Lamm ML3 + LL1, at last!

I think we know 6. You, tang, Christian. Andrew Tan is on FB. One guy in the east who is on the forum but does not post publicly about it much if at all. Mr T so also has Kronos and the big acoustical signature top model.
i know Maril’s friend has one

I thought two were spares to use as a reference to check against for the others that were being produced.

Sure. They all left and no longer post here. Merrill55’s friend does not post here and has AS1000

Formerly active WBF members with AS2000 were Tang, Christian, Peter, DDK (2), and Ron. Five people, six tables. Ron never got his. The rest left WBF. I am the only one.

Many systems are unknown on WBF or elsewhere.
 
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@Ron Resnick Mike should please correct us, but I don't think Mike had this taller model which David named and to which Peter referred.
Please reread my post mike had the kharma " original " exquisite classic with thiel accuton midrange and Focal audiom titanium inverted dome tw.( if im not mistaken)

Probably the breakthrough for kharma as a brand
yes, i had the Kharma Exquisite 1D......sold to me in 2001 by......drum roll.......David Karmeli......who in partnership with Bill Parrish was the new Kharma distributor. those Kharma's were also 91db efficient 4 ohms. but a reasonably easy impedance curve and first order crossover. so 75 Tenor OTL watts was enough in my small room until the Tenor's decided to go 'boom'.....which they did 2-3 times and typically destroyed an Accuton ceramic mid range driver.

i preferred those Kharma's on the Tenor's to the also great and more sorted Lamm ML2's at that time, which directly compared to the Tenor's seemed just a touch 'dark', never heard them on ML3's. first time i heard ML3's was on Wilson Maxx's at a show. and i was quite taken with that combo even though it was a bit mushy. but i was hooked and eventually, years later, got a set of my own to play with and scratch my itch.

the original Tenor 75 watt OTL mono's were very, very special sounding amplifiers. too bad they were not yet a mature product when i owned them.

 
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As with Ron’s speakers, I find members here consistently overestimate how much power they need. 32 watts will drive a 91dB speaker to more than loud enough without clipping in most domestic rooms and listening volumes.
If you will indulge me in a clarification, my writing that "I am happy to give up headroom for other sonic benefits" does not mean that I no longer believe in the effortlessness of unlimited headroom philosophy. In other words, I don't think merely avoiding amplifier clipping is the right way to think about optimal amplifier power.
 
yes, i had the Kharma Exquisite 1D......sold to me in 2001 by......drum roll.......David Karmeli......who in partnership with Bill Parrish was the new Kharma distributor. those Kharma's were also 91db efficient 4 ohms. but a reasonably easy impedance curve and first order crossover. so 75 Tenor OTL watts was enough in my small room until the Tenor's decided to go 'boom'.....which they did 2-3 times and typically destroyed an Accuton ceramic mid range driver.

i preferred those Kharma's on the Tenor's to the also great and more sorted Lamm ML2's at that time, which directly compared to the Tenor's seemed just a touch 'dark', never heard them on ML3's. first time i heard ML3's was on Wilson Maxx's at a show. and i was quite taken with that combo even though it was a bit mushy. but i was hooked and eventually, years later, got a set of my own to play with and scratch my itch.

the original Tenor 75 watt OTL mono's were very, very special sounding amplifiers. too bad they were not yet a mature product when i owned them.


How was the flow of the Lamm compared to the tenor
 
yes, i had the Kharma Exquisite 1D......sold to me in 2001 by......drum roll.......David Karmeli......who in partnership with Bill Parrish was the new Kharma distributor. those Kharma's were also 91db efficient 4 ohms. but a reasonably easy impedance curve and first order crossover. so 75 Tenor OTL watts was enough in my small room until the Tenor's decided to go 'boom'.....which they did 2-3 times and typically destroyed an Accuton ceramic mid range driver.

i preferred those Kharma's on the Tenor's to the also great and more sorted Lamm ML2's at that time, which directly compared to the Tenor's seemed just a touch 'dark', never heard them on ML3's. first time i heard ML3's was on Wilson Maxx's at a show. and i was quite taken with that combo even though it was a bit mushy. but i was hooked and eventually, years later, got a set of my own to play with and scratch my itch.

the original Tenor 75 watt OTL mono's were very, very special sounding amplifiers. too bad they were not yet a mature product when i owned them.

I heard all of the Lamm installations at CES for 10+ years. Lamm always had two rooms, one large room with his top electronics, and one smaller room with his second tier electronics. The ML2 and ML3 failed to drive the larger Wilson and Kharma speakers in the large rooms. Lamm always had the volume set fairly low, and the sound was mushy. In the smaller rooms, the hybrid M1.1 drove the Kharma speakers perfectly. These smaller rooms were always my favorite at CES.

I always wondered why Lamm didn’t have an appropriately paired speaker with his SET’s amps at CES. SET’s simply can’t drive 4ohm speakers.
 
