Lamm ML3 + LL1, at last!

[morricab]

I am happy to agree to disagree, but I would not be comfortable driving a 95dB sensitive speaker with only 32 watts. I personally prefer more "headroom" than that.

That's why I suggested the Majestic at 98dB sensitivity.

This plenty of power in actual practice.

 

[andromedaaudio]

As for e-zines, there is greater flexibilty for both the writer and the editor. The now 18 year-old M1.2 Ref remains unchanged since its launch in 2003. I reviewed it for The Audio Beat in 2015:

Incredible aint it , Boulder is another one of those brands so are a couple others .

I think stereophile is a good magazine , with TAS i dont have much in common, its more of an advertisement magazine then a review magazine imo , may be they have changed over the years i dont know .

I do have favourite reviewers probably because they like the same gear as i like , i m not all skeptical , i just think readers should read a bit between the lines and not be all fundamental about it .
15 years ago i bought equipment of the Geman bestenliste / stereo magazine

Marc mickaelson / CAT amps , he does use Lamm as well ( but no Lamm Set possible on the latest wilsons i m afraid )

Wilson Audio Chronosonic XVX Loudspeakers and Subsonic Subwoofers - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com

read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system

www.theaudiobeat.com

 

[morricab]

I ve never heard this particular combo , but high overall speaker impedance would likely be the answer .
( i ve read somewhere once that kharma uses series filters )
Also i think long throw heavy " out of phase " woofers in general are particularly dificult for Sets to control as david already stated.
I m not saying i think the wilson ( focal audiom) woofers XLF , X2 are bad woofers though

The original X1 worked quite well with SET but it was an easier load and higher sensitivity than newer generations of this Wilson speaker.

 

[christoph]

Divin Noblesse:
Impedance

nominal 4 Ohm
Impedance minimum in single wiring 3,8 Ohm at 100 Hz

So for bi wirable versions should we expect something different?

So the Noblesse is very benign
IF there are no evil phase shifts

 

[tima]

I do have favourite reviewers probably because they like the same gear as i like , i m not all skeptical , i just think readers should read a bit between the lines and not be all fundamental about it .
...
Marc mickaelson / CAT amps , he does use Lamm as well ( but no Lamm set possible on the latest wilsons i m afraid )

I agree about reading between the lines, but with a good review - one with clear straightforward prose - you should not need to. It helps to have some familiarity with the reviewer over time. The ones that have been around for a while tend to be credible.

Marc was my editor at SoundStage and thenThe Audio Beat. He used Wilson X2 Alexandrias to review the ML3, ~13 years ago when they first came out. He has written about (almost?) every Wilson and Lamm product, often writing the very first review of a new product.

 

[christoph]

Thank you Francisco. I think I know what you mean. I’ve listened to the ML2 and the M1.1 pretty extensively but on different speakers with very different requirements. They are both superb amplifiers but certainly suited for different speakers.

Which one did you like more?

 

[ddk]

The original X1 worked quite well with SET but it was an easier load and higher sensitivity than newer generations of this Wilson speaker.

The 18 watt ML2 easily drove them, later Wilsons present a more difficult load.

david

 

[bonzo75]

I agree about reading between the lines, but with a good review - one with clear straightforward prose - you should not need to. It helps to have some familiarity with the reviewer over time. The ones that have been around for a while tend to be credible.

Marc was my editor at SoundStage and thenThe Audio Beat. He used Wilson X2 Alexandrias to review the ML3, ~13 years ago when they first came out. He has written about (almost?) every Wilson and Lamm product, often writing the very first review of a new product.

He used a speaker it couldn't drive properly to review the amp?

 

[tima]

He used a speaker it couldn't drive properly to review the amp?

I have not heard that combination, but I gave the link - read and see what you think.

