Lamm ML3 + LL1, at last!

[Ron Resnick]

The guy with the big Karma Exquisite MIDI grand was considering Wilson but chose the Karma. Apparently it’s an easier load.

Do you know if the guy considered the significantly more sensitive Goebel Divin Noblesse or Majestic?

The guy obviously was having David curate the entire system, and these loudspeakers are not in David's repertoire. But these are extremely obvious candidates if the mission profile is big, simple crossover, high-sensitivity, gorgeously made, dynamic driver speakers.

I think ML3 on the 96dB sensitive Majestic could be sonic heaven for dynamic driver aficionados.

 

[KeithR]

Do you know if the guy considered the significantly more sensitive Goebel Divin Noblesse or Majestic?

The guy obviously was having David curate the entire system, and these loudspeakers are not in David's repertoire. But these are extremely obvious candidates if the mission profile is big, simple crossover, high-sensitivity, gorgeously made, dynamic driver speakers.

I think ML3 on the 96dB sensitive Majestic could be sonic heaven for dynamic driver aficionados.

they aren't quite as sensitive as they appear - nor have simple crossovers. 89db, with amps required that drive below 4 ohm loads, dropping into 2 ohm territory:

Göbel High End Divin Marquis loudspeaker

Although it was founded by ex-Siemens loudspeaker engineer Oliver Göbel in 2003, I am embarrassed to admit that I had never heard of Göbel High End until I visited the room hosted by Florida retailer Bending Wave at the 2019 AXPONA. There, I listened to the German manufacturer's ginormous...

www.stereophile.com

JA also adds color with Lamm hybrids in the review at 1-6 ohm setting.

Now, this has nothing to do with how Gobels sound, just amp pairings. For SET, I want 8 ohm speakers with 6ish minimum for optimization. Gobels were driven on ARC 160s last year at Axpona.

 

[bonzo75]

Do you know if the guy considered the significantly more sensitive Goebel Divin Noblesse or Majestic?

Where did you hear these Goebbel outside of a show and why do you think they are sensitive efficient speakers?

 

[Amir]

loudspeaker efficiency is related to both sensitivity and Loudspeaker Impedance both phase and amplitude and these are parameters I know :

Crossover design
Bass extension
driver parameters like BL
Cabinet design

so I think it is not easy to guess about if the amplifier can drive the loudspeaker or not.


The most efficient full range dynamic driver speaker I know is (models around 2007) Wilson Alexandria X2 Seties 1 and 2.

Some believes 95db 4ohm or 92db 8ohm is the end of game for highest sensitivity of Dynamic driver speakers. Higher sensitivity could obtain by loosing driver performance.

 

[Ron Resnick]

they aren't quite as sensitive as they appear - nor have simple crossovers. 89db, with amps required that drive below 4 ohm loads, dropping into 2 ohm territory:

Göbel High End Divin Marquis loudspeaker

Although it was founded by ex-Siemens loudspeaker engineer Oliver Göbel in 2003, I am embarrassed to admit that I had never heard of Göbel High End until I visited the room hosted by Florida retailer Bending Wave at the 2019 AXPONA. There, I listened to the German manufacturer's ginormous...

www.stereophile.com

The Divin Majestic I mentioned has a specified sensitivity of 98dB. See http://www.goebel-highend.de/products/divin-majestic.html

In my post I wrote 96dB just to be on the safe side and to account for any sensitivity spec fluffing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The Divin Majestic I mentioned has a specified sensitivity of 98dB. See http://www.goebel-highend.de/products/divin-majestic.html

In my post I wrote 96dB just to be on the safe side and to account for any sensitivity spec fluffing.

remember that 98db 4ohm nominal = 95db 8 ohm nominal as far as amplification.

just like 91db 4 ohm = 88db 8 ohm.

8 ohm -> 4ohm loses 3db of gain for equivalent amplification. therefore uses double the power for the same output.

read Robert Harley's thoughts on this subject for clarity. dips in speaker impedance at some frequencies can matter a lot.

speaker specs ought to be considered ball parks, not exact sort of things. YMMV.....alot sometimes.

 

[Al M.]

Athos 10s have possibly the most beastly 10 inch pro driver for bass…not a problem…my guess is that 15 watt amp had an inferior output transformer….

Unlikely. My Ensemble Reference minimonitors at the time clearly had a sensitivity less than the Reference 3A monitors. You had to crank up the volume a few steps over the Reference 3As to achieve the same loudness.

Sensitivity of course depends on how it is measured. As you have pointed out, the Reference 3A with nominal 92 dB sensitivity have been measured to be of much lower actual sensitivity. That was by that Canadian institute that measures in an anechoic chamber. If there the actual sensitivity was more like 88 dB or so, then the actual sensitivity of the Ensemble monitors must have been even lower.

I also should mention that, while they only had a 5 inch midwoofer, they also had a rather large KEF passive radiator in the back, for a reasonable bass output. When touching it with your fingers while loud music was playing you could feel quite a substantial movement of physical mass.

Even with all that, all visitors, without exception, have commented positively on great dynamics (some testimonials are on my old system thread). So if those 15 W/ch amps could drive those speakers very dynamically, they must have been well constructed.

As others have pointed out, woofer size and nominal sensitivity don't tell the whole story. For example, the woofer of those problematic nominally 96 dB speakers may have been more reactive than the woofer in the Athos 10s. On the Athos website they point out that these speakers have been specifically designed for low reactivity.

 

[Maril555]

The Divin Majestic I mentioned has a specified sensitivity of 98dB. See http://www.goebel-highend.de/products/divin-majestic.html

In my post I wrote 96dB just to be on the safe side and to account for any sensitivity spec fluffing.

