even more about the guys who spend this sort of money. Just get a neutral player and add quality EQ to it. Cheaper, better job, and you can take it away when you wish, and change it to boot.
Tell us what the conditions were. Right now I would be using any energy in investigating that area first. A long way to go before we get to the amazing sonic differences part.
Terry, I know you are an audio skeptic, but I had a non-audiophile drummer in the room with me. This guy knows what live music sounds like! He much preferred the Boulder due to its more "real", lively bass.
So either dCS has not figured out the engineering behind this type of sound or they purposefully suppressed it to make their $80K stack sound "analog".
really, there are a few that would disagree! I don't post an awful lot so I'm kinda surprised you have such a firm opinion of me. (no probs at all, just surprised)
.
Well, trouble is, there is nothing about this response that gives us any confidence at all. I'm NOT particularly saying you are wrong, but can you not see that there are holes big enough to drive a truck thru?
The web abounds with OMFG anecdotal reports like this every day of the week. Ok, I can grant a bit of respec' that you are trying to work out the 'cause' of this, the why, unfortunately (from my perspective at least) it was an automatic audiophile industry approved (tm) viewpoint to investigate from.
IF this route is true, it will still be true after you have ruled out the usual 'suspects' no?
.
Stratospheric priced audiophile gear being idiosyncratic?? whatchutalkingabout?geddoutahere!!
Not saying you are wrong, just wondering how possible it could be that there are confounding factors.
We don't know (unless you mentioned it earlier and I forgot) what the circumstances are, in store demo? someones house?? etc.
Anyway, from the question posed in the OP, I would hazard that they are a lot closer than you currently think they are.
Isn't taking the edge off of DAC output at the analog stage pretty common practice in high end DACs? Perhaps that's my skepticism, but when I read that a DAC sounds "analog" that's what I assume. And by the way, huge, massively powered, prohibitively expensive PA systems don't capture the true dynamics and attack of percussion. Anyone who believes their hifi system does has either never been in a room with a drum kit or they have a fertile imagination.
Tim
Tim
Changing coupling caps at the DAC output stage can effect the charachter of the lower frequencies. A example is if I switch out a 2.7uf Wima for a 2.7uf Mundorf supreme,the bass will become more detailed,lively and articulate. If I jump the value up to 3.3uf the bass will become more pronounced.
My experience from tweaking my DAC.
I received this email from a GON member some time ago,who had read about my swapping out of the coupling caps.
"I finally got around to doing this a week ago and the the sound is spectacular. I really did not expect this big of an improvement as the Monarchy was already a really good DAC. Any tube recommendations? Have you tried 7308 tubes at all?
Thanks"
My experience from tweaking my DAC.
I received this email from a GON member some time ago,who had read about my swapping out of the coupling caps.
"I finally got around to doing this a week ago and the the sound is spectacular. I really did not expect this big of an improvement as the Monarchy was already a really good DAC. Any tube recommendations? Have you tried 7308 tubes at all?
Thanks"
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Tom,
Changing out things like caps, etc. can do much more to the sound than just tone controls. They can have a dramatic affect on imaging, soundstage (amount of width and depth), how natural the sound, timber, amount of detail, dynamics, etc.
Rich
"Well executed" is the key here and how many preamps other than vintage have them. My Accuphase has them,but in 35+ years I have never put them in the sound loop.
I think you missed what I was saying, tone controls would never increase detail,articulation,clarity,and frequency response. In my experience they just try to boost either end of the spectrum,which has always been frowned upon by most audiophiles.
How does a capacitor affect imaging, soundstage, detail, dynamics, etc.? I really would like to know, because here is my rather fundamental understanding of the capacitor: A capacitor stores an electrical charge. I suppose in some theoretical ideal, it loses none of that charge. In reality, it loses some, unevenly, inadvertently acting as a filter. A capacitor filters passively. It can filter somewhat specific frequency ranges, just like tone controls. I suppose it can impact the imaging by compromising channel balance, impact detail and dynamics by not letting enough signal through. But what it's really affecting, as I understand it, is frequency response, just like tone controls. But again, it is passive. It is not capable of adding anything but noise and distortion. So when people attribute capacitors with the expansion of their soundstage, or an audible increase in detail and dynamics, I have to conclude that either these effects are simply their perceptions, their way of describing hopefully very minor changes in tonal balance, or my understanding of the basic function of the capacitor is very wrong. But it could be the latter: How does a capacitor affect imaging, soundstage, detail, dynamics, etc.?
Tim
As I understand it, capacitors, and most tone controls, are passive. They are not capable of increasing or boosting anything.
Tim
http://www.octave-electronics.com/Parts/cap/bg_tech.shtml
Capacitors have a real effect on distortion levels in the signal path. Less distortion,less noise produces measurable improvement in the audio signal. While the "wire with gain" concept may never be acheived,overall lower distortion will yield a more faithful audio signal output,and in fact better sound.
Lower distortion will effect eveything your ear hears across the board.
