Lamm ML3 + LL1, at last!

[microstrip]

I wasn't talking about Wilson it was a general comment I address them directly if it had to do with them. Go on YouTube, John Devore did anentire video on the issue of sensitivity.

we do not have reliable measured data on the Karmas's , what is the point? If we have such data we have the proper tools to estimate real power needs. Keith Howard wrote an excellent article on the subject in Stereophile https://www.stereophile.com/reference/707heavy/index.html . French magazine Nouvelle Revue du Son publishes EPDR curves since long.

I don't know where you come up with the idea of close up listening, if you read our show reports you'd know that we're usually in a large suite or a ballroom. No problem with ML3/Kharma combination filling the big space with sound even with many people in the room. Front row seats are at least 6m away from the speakers. Also both of my installations sit farther than 12' from the speakers.

Just wanted to refer my preferences for our readers, in case they are interested on the subject.

Are you selling your amps because of the great bass and dynamics you’re getting with the Wilsons ? I'm worried about you now, a few posts earlier you wrote this and going by Michelson's review you could be deaf !

If you recall I suggested a very different type of speaker for your ML3.

david

Yes, you wisely told me that the X2 S2 is just borderline effective with the ML3. I also find it. If I have not owned the ARC REF750 and did not own the VTL Siegfried II and the conrad johnson ART I would probably be happy with the ML3/XLF combo.

BTW, in this hobby , just because someone if following a different path does not mean the previous one was a faulty, have less merit or a wrong option. I enjoy music and trying different gear. I try to buy most of my equipment in used condition in order to be able to sell with acceptable loss after experimentation if I do not want to keep it - the XLFs and the Vivaldi were exceptions.

Mike Lavigne did the same, he bought the ML3's to try them in his 97dB/W speakers - however he was fortunate than me as he easily found a buyer for the ML3's ...

To make things clear - although IMHO the XLF is by far the best speaker under 250k I have ever listened, if someone wants to buy my XLF's I would happily keep the ML3 and built a system for the LL1/ML3 pair. For me gear in just a way, not an end point. My WBF signature is dynamic!

 

[knghifi]

You’re up in the Netherlands, right? Check out Aries Cerat on your speakers...every bit as much grunt as the CAT but SET...

Is there a specific Aries Cerat model or all?

 

[tima]

I agree about reading between the lines, but with a good review - one with clear straightforward prose - you should not need to. It helps to have some familiarity with the reviewer over time. The ones that have been around for a while tend to be credible.

 

[morricab]

Is there a specific Aries Cerat model or all?

Diana Forte and Concero 65s I was primarily thinking.

 

[andromedaaudio]

View attachment 77053

Yes but even then Tima assuming you are a sincere reviewer , its just one mans opinion in a cerrtain setting , room etc .
Besides the potential conflict of interest that exists in magazines which i wont really talk about , but which i will always keep in the back of my mind .
Most reviewers are very experienced listeners or at least should be after all those years .
But in general speaking are they gonna say that the ARC ref 3 actually sounded better then the Ref 5 after ARC just put a large ad in the magazine , .... i dont think so .
But there is nothing wrong with that its business , magazines have a good place in the industry because people like to read about gear .
Just like car magazines what ever.

In my view its mostly the audiophiles themselve which are to blame , they shouldnt take things that are written so literally / be all fundamental about an opinion of a certain reviewer

 

[tima]

I have no idea to what you're replying.

Yes but even then Tima assuming you are a sincere reviewer , its just one mans opinion in a cerrtain setting , room etc .
Besides the potential conflict of interest that exists in magazines which i wont really talk about , but which i will always keep in the back of my mind .
Most reviewers are very experienced listeners or at least should be after all those years .
But in general speaking are they gonna say that the ARC ref 3 actually sounded better then the Ref 5 after ARC just put a large ad in the magazine , .... i dont think so .
But there is nothing wrong with that its business , magazines have a good place in the industry because people like to read about gear .
Just like car magazines what ever.
...

I'm not confused about whose opinion I'm expressing. I assume you're not either.
So I don't understand what your point is.

You talk about a conflict of interest and say you won't really talk about that.
And then you do.

We each have our opinion. I"ll try to be polite.

You simply do not have an awareness of or knowledge about how writing and audio reviewing works sufficient to support what you're saying - if you did, you would not say it - assuming you are sincere. Across the years and the three publications I've written for I have no knowledge about who is advertising what or when. To their credit, no one has told me what to write or conclude. Only once has an editor tried to amp-up a conclusion I wrote. Reviewers have nothing to do with advertisers or advertising - that is typically the realm of publishers or someone else.

That is my experience. Feel free to ask other reviewers if they take payola or say things they don't believe because of advertising.

In my view its mostly the audiophiles themselve which are to blame , they shouldnt take things that are written so literally / be all fundamental about an opinion of a certain reviewer

Audiophiles are to blame? For what?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I'm not confused about whose opinion I'm expressing. I assume you're not either.
So I don't understand what your point is

I ve expressed myself clearly i think , nothing for me to add.
I take most with a grain of salt , to be honest i hardly read any at all anymore.
Its all fine with me

 

[PeterA]

Yes, hardly any current production speakers qualify, the best modern current production speakers that match the ML3 well are Kharmas. The Midi Grand Exquisite is the ideal partner for ML3 otherwise it's vintage speakers and there are great ones to choose from.

david

I just spent two days listening to this combination. It sounded excellent in a dedicated room with first level turntable. Natural sound from large cone speakers.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I just spent two days listening to this combination. It sounded excellent in a dedicated room with first level turntable. Natural sound from large cone speakers.