How was the flow of the Lamm compared to the tenor
never heard the Lamm in a small room like mine at home. might have been just fine. cannot say in the show conditions that it was lacking drive. or at least that that was any top mind significant issue. the Tenor/Kharma pairing always seemed free and easy to me as far as presentation. not so much that the Lamm's lacked that but that it did not stand out as a feature like the Tenor's. sometimes the Lamm's used were the Hybrid models, or the Lamm ML2's were bi-amped on Kharma's for shows.
 
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never heard the Lamm in a small room like mine at home. might have been just fine. cannot say in the show conditions that it was lacking drive. or at least that that was any top mind significant issue. the Tenor/Kharma pairing always seemed free and easy to me as far as presentation. not so much that the Lamm's lacked that but that it did not stand out as a feature of the Tenor's. sometimes the Lamm's used were the Hybrid models, or the Lamm ML2's were bi-amped on Kharma's for shows.

the hybrids aren’t good at all, IMO, and TZBC also owned them and shared the view as he moved on to NAT and then Aries cerat hybrid.

i only asked because you mentioned the ML2 was dark. I remember the tenor as having a lot of immediacy, flow, and great tones so not sure if you ever got a fair compare of that
 
If you will indulge me in a clarification, my writing that "I am happy to give up headroom for other sonic benefits" does not mean that I no longer believe in the effortlessness of unlimited headroom philosophy. In other words, I don't think merely avoiding amplifier clipping is the right way to think about optimal amplifier power.

it’s very easy to hear compression of dynamic range on under powered amplifiers. If you post the video of Mehta Mahler 3 that was recorded on your Gryphons with the Jadis sometime in September, I will even be able to demonstrate that on a video compare
 
the hybrids aren’t good at all, IMO, and TZBC also owned them and shared the view as he moved on to NAT and then Aries cerat hybrid.

i only asked because you mentioned the ML2 was dark. I remember the tenor as having a lot of immediacy, flow, and great tones so not sure if you ever got a fair compare of that
the words i used to explain my love of the Tenor were 'sparkle' in the mids, and 'agility' in the bass. something unfettered and free about them. probably the simple OTL circuit.....also it's 'bane' in terms of instability. and they got really hot.

never had both Lamm and Tenor side by side in the same system.
 
the hybrids aren’t good at all, IMO, and TZBC also owned them and shared the view as he moved on to NAT and then Aries cerat hybrid.

i only asked because you mentioned the ML2 was dark. I remember the tenor as having a lot of immediacy, flow, and great tones so not sure if you ever got a fair compare of that
were only relatively slightly 'dark' in comparison to the Tenor's. can't say they were objectively dark.
 
R Koda was a very good match for the kharma Midi Grand.
My favourite sound of MOC 22 together with Lyra /CH.
Fit n finish of the Kharmas is excellent

If i had the Midi grand id probably put a Gryphon Apex on them better safe then sorry lol.
I have no idea if the LAMM ML3 can drive them , best is to hear it like peter did

Ps if all goes well i ll be listening to a R Koda K10 shortly on a Pilium power amp



 
An audio buddy of mine once bought nominally 96 dB sensitive speakers thinking that his 15 W/ch triode amps (same as I had at the time) could drive them. The amps unceremoniously "died" on the speaker, with a flat and undynamic sound. These speakers had a 10 inch woofer for the bass which seemed to be the problem.

My minimonitors of much less nominal sensitivity (90 dB) at 4 Ohm, but with only a 5 inch midwoofer, could easily be driven very dynamically by the same amps.

It's not just specified sensitivity, but driver surface area as well. The Kharmas have lots of surface area.

The size of the speaker does not matter directly. You need to look at crossover, impedance, enclosure Q, and driver Q. There are plenty of 15" that would be well more than double as loud as your minimonitors. A mismatch is not due to cone size in itself.
 
Never compared directly…?
not in the same system, but plenty on the same speakers. over this 2-3 year period there were plenty of Kharma owners with one or the other. i was the first to pair Kharma and Tenor. as David was the Kharma distributor and also a Lamm dealer that combo was out there too. JT was a Kharma dealer until Bill Parrish took away his franchise (JT's East Coast network of friends buying Kharma's from JT in Portland upset Bill). JT was also the Tenor USA distributor.

two years later it changed from Tenor <-> Lamm.......to.......darTZeel <-> Lamm. that's still going. :)
 
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The size of the speaker does not matter directly. You need to look at crossover, impedance, enclosure Q, and driver Q. There are plenty of 15" that would be well more than double as loud as your minimonitors. A mismatch is not due to cone size in itself.

So what would explain the "dying" of the amps on the nominally 96 dB sensitive speakers?

BTW, my bad, I should clarify "my minimonitors at the time", I don't use them anymore.
 
as i recall, David only brought a single Bioner speaker.....mono......for that demo.

I posted this example to simply refute the claim that Lamm was never paired with appropriate speakers at CES. There was one show I think in 2005 where there was a pair of Bionors with Lamm plus later version Vitavox.

The guy with the big Karma Exquisite MIDI grand was considering Wilson but chose the Karma. Apparently it’s an easier load. The pairing sounded quite good to me.
 

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