Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
the head amp sounds better without coupling caps regardless of the unbelievable high price of the Duelund (which I was going to use)
Lack of live, dynamic percussion and drums in audio systems
- Thread starter caesar
- Start date
I would expect that. I think anytime you can remove a capacitor from the signal path,that can be, your better off. The Duelunds are pricey and I think it is diminished returns at that level.
I beleive that you can have the lowest distortion possible. I look for low distortion caps,resistors and use ferrites and other methods to mitigate "noise" in my system.
There's nothing new here. Sound engineers used these passive devices years ago.
My signature tells it all.
I have a tone control circuit designed specifically to enhance certain bands of frequency in my system and it works remarkably well, it's just implemented in a totally different way than all other "tone controls".
Were not that far off in theory, just probably the way we implement our circuits. So when I wrote that originally I was just talking of the standard "tone Control", but thinking about it,if it is done correctly,it works very well.
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I assume, then, that you have a very minimalist system? I agree with your philosophy about minimizing noise and distortion, going for "a wire with gain," but it think it is, sadly, the antithesis of most high-end systems. Even fairly minimal system will typically have a transport a DAC, a preamp and a power amp, each with their own power supplies, their own sets of resistors and capacitors and other fidelity-robbing components, all strung together with interconnects and finally ending in three or four-way passive speakers with crossover networks that are yet another nest of parts and wire.
Lots of wire. Lots of gain. Hell even the DACs have preamp stages that are typically grotesquely complicated, just to get the converted signal up to line level. Nothing minimal about it.
Tim
Rim shots can be VERY loud. Most home hi-fi is not up to the task because of the abyssmally low efficiency of 'audiophile' drivers and low amplifier power output in home systems. While it takes hundreds of watts to reproduce a Steinway piano, it takes thousands of watts to reproduce a snare drum rim shot on a Pearl drum set, for instance. This crosses the border into professional sound reinforcement type loudspeakers.
My nearest neighbor used to ask me if I was having band practice at my house. I said 'what band?'
My nearest neighbor used to ask me if I was having band practice at my house. I said 'what band?'
I have hesitated to mention the L word (Loudness) because most people have a strong preconceived picture of what that is at least subjectively, maybe like how it was with subwoofers once, it’s mostly an incomplete view.
From the technical point of view, Mark hit on one key issue that separates live sounds with recorded sounds. Most folks think of loudness like the classic “VU” meter, VU meaning Volume Units fwiw.
That indicator was developed to roughly represent the subjective loudness in the dynamic realm. This IS NOT an indicator of actual loudness, just how loud it sounds.
It works because the meter movement integrates out he peaks to a large degree, the meter shows something like an average over some time. This was needed back in the days of tape where the dynamic range was very limited relative to now with digital, recording at but not above max was important for noise. Unlike digital, tape was not a brick wall at 0dB but could tolerate >0dB levels if short (making the distortion inaudible).
Switching away from the subjective to the operation and technical requirements;
If one looks at the instantaneous voltage from a proper microphone, one finds that many things produce very high but short peak levels. For example, throwing a table spoon on to a tile kitchen floor, produced a peak level of 134dB SPL, being in a car with the windows rolled up and then closing the door produced a peak SPL of 142dB SPL.
Now, these sound like “deafening” levels but because they are short, VERY FEW are aware they exist and instead associate “loudness” with the averaged SPL readings. Now, as Mark suggests, drums are VERY loud AND they do not contain the normal distribution of harmonics but are more like an energy envelope occupying a short time.
To make recordings that “fit” on to a records dynamic range or through AM radio, it was necessary to compress this kind of signal.
With the peak maximum level set by the equipment involved, compressing the dynamic range then makes the drum sound louder because it’s average level is increased. In the extreme, one has the sound of big cymbals on some pop recordings that are SO compressed they actually sound like a high hat or something else entirely.
So, while much music is processed so that it sounds pretty good through ear buds while jogging, even a good home system is often incapable of approaching “live” even when a recording of same is used.
To reproduce something trivial like the spoon hitting the floor, one can say well with Sound level meter set on fast, it produced a peak in the 90’s.
Or, one can say, well, on an oscilloscope, the peak microphone Voltage corresponded to a peak SPL in the mid 130’s.
With one way requiring about 10,000 times more energy and being similarly more difficult, guess which way the industry goes, which kind of system can be added to an elegant room without being noticed.
In the case of a drum, one must also reproduce a wide range of harmonics at the same instant which is an entirely separate "hard task" which gets more difficult the large the acoustic power is required.
Best,
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs
Here is a fun link to a "level indicator" which helps illustrate what a difference time makes. Look at your most and least dynamic recordings with it. Remember loudness and dynamics.
http://orban.com/meter/
From the technical point of view, Mark hit on one key issue that separates live sounds with recorded sounds. Most folks think of loudness like the classic “VU” meter, VU meaning Volume Units fwiw.
That indicator was developed to roughly represent the subjective loudness in the dynamic realm. This IS NOT an indicator of actual loudness, just how loud it sounds.