"In their most basic form, tone control circuits attenuate the high or low frequencies of the signal. This is called treble or bass "cut". The simplest tone control circuits are passive circuits which utilize only resistors and capacitors or inductors. They rely on the property of capacitive reactance or inductive reactance to inhibit or enhance an AC signal, in a frequency-dependent manner."
It all depends on the design circuit and it's intended outcome,for better or worse. I would not favor a attenuation circuit being used in my signal path,just an unnecessary passive device to possibly add distortion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_control_circuit
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http://www.octave-electronics.com/Parts/cap/bg_tech.shtml
Capacitors have a real effect on distortion levels in the signal path. Less distortion,less noise produces measurable improvement in the audio signal. While the "wire with gain" concept may never be acheived,overall lower distortion will yield a more faithful audio signal output,and in fact better sound.
Lower distortion will effect eveything your ear hears across the board.
In their most basic form, tone control circuits attenuate the high or low frequencies of the signal. This is called treble or bass "cut". The simplest tone control circuits are passive circuits which utilize only resistors and capacitors or inductors. They rely on the property of capacitive reactance or inductive reactance to inhibit or enhance an AC signal, in a frequency-dependent manner.
It all depends on the design circuit and it's intended outcome,for better or worse. I would not favor a attenuation circuit being used in my signal path,just an unnecessary passive device to possibly add distortion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_control_circuit
I get all of that; it supports what I said. Capacitors, like simple tone controls, are passive and don't add anything (except, possibly, distortion). Therefore, capacitors, just like passive tone controls,
They can't do it. They don't have it in them. The most they can do is stay out of the way. Semantics, perhaps, but I consider these semantics important. The noise, distortion and loss introduced by a capacitor can be measured and a good bit of very expensive wishful thinking can be avoided if we pay attention to the the very real difference between believing that such parts can expand a soundstage or increase system dynamics and understanding that they cannot do any such thing, they can only be more or less transparent than another capacitor.
Tim
That's the key right there, if they do not add or detract from the original signal,they are the perfect capacitor. The straight wire with gain is acheived and zero distortion in the passed audio signal,with that all things are possible.
Tony Gee has done extensive listening tests on many capacitors.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Duelund CAST-Cu Copper / Paper-in-Oil Capacitor - 100VDC – 2% tolerance
Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): “The Duelund CAST Capacitor is a no holds barred flagship capacitor. The construction builds on the foundation of the Virtual Stack Foil design but does so with the addition of a proprietary WPIO dielectricum which necessitates several days of impregnation under high pressure. This creates a form with incredible damping properties giving a mechanical stability hitherto unheard of. On top of this casting process, a ring of hard pressed paper strengthens the damping properties of the design helping music flow effortlessly. The Duelund CAST capacitor is available for speaker use and as the CAST 630v for DC-applications.”.
Sound: The CAST capacitor has all the same characteristics as the VSF but with added top-end clarity and together with that, more spatiality. They are (like the VSF) super natural, smooth, clear and open. The tonal balance is extremely neutral, especially audible with good recordings of acoustic instruments and the human voice, so maily with classical music. Like the VSF the separation of the individual instruments is very good and in an orchestra, the string section is a group of individuals rather than just a group. Soprano's have clarity without becoming hard to the ear, wind instruments (especailly the copper section) have that nice "metal" edge without becoming rough. Where in the past you had to choose between a Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil (very good depth and imaging) or a Duelund VSF (very neutral presentation) you can now have the best of both worlds in the form of the Duelund CAST-Cu. I did find they needed a couple of weeks use to fully come to bloom, so give a chance to burn-in. My current reference!
Verdict: 14
Solen Châteauroux Fast Cap PB-MKP-FC 400VDC – 5% tolerance
Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): “Low dielectric absorption factor; High insulation resistance; High frequency and temperature stability; Good self healing characteristics of polypropylene dialectic; High Current Capacity; Excellent Over voltage and Pulse handling capability; Low self inductance; Low equivalent series resistance; Excellent stability; Flexible leads: Tinned pure copper multi-strand insulated sleeves; Superior high frequency characteristics; High Ionisation level; Dissipation factor @ 20o C: Less than .01 %; Dielectric absorption factor at 20o C: Less than .01%; Insulation resistance @ 20C: More than 100 K megohms/mfd; Temperature range: -25o C to+85o C; Dielectric: Polypropylene Film; Working Voltage: 400 VDC.” Low priced cap, same quality as SCR and Angela branded capacitors, same sizes. Why? Because they are exactly the same!
Sound: The Solen Châteauroux Fast cap is a good step–up from MKT capacitors often found in standard quality factory built speakers. Like the standard Intertechnik Audyn Cap nothing wrong with them but also nothing exciting, but if I had to choose between the two I would still go for the Solen, they seem to have a fraction more “musicality” to them. Compared with electrolytics they have much more detail, smoothness and a wider stereo image. Compared to a Mundorf Supreme Cap they sound closed-in. Midrange is slightly forward compared to more neutral caps, they can be a little “nasal” sounding in some configurations. Due to this “character” they would make a good match with Focal tweeters for example. If you have a tight budget then this is a good choice!