Nice , more sound remarks ??
Pictures.... i think the kharma exquisite range looks stunning as well.

 

[PeterA]

Nice , more sound remarks ??
Pictures.... i think the kharma exquisite range looks stunning as well.

The Kharma Exquisite Midi Grande is a really good speaker. This system, all Lamm Signature line with the third original American Sound (AS1000) turntable that I know of, and all set up by David Karmeli, is the best large cone speaker system I have heard. The room and record collection are very impressive and serve the goal. For this guy, it is all about the music. The system is just the tool to get him there. He is basically done, like many at this level.

No pictures, no details. The owner is not on this forum. He is a fascinating, incredibly generous and kind man. And very chill. There is a nice group of dedicated audiophiles in his orbit. It reminds me of the Seattle group, but they do their own thing, quietly. I learned a lot from these folks and continue to learn about system set up when DDK gets involved in making changes. His approach is very straight forward, and the results are instantly audible.

Regarding the sound: Very natural, after the changes. The system is dynamic, very clean, great tone. Every LP sounded different, but it was all musical. The presentation was relaxed and exciting at the same time, with very natural resolution. The system disappeared and we were left in the audience in front of the musicians playing their music. Similar to what I heard in Utah, and unlike anything I have heard from big Wilsons/Magicos, and other monster speakers. Perhaps the most surprising thing was just how natural the bass was, both extended and resolving. And this was after the subs were disconnected AND turned off. The result is a very nice modern tower cone alternative to vintage horns. Of course, the electronics, analog only source, wires, and speaker/cartridge set up are pure DDK natural sound.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I just spent two days listening to this combination. It sounded excellent in a dedicated room with first level turntable. Natural sound from large cone speakers.

Kharma with Tenor OTL 75 watt tube amps is still my reference sound, after now 23 years later. Kharma simply sounds right. knowing the ML3's i get how it should sound. very fine.

 

[PeterA]

Kharma with Tenor OTL 75 watt tube amps is still my reference sound, after now 23 years later. Kharma simply sounds right. knowing the ML3's i get how it should sound. very fine.

Mike, the combination is good but the real magic happened when Karmeli got involved with the set up of the system. Those in the room heard it immediately. But you have to give him free reign to take it as far as he can. Simply assembling the right gear is not enough.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, the combination is good but the real magic happened when Karmeli got involved with the set up of the system. Those in the room heard it immediately. But you have to give him free reign to take it as far as he can.

Peter, i respect David, don't in any way doubt his skills. are you claiming he is the only one qualified to do a proper tip-top set up? or the only one who can do a ddk Natural Sound set up?

not looking for conflict, but you are throwing this in my face.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, i respect David, don't in any way doubt his skills. are you claiming he is the only one qualified to do a proper tip-top set up? or the only one who can do a ddk Natural Sound set up?

not looking for conflict, but you are throwing this in my face.

no, not at all Mike. I’m just saying pairing the ML three with the right speaker is only a part of it. To fully realize what that combination is capable of, involves much more. In this particular case, it was a good room and great rest of the system plus attention to detail and set up. Of course David isn’t the only guy who can do it. But you must acknowledge that there are different sensibilities and people do things differently.

my only point is that the right amp and speaker combination isn’t enough. For the level of listening experience I had the last few days, it requires more.

this is a thread about the mighty ML3. I just had a delightful few days with a group of really nice guys who have their own audio society and I heard this particular system well set up with those amplifiers driving big cone tower speakers. It sounded great and it was a new experience for me. I’m just sharing it here.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

no, not at all Mike. I’m just saying pairing the ML three with the right speaker is only a part of it. To fully realize what that combination is capable of, involves much more. In this particular case, it was a good room and great rest of the system plus attention to detail and set up. Of course David isn’t the only guy who can do it. But you must acknowledge that there are different sensibilities and people do things differently.

agree with all that. and i'm not one of those set-up masters in a few days. that's not something i have experience doing successfully. but there are a few of those guys out there.

my only point is that the right amp and speaker combination isn’t enough. For the level of listening experience I had the last few days, it requires more.

no one is more sensitive to context and how rooms and set up are important than me. some are as sensitive. last week i posted that brands in a room do not equal success. it just makes it easier to get further.

this is a thread about the mighty ML3. I just had a delightful few days with a group of really nice guys who have their own audio society and I heard this particular system well set up with those amplifiers driving big cone tower speakers. It sounded great and it was a new experience for me. I’m just sharing it here.

congrats on that.

 

[djsina2]

Mike, the combination is good but the real magic happened when Karmeli got involved with the set up of the system. Those in the room heard it immediately. But you have to give him free rein to take it as far as he can. Simply assembling the right gear is not enough.

So what exactly did ddk do?

 

[PeterA]

So what exactly did ddk do?

The same as he always does. I share a bunch of it on my threads.

 

[Ron Resnick]

This system . . . is the best large cone speaker system I have heard.

. . . unlike anything I have heard from big Wilsons/Magicos, and other monster speakers.

Which large or monster cone speaker systems have you heard?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I just spent two days listening to this combination. It sounded excellent in a dedicated room with first level turntable. Natural sound from large cone speakers.

I have not read about a poster on WBF who has the Kharma exquisite classic for example .
You hardly see them for sale , end game products if the qualities appeal to you

(I know Mike had them in a smaller listening room )

 

[Ron Resnick]

(I know Mike had them in a smaller listening room )

Mike should please correct us, but I don't think Mike had this taller model which David named and to which Peter referred.