It works because the meter movement integrates out he peaks to a large degree, the meter shows something like an average over some time. This was needed back in the days of tape where the dynamic range was very limited relative to now with digital, recording at but not above max was important for noise. Unlike digital, tape was not a brick wall at 0dB but could tolerate >0dB levels if short (making the distortion inaudible).
Switching away from the subjective to the operation and technical requirements;
If one looks at the instantaneous voltage from a proper microphone, one finds that many things produce very high but short peak levels. For example, throwing a table spoon on to a tile kitchen floor, produced a peak level of 134dB SPL, being in a car with the windows rolled up and then closing the door produced a peak SPL of 142dB SPL.
Now, these sound like “deafening” levels but because they are short, VERY FEW are aware they exist and instead associate “loudness” with the averaged SPL readings. Now, as Mark suggests, drums are VERY loud AND they do not contain the normal distribution of harmonics but are more like an energy envelope occupying a short time.
To make recordings that “fit” on to a records dynamic range or through AM radio, it was necessary to compress this kind of signal.
With the peak maximum level set by the equipment involved, compressing the dynamic range then makes the drum sound louder because it’s average level is increased. In the extreme, one has the sound of big cymbals on some pop recordings that are SO compressed they actually sound like a high hat or something else entirely.
So, while much music is processed so that it sounds pretty good through ear buds while jogging, even a good home system is often incapable of approaching “live” even when a recording of same is used.
To reproduce something trivial like the spoon hitting the floor, one can say well with Sound level meter set on fast, it produced a peak in the 90’s.
Or, one can say, well, on an oscilloscope, the peak microphone Voltage corresponded to a peak SPL in the mid 130’s.
With one way requiring about 10,000 times more energy and being similarly more difficult, guess which way the industry goes, which kind of system can be added to an elegant room without being noticed.
In the case of a drum, one must also reproduce a wide range of harmonics at the same instant which is an entirely separate "hard task" which gets more difficult the large the acoustic power is required.
Best,
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs
Here is a fun link to a "level indicator" which helps illustrate what a difference time makes. Look at your most and least dynamic recordings with it. Remember loudness and dynamics.
http://orban.com/meter/
Back in the late 1970s, when I used to design multiplex and compression/volume levelers/limiters for commercial FM broadcast applications, one of the big challenges was getting the snare drums in pop/rock music to sound right. Early limiters relied upon lightning-fast attack times, and produced results in which the attack was all but gone and what remained was the reverberation after the snare hit.
I developed designs that used intelligent clipping to raise the launch angle of the attack waveform, without using radical amounts of limiting. In studies of groups of listeners, I found that pre-clipping transients sounded more realistic and preserved more of the apparent loudness of the transients while still producing an FCC-compliant modulation envelope.
Today's modern digital processors like the Orban 8400 and the Omnia produce a totally synthetic sound that is illusion-based through careful study of psychoacoustic modeling. They have algorithms for every major music genre/radio format and come with presets that exploit each to varying extents. The main goal seems to be achieving dial dominance through loudness. The result is fatiguing to listen to.
I developed designs that used intelligent clipping to raise the launch angle of the attack waveform, without using radical amounts of limiting. In studies of groups of listeners, I found that pre-clipping transients sounded more realistic and preserved more of the apparent loudness of the transients while still producing an FCC-compliant modulation envelope.
Today's modern digital processors like the Orban 8400 and the Omnia produce a totally synthetic sound that is illusion-based through careful study of psychoacoustic modeling. They have algorithms for every major music genre/radio format and come with presets that exploit each to varying extents. The main goal seems to be achieving dial dominance through loudness. The result is fatiguing to listen to.
A phono cartridge will get ruffled when reading a large, sharp transient. A laser pickup has no way of knowing what kind of signal the lands and valleys it's reading correspond to. It is a series of 1s and 0s, and they are out of order too. They are picked up there and then reassembled in their proper order later. If a servo mechanism draws less or more current at any given time, the audio signal per se has nothing to do with it. People often confuse laser-read digital disks with turntables and cartridges. They have nothing in common.
That is true at macro level, but not micro. The power consumption of the servo causes power supply glitches. Those glitches can pollute the PLL circuit that is extracting and locking the clock from CD, causing the analog output of the DAC to change. Same occurs if the digital output is used.
Of course, how much this occurs is very hard to characterize. But there is an "analog" part to CD audio that does get impacted by the servo activity (its timing).
That said, the level of change here is far less than the typical feedback to a cartridge as is the characteristics of the distortion.
I have no objection to the above: it reinforces my view that digital signals are best obtained as data (eg from a computer) and then fed to a separate DAC via a data link such as Firewire, USB or Ethernet. My point was that the analogue signal itself does not cause any deterioration in the preceding digital stages, it just suffers from any such deterioration.
The title of the thread was...
I sure as heck wouldn't.
As far as the drums go, IME, I haven't heard a system that can provide the sheer impact [along with the multitude of other aspects] that a real drum set can provide. Not even close. If a person was playing a trumpet in your living room, pointed right toward you...would you want to hear it?
I sure as heck wouldn't.