I feel specs only tell part of the story. A real life experience could be different by quite a margin.
My speakers are about 106 dB, and I use simple first-order series x-over, one can presume they can be sufficiently driven by 2-3 Watts. My in-room experience says otherwise.
On the topic of those Kharma Midi Exquisite with Lamm ML3- I've heard that system on multiple occasions over the years and I can echo Peter's account- no dynamic constrictions there.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Midi exquisite is the smallest in the exquisite range.
Then you have exquisite classic and then midi grand which is the largest .


Afaik peter was talking about the midi grand which has a different eff .then the midi.
Otherwise it gets all mixed up..
In the past threre was also a mini but not anymore as far as i know

Midi grand(3.0) has a woofer at the bottom and one on top and a mtm in the middle

 

[Maril555]

Midi exquisite is the smallest in the exquisite range.
Then you have exquisite classic and then midi grand which is the largest .


Afaik peter was talking about the midi grand which has a different eff .then the midi.
Otherwise it gets all mixed up..
In the past threre was also a mini but not anymore as far as i know

Midi grand(3.0) has a woofer at the bottom and one on top and a mtm in the middle

Peter A and I were both talking about exactly the same system. Sorry, I missed the “Grand” in my post

 

[Al M.]

I feel specs only tell part of the story. A real life experience could be different by quite a margin.
My speakers are about 106 dB, and I use simple first-order series x-over, one can presume they can be sufficiently driven by 2-3 Watts. My in-room experience says otherwise.
On the topic of those Kharma Midi Exquisite with Lamm ML3- I've heard that system on multiple occasions over the years and I can echo Peter's account- no dynamic constrictions there.

Thank you for your input. This whole discussion has caused me to rethink the issue of amplifier power vs nominal sensitivity, with other factors having to be considered as well. Depending on circumstances, maybe the numbers do "add up", after all.

 

[Maril555]

Thank you for your input. This whole discussion has caused me to rethink the issue of amplifier power vs nominal sensitivity, with other factors having to be considered as well. Depending on circumstances, maybe the numbers do "add up", after all.

I suspect the calculation is a bit more complex than that

 

[Al M.]

I suspect the calculation is a bit more complex than that

That's what I meant.

 

[Maril555]

Midi exquisite is the smallest in the exquisite range.
Then you have exquisite classic and then midi grand which is the largest .


Afaik peter was talking about the midi grand which has a different eff .then the midi.
Otherwise it gets all mixed up..
In the past threre was also a mini but not anymore as far as i know

Midi grand(3.0) has a woofer at the bottom and one on top and a mtm in the middle

Exquisite Midi Grand 3.0 - Kharma

The Kharma Exquisite Midi Grand has the unique capacity to portray musical recordings in there realistic picture. The Exquisite Midi Grand is a virtual...

kharma.com

That’s the one both Peter and myself were referring to

 

[PeterA]

Thank you for your input. This whole discussion has caused me to rethink the issue of amplifier power vs nominal sensitivity, with other factors having to be considered as well. Depending on circumstances, maybe the numbers do "add up", after all.

Al, I appreciate that you have revised your earlier position. Meril555 and I have both heard this very system and shared our opinions. Mine was immediately criticized. All this numbers talk and speculation. Actual listening accounts have value.

Meril555, It was good to meet you and perhaps I will hear your system when I come back down. That would be fun.

 

[Maril555]

Al, I appreciate that you have revised your earlier position. Meril555 and I have both heard this very system and shared our opinions. Mine was immediately criticized. All this numbers talk and speculation. Actual accounts have value.

Meril555, It was good to meet you and perhaps I will hear your system when I come back down. That would be fun.

Likewise,
Looking forward Peter

 

[PeterA]

Do you know if the guy considered the significantly more sensitive Goebel Divin Noblesse or Majestic?

I never asked him, but he has had these speakers for about ten years, and he seems very pleased with the Karmas. They sound excellent. I never think about asking the owner of some system I just heard for the first time if he ever considered different speakers. That seems like a very odd thing to discuss.

The guy obviously was having David curate the entire system, and these loudspeakers are not in David's repertoire. But these are extremely obvious candidates if the mission profile is big, simple crossover, high-sensitivity, gorgeously made, dynamic driver speakers.

Lots of presumptions here Ron. The owner was a good friend of Vladimir’s for years and I think before he met David. He may not have bought his electronics from David at all. I don’t even know what people mean by someone curating a system. I think the owner chose the components and David helped him with set up at some point. Meril555 might know more about this.

I think ML3 on the 96dB sensitive Majestic could be sonic heaven for dynamic driver aficionados.

You could always start a thread about your speculation, but the owner of the Karmas seems quite happy with the sound of his system. The combination he chose sounds excellent as reported by two WBF members who’ve actually heard the combination.

 

[Amir]

I think amplifier/speaker matching is different to the subject of “sufficient power for driving speaker” so no one can predict/guess about the sound of Goebel/Lamm without listening.
A big 500w/8ohm high feedback solidstate amplifier can drive paper driver of audio note AN-E 92db but the sound is awful.
Numbers in specs are not the whole story.

Stereophile :
Göbel specifies the Divin Marquis's sensitivity as 92dB/W/m; my estimate was a little lower, at a still-high 89.5dB(B)/2.83V/m. The Divin Marquis's impedance is specified as 4 ohms with a minimum value of 3.4 ohms at 95Hz.

it means the Gobel sensitivity is 86.5db/8ohm

 

[bonzo75]

At least on this track the Kharma is sounding underdriven.

 

[gian60]

kharma sounded underdriven also in Munich with Koda that has much power