Verdict: 6+
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Duelund CAST-Cu Copper / Paper-in-Oil Capacitor - 100VDC – 2% tolerance
Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): “The Duelund CAST Capacitor is a no holds barred flagship capacitor. The construction builds on the foundation of the Virtual Stack Foil design but does so with the addition of a proprietary WPIO dielectricum which necessitates several days of impregnation under high pressure. This creates a form with incredible damping properties giving a mechanical stability hitherto unheard of. On top of this casting process, a ring of hard pressed paper strengthens the damping properties of the design helping music flow effortlessly. The Duelund CAST capacitor is available for speaker use and as the CAST 630v for DC-applications.”.
Sound: The CAST capacitor has all the same characteristics as the VSF but with added top-end clarity and together with that, more spatiality. They are (like the VSF) super natural, smooth, clear and open. The tonal balance is extremely neutral, especially audible with good recordings of acoustic instruments and the human voice, so maily with classical music. Like the VSF the separation of the individual instruments is very good and in an orchestra, the string section is a group of individuals rather than just a group. Soprano's have clarity without becoming hard to the ear, wind instruments (especailly the copper section) have that nice "metal" edge without becoming rough. Where in the past you had to choose between a Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil (very good depth and imaging) or a Duelund VSF (very neutral presentation) you can now have the best of both worlds in the form of the Duelund CAST-Cu. I did find they needed a couple of weeks use to fully come to bloom, so give a chance to burn-in. My current reference!
Verdict: 14
Solen Châteauroux Fast Cap PB-MKP-FC 400VDC – 5% tolerance
Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): “Low dielectric absorption factor; High insulation resistance; High frequency and temperature stability; Good self healing characteristics of polypropylene dialectic; High Current Capacity; Excellent Over voltage and Pulse handling capability; Low self inductance; Low equivalent series resistance; Excellent stability; Flexible leads: Tinned pure copper multi-strand insulated sleeves; Superior high frequency characteristics; High Ionisation level; Dissipation factor @ 20o C: Less than .01 %; Dielectric absorption factor at 20o C: Less than .01%; Insulation resistance @ 20C: More than 100 K megohms/mfd; Temperature range: -25o C to+85o C; Dielectric: Polypropylene Film; Working Voltage: 400 VDC.” Low priced cap, same quality as SCR and Angela branded capacitors, same sizes. Why? Because they are exactly the same!
Sound: The Solen Châteauroux Fast cap is a good step–up from MKT capacitors often found in standard quality factory built speakers. Like the standard Intertechnik Audyn Cap nothing wrong with them but also nothing exciting, but if I had to choose between the two I would still go for the Solen, they seem to have a fraction more “musicality” to them. Compared with electrolytics they have much more detail, smoothness and a wider stereo image. Compared to a Mundorf Supreme Cap they sound closed-in. Midrange is slightly forward compared to more neutral caps, they can be a little “nasal” sounding in some configurations. Due to this “character” they would make a good match with Focal tweeters for example. If you have a tight budget then this is a good choice!
Verdict: 6+
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Those Duelund caps are very expensive. I was going to put them in my head amp but ultimately did away with the coupling caps
I know there will always be skeptics, and that's great. It actually should be encouraged to question everyday wisdom, as most of us humans are just programmed by nature to be "yes men" and not look for dis-confirming evidence. But the differences between the 2 players were huge. If I were to take my late grandmother for a spin in an Audi R8 and a Porsche 911 Turbo back to back, she would not likely be able to tell the difference unless we did it a dozen or so times and I pointed out the differences to her. But the differences here were more like going from a horse into a car. And furthermore, I was primed to expect the Scarlatti to sound better because (a) it is more expensive - by a MILE and (B) I had listened to it and loved it before. For the drummer (who could give a rat's ass about all things audiophile), the Boulder was much more right sounding than the Scarlatti despite the better highs.
So in addition to differences in the actual parts used and the way the circuits were designed, I wonder if it also has something to do with digital filters. Every cd player uses its own filters. dCS has 3 or 4 different ones and they all sound different. The setting I had on when I was listening was "upsampling to DSD". The engineers - from what I understand - can futz with these filters all they want to help augment the sonic signature. To get the highs right, the Scarlatti engineers definitely engineered them to appeal to influential vinyl guys like Fremmer and Valin. (And I liked the highs better also.) But it still puzzles me why Scarlatti didn't get the bass right. Fremmer and Valin definitely missed it (or were gutless to point out a weakness).
Maybe the audiophile has just learned to like a certain sound that has no relation to the way real music sounds like.
So in addition to differences in the actual parts used and the way the circuits were designed, I wonder if it also has something to do with digital filters. Every cd player uses its own filters. dCS has 3 or 4 different ones and they all sound different. The setting I had on when I was listening was "upsampling to DSD". The engineers - from what I understand - can futz with these filters all they want to help augment the sonic signature. To get the highs right, the Scarlatti engineers definitely engineered them to appeal to influential vinyl guys like Fremmer and Valin. (And I liked the highs better also.) But it still puzzles me why Scarlatti didn't get the bass right. Fremmer and Valin definitely missed it (or were gutless to point out a weakness).
Maybe the audiophile has just learned to like a certain sound that has no relation to the way real music sounds like.