Point being, I do believe that compromises are all over the map when it comes to audiophilia. Certain aspects of the reproduction, one would not want in their listening room. Yet at the same token, things that can not be realistically achieved are seemingly yearned to be brought forth in the same system. Hence the conundrum of this hobby and the aforementioned opinions offered in this thread.
Hello, caesar. Great question! If you will, allow me to ask a question back. Is this something that one would want to hear reproduced into a home setting? Personally, a cymbal radiating its energy in my living room would become deafening after some time. Perhaps presenting a ringing of the ear at the proper reproductive volume after just a short time....if the reproductive system were able to provide the realness of just said instrument. Would you want to endure it in your living room during a rock concert?
I sure as heck wouldn't.
As far as the drums go, IME, I haven't heard a system that can provide the sheer impact [along with the multitude of other aspects] that a real drum set can provide. Not even close. If a person was playing a trumpet in your living room, pointed right toward you...would you want to hear it?
I sure as heck wouldn't.
Point being, I do believe that compromises are all over the map when it comes to audiophilia. Certain aspects of the reproduction, one would not want in their listening room. Yet at the same token, things that can not be realistically achieved are seemingly yearned to be brought forth in the same system. Hence the conundrum of this hobby and the aforementioned opinions offered in this thread.
First of all, it can be done in the living room right now. Quite easily: get a high quality horn system, drive with high quality, high power amps -- easy peasy! But some people will say, "but that sounds terrible: in your face, aggressive, screechy, couldn't live with it!!". Yes, because now you're getting real volume, real dynamics, and all those nasty low level distortions are now being rammed through your throat. Before, with your quiet, refined system they were invisible, too low in volume to be a problem: get live volume sound and they can't be ignored any more -- but there is a solution ... :b:b
Good, live, in home sound can be realistically achieved; it's just hard, can't be bought off the shelf, seemingly irrespective of how much money is spent. Probably the best way to do it is to hire a pro audio guy and tell him to go for it, provided he really, really understands what it means to create high quality sound, rather than a device aimed to deafen you in the shortest possible time ...
Give Basspig a ring perhaps ...??
Frank
This to me is more than interesting and reinforce my view that immense power reserve is necessary for faithful reproduction of music , less power and your are describing the music, not reproducing it and drums require a lot of power with any speakers if they are well recorded..... More power and high sensitivity speakers too.. Of course that asks for robust power handling from the speakers .. Great Read I would like make of this a sticky ... Thanks Tom and thanks Caesar for asking a seemingly simple but truly complex question ..
To convince yourself how most Hi-Fi systems fall short just listen to drums set being played live anywhere and listen to a recording of a drums set on most systems ...
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Another factor is keeping distortion low, even at high SPLs. Distortion levels well under 1% are achievable, and I think that factors in a great deal toward realistic live sound.
Yes i very much like speed /dynamics / drums ( deep purple ,Made in japan drumsolo ) for example, Flamenco music , gunshots in movies whatever .
A speakercrossover can totally ruin a dynamic loudspekersystem of dynamics .
Its hard to get right it took me a couple of years of trial and error , it has to do with a lot of factors a certain level of speaker efficiency being one of them in my opinion
I design my own high impedance crossovers , meaning
an easier load for any amp , and when the krells get loose on a tube pre with basscontrol like the CAT no limits !!
Actually I am now working on something thats gonna reshape the world of dynamics
Speakers have to sound jumpy , not some soggy slow sound
A speakercrossover can totally ruin a dynamic loudspekersystem of dynamics .
Its hard to get right it took me a couple of years of trial and error , it has to do with a lot of factors a certain level of speaker efficiency being one of them in my opinion
I design my own high impedance crossovers , meaning
an easier load for any amp , and when the krells get loose on a tube pre with basscontrol like the CAT
no limits !!Actually I am now working on something thats gonna reshape the world of dynamics
Speakers have to sound jumpy , not some soggy slow sound
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Hi all
I happened to think of a really dynamic drum recording I have.
A friend gave me a Manger test disk which has that on it.
It (if it recall) has something like 40dB peak to average level (huge).
While the significant other may not find it that entertaining, it is a recording that when played UN-restrained, sounds like real drums in the living room.
This is a perfect recording for looking at your amp voltage with an oscilloscope for instantaneous clipping too, this uses up your headroom like crazy.
I searched the name and found a you tube video with the recording.
I don’t know what bit rate it is but you can search out a CD of them.
Anyway, enjoy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4AMGBz8eDg
Best,
Tom Danley
I happened to think of a really dynamic drum recording I have.
A friend gave me a Manger test disk which has that on it.
It (if it recall) has something like 40dB peak to average level (huge).
While the significant other may not find it that entertaining, it is a recording that when played UN-restrained, sounds like real drums in the living room.
This is a perfect recording for looking at your amp voltage with an oscilloscope for instantaneous clipping too, this uses up your headroom like crazy.
I searched the name and found a you tube video with the recording.
I don’t know what bit rate it is but you can search out a CD of them.
Anyway, enjoy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4AMGBz8eDg
Best,
Tom Danley