 

[bonzo75]

For one I believe that Kharma's sensitivity figures are more honest than some others. Probably the impedance is another factor but one of the main contributors to the magic is Kharma's bass quality. Unlike Wilson's large, heavy slow woofers that without a large amount of current are always slightly behind the mid and high drivers playing catch up Kharma's 11" Omega F Drivers are extremely light and fast. Music happens at high speed big slow drivers will never sound natural.

I spec'd the Midi Grand Exquisites with F Drivers in place of the usual Kevlar drivers they come with.

david

Very spot on Wilson description

 

[morricab]

THe old X1 was quite SET friendly:

Sensitivity & Loading: Checked under various weightings, the X-1's sensitivity checked out spot on target at 95dB for an 8 ohm watt (2.83V) at 1m. Its clean "attack" and good midrange and treble directivity could make this speaker appear subjectively even louder than this.

In the event, the Wilson presents a relatively easy load to an amplifier (fig.6). It's not quite classifiable as an "8 ohm" loudspeaker, which is defined as having a minimum magnitude of 6.4 ohms, though it comes close. For example, in music's main power band (120Hz-10kHz), the loading does not fall below 6 ohms, and averages 7.3 ohms. The magnitude does drop from 5 ohms at 15kHz to 3.2 ohms at 20kHz

Minimum impedance of 5 ohms and a true 95db...no wonder it worked well with KR Audio SETs I tried on a pair (both MKI and MKIII versions).

 

[KeithR]

took a look at this awhile ago, but Gobel doesn't appear SET friendly (h/t JA):

Göbel specifies the Divin Marquis's sensitivity as 92dB/W/m; my estimate was a little lower, at a still-high 89.5dB(B)/2.83V/m. The Divin Marquis's impedance is specified as 4 ohms with a minimum value of 3.4 ohms at 95Hz. The impedance magnitude (fig.1, solid trace) remains between 4 and 6 ohms for almost the entire audioband, with a minimum value of 2.9 ohms between 83Hz and 99Hz. The electrical phase angle (dashed trace) is generally low, but there is also a current-hungry combination of 5 ohms and a phase angle of –45° at 26Hz. I used the formula in a 1994 JAES paper by Eric Benjamin to calculate what UK writer Keith Howard has called the "equivalent peak dissipation resistance" (EPDR, footnote 1). The Divin Marquis has minimum EPDRs of 1.77 ohms at 25Hz and 1.53 ohms between 53Hz and 57Hz. Though the EPDR is close to 4 ohms in the midrange and treble, this Göbel loudspeaker will work best with amplifiers that are comfortable driving loads below 4 ohms.

You basically have AG Trios as a modern, SOTA alternative.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The X 1 s are indeed very easy .

Mine are very easy in the bass region they stay above 5 ohm , with a 3,5 ohm minimum at 10 khz
Efficiency is a 93- 94 db average, i think it ll be no problem even with the ML 2 s .
I design/ do all the measurements for safety with a 2 times 10 watt class A transistor amp and it perfectly controls the woofers .
When clamping /changing cables while designing a X over , you dont want a clamp to come loose and accidentally short cut the CAT tube amp
The Zanden 300 B SET with 8 watts was not enough to control the woofers good .
Lamm has serious transformers which also doesnt hurt

 

[morricab]

took a look at this awhile ago, but Gobel doesn't appear SET friendly (h/t JA):

Göbel specifies the Divin Marquis's sensitivity as 92dB/W/m; my estimate was a little lower, at a still-high 89.5dB(B)/2.83V/m. The Divin Marquis's impedance is specified as 4 ohms with a minimum value of 3.4 ohms at 95Hz. The impedance magnitude (fig.1, solid trace) remains between 4 and 6 ohms for almost the entire audioband, with a minimum value of 2.9 ohms between 83Hz and 99Hz. The electrical phase angle (dashed trace) is generally low, but there is also a current-hungry combination of 5 ohms and a phase angle of –45° at 26Hz. I used the formula in a 1994 JAES paper by Eric Benjamin to calculate what UK writer Keith Howard has called the "equivalent peak dissipation resistance" (EPDR, footnote 1). The Divin Marquis has minimum EPDRs of 1.77 ohms at 25Hz and 1.53 ohms between 53Hz and 57Hz. Though the EPDR is close to 4 ohms in the midrange and treble, this Göbel loudspeaker will work best with amplifiers that are comfortable driving loads below 4 ohms.

You basically have AG Trios as a modern, SOTA alternative.

No not really the only alternative...

 

[morricab]

The X 1 s are indeed very easy .

Mine are very easy in the bass region they stay above 5 ohm , with a 3,5 ohm minimum at 10 khz
Efficiency is a 93- 94 db average, i think it ll be no problem even with the ML 2 s .
I design/ do all the measurements for safety with a 2 times 10 watt class A transistor amp and it perfectly controls the woofers .
When clamping /changing cables while designing a X over , you dont want a clamp to come loose and accidentally short cut the CAT tube amp
The Zanden 300 B SET with 8 watts was not enough to control the woofers good .
Lamm has serious transformers which also doesnt hurt
View attachment 76991

You’re up in the Netherlands, right? Check out Aries Cerat on your speakers...every bit as much grunt as the CAT but SET...

 

[andromedaaudio]

You’re up in the Netherlands, right? Check out Aries Cerat on your speakers...every bit as much grunt as the CAT but SET...

Im actually now in hungary for a project , i live temporarily in belgium , i hope to be back in holland next year .
As you know people from belgium cant even cross borders , are you teasing me morricab

Ps are those aries cerat s in a shop / listeningroom ??
Set on itself doesnt interest me , im just interested in sound , whatever technology

 

[PeterA]

Which one did you like more?

That is hard to say because they were in completely different contexts. Different systems in different rooms.

With difficult to drive speakers I would prefer the hybrid. It sounded fantastic on a pair of hard to drive speakers. With high-efficiency speakers, I would prefer the 18 W SET. That is a slice of heaven.

 

[morricab]

There is a Belgian distributor for Aries Cerat (Ultrasone). Check him out.

 

[microstrip]

For one I believe that Kharma's sensitivity figures are more honest than some others. (...)

david

Wilson Audio sensitivity figures have been properly measured by reviewers more than once in several countries. As far as I could see Karma always shows their Midi Grand Exquisites with amplifiers of more than 100W. Room and listening position are an important factor when considering power needs - I enjoy listening at around 12 feet from the speakers in a long room, it needs more power than close listening.

(...) Marc was my editor at SoundStage and thenThe Audio Beat. He used Wilson X2 Alexandrias to review the ML3, ~13 years ago when they first came out. He has written about (almost?) every Wilson and Lamm product, often writing the very first review of a new product.

Yes, he wrote an enthusiastic review of the ML3 with the Alexandria's. He was extremely pleased with bass depth and dynamics, no complains complains about "large, heavy slow woofers" .
I owned the X2 before moving to XLFs and measured impedance and sensitivity of both speakers - quite similar, although I found that the XLF was sonically much better. It was why I had some expectations on the pairing - when I asked advice in WBF before buying the Lamm ML3 most people were extremely favorable.

 

[bonzo75]

Wilson Audio sensitivity figures have been properly measured by reviewers more than once in several countries. As far as I could see Karma always shows their Midi Grand Exquisites with amplifiers of more than 100W. Room and listening position are an important factor when considering power needs - I enjoy listening at around 12 feet from the speakers in a long room, it needs more power than close listening.



Yes, he wrote an enthusiastic review of the ML3 with the Alexandria's. He was extremely pleased with bass depth and dynamics, no complains complains about "large, heavy slow woofers" .
I owned the X2 before moving to XLFs and measured impedance and sensitivity of both speakers - quite similar, although I found that the XLF was sonically much better. It was why I had some expectations on the pairing - when I asked advice in WBF before buying the Lamm ML3 most people were extremely favorable.

You will always find people who give the advice you are looking for. It is good practice to ignore those who opine to the contrary