LampizatOr Golden Atlantic + TRP

[wisnon]

Sorry guys but I think you are mixing up things here
The TRP can have different digital engines like the r2r or the e53 or the older 54something engine and this does NOT limit the TRPs tube rolling capabilities!

I think you are assuming, that the R2R IS the Atlantic but it is just the digital engine that can sit in any of the DACs, except the Pacific that incorporates the e57 engine exclusively

Yes, I asked Lukasz directly and he thinks the e5 beats R2R hands down. I think Al has an R2R TRP. IIRC he did the compare and subjectively thinks the PCM is better on e53 and DSD slightly better on R2R.

 

[perfusionist]

Interesting, I just had a conversation with Andrzej (one of the technicians I think) and he said its a matter of personal preference. He used the word "organic" and said if I like vocals a lot, I might like the R2R better. He also said that the main reason why Lampizator went to the E53 was to accommodate DSD 512, as the R2R was limited to DSD 256.

 

[highstream]

I wonder if Lampi opinions are be based on the tubes they provide.

 

[wisnon]

Not to me, I speak to him directly from time to time. Lukasz favourites change over time, as they too have to roll and evaluate outcomes there in their labs. Tube choice is subjective and if you ask 2 people and you get 3 opinions. lol

For any tube manufacturer, there will always be an issue of sourcing stock tubes, I imagine its easier for people to source their own rolling tubes. I just hope that the stock tubes are decent starter pack.

 

[highstream]

What I meant is what a piece of tube gear sounds like to the developer may be very different than what it sounds like in user hands after some tube rolling. The question is on what basis the developer or tech is making their judgment. Typically, I would think it would have to be based on what they are sending out, unless you dug deeper into their personal experimentation. It was the case rather substantially with the TRP in tone (and otherwise) between what came and what came to use. And it's been even more so with a Supratek preamp, where the modest warmth has remained while I've ignored the developer's admonitions that it wasn't worth changing the power tubes (Sovtek version of 6L6GC) and that it was impossible to improve on the umbilical, the latter stated as a vehement threat to void the warranty (they didn't).

 

[leftside]

@leftside In other words you are saying you like the trp engine (newer) better than r2r. Is that right? Would you say the difference is huge or subtle? Was it discussed on this same thread?

Yes the TRP engine (newer) is better than the older R2R engine. I was very skeptical (see my earlier posts before I had the TRP) but still purchased the TRP as I have a lot of compatible tubes. I would say the difference is "noticeable". My friend was at my house with his kid the same day I had the TRP up and running (I sometimes help his kid out with computer stuff). I demoed both DACs with some of the music that the kid likes. My older GA first. The kid liked that a lot. Then the TRP. The kids eyes literally lit up and my friend immediately said "no sorry we can't afford that - maybe in 10 years when he (me) does another upgrade".

I'd describe tube rolling with the TRP to be "subtle". Originally, I didn't expect any differences with tube rolling in this DAC at all (apart from maybe gain) based on the design and the way tubes are used, but I was wrong. There are subtle differences with some of the tubes.

 

[leftside]

You do have a regular Atlantic Plus (4P1L tubes only) with the R2R engine and an Atlantic TRP with the e53 engine and full tube rolling possibilities with pentodes EL34/KT66/77/88 ans so forth, correct?

Correct. Older balanced Golden Atlantic Plus (4 * 4P1L tubes only and 1 rectifier) with the R2R engine. And a single ended Golden Atlantic TRP with the e53 and full tube rolling possibilities with pentodes 2 * EL34/KT66/77/88 and 1 rectifier.

 

[perfusionist]

So I've made my decision. Have asked Poland to change my GA TRP engine 53 to R2R. Here's some of my thoughts behind my decision.

My music is mainly Jazz and female vocal jazz and in my opinion (with my components) I feel SPDIF sounds much better than USB. With my limited knowledge, I am convinced that an asynchronous USB DAC throws away all the reclocking done by the previous devices. I am using a Denafrips GAIA DDC and I believe their DDC implementation is fantastic. In fact I've had (still have some) several DDCs including
1. Antipodes P2
2. Empirical audio off Ramp 5 with Turbo clock and Dynamo LPS
3. Schiit Eitr
and have always been a fan of SPDIF input. However SPDIF is limited to 192 Khz and I want to utilize the DACs capabilities of processing 384 Khz and DSD 512. I am using HQPlayer and upsampling everything to DSD 256 (DSD 512 is too much processing for my Antipodes CX)

Hence the decision to install an I2S input and Lukasz said it's possible and my GA TRP took a trip to Poland.

Upon receipt, Andrzej, one of the technicians got back to me with some more info. I had to sacrifice the BNC input to make room for the RJ45 socket which has to be close to the USB Input. He also made me aware the Engine 53 inside the GA TRP is very much different than the Denafrips Gaia and the input-output relationship between the 2 devices are not compatible enough to play DSD files.

The following is a paraphrase from Andrzej (Super nice guy btw, I spoke to him over phone)

"The DAC chip in the GA TRP will not play DSD from the external I2S stream. Currently when playing from USB the chip gets I2S stream (4 signals) and additionally 5 other signals carrying the DSD and muting information, 9 signals in total being sent from USB to the DAC chip. When sending I2S (4 signals) to the same DAC chip from external (RJ cable connected to the streamer) we lack those 5 signals necessary to play DSD and eliminate the pops (muting signal). There could be a solution to meet your expectations - change the DAC board in Atlantic into R2R type, which needs only 3 signals from USB or streamer - 3 signal included in I2S stream, no Masterclock needed. That solution should cover PCM up to 384k and DSD up to 256x, both from streamer and USB as well, and should be tested before implementation in your DAC. As for sounding it's rather the question of taste. Functionally your current DAC covers DSD 512x. On the other hand R2R has higher signal level by ca 60% which makes signal/noise ratio better. Another advantage is O DC voltage which allows to eliminate interstage caps before the tubes. There is MCLK out from denafrips, but the DAC will not neet it. R2R recovers the MCLK from incoming BCLK, LRCK and BCLK signals. R2R does not limit tube rolling and does not eliminate the rectifier tubes"

I also gathered some more info:

1. Lampizator will use a Soekris DAC R2R module. Looks like it will convert DSD signals to PCM before decoding.
2. The I2S LVCMOS is extremely sensitive to noise. Hence the cable that connects the 2 devices should be super short (25 cm). Andrzej said he used a 0.5m cable and it was quite unstable and highly recommended I use a 25cm cable. So did Alvin from Denafrips. I reached out to Revelation audio labs to create a custom cable with the following config:

Source: Denafrips Gaia

Destination: Lampizator I2S input:





The cable is being made by revelation audio labs in consultation with Steve Nugent from Empirical audio.
Now I have to place the the DAC and the Denafrips GAIA super close to each other (with their backs facing each other) so I can connect them together with this super short 25cm cable.

Last but not least, Andrzej also suggested that my output caps are 2.2uF Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO SilverGold Oil. If I wanted something better he recommended replacing them with Pure Copper 1uF, which they use currently for almost all units. They simply sound better with better mids, only Duelund overtake them their view.So decided to do that upgrade as well.

Well, its an experiment.
It could be a complete genius way to pair these 2 devices and get the greatest sound possible or it could be a complete failure and a waste of ~ 2 grand. Lol. I am in knee deep, so no backing out now. I'll keep you posted once I receive the Lampi from Poland.

 

[gestalt]

So I've made my decision. Have asked Poland to change my GA TRP engine 53 to R2R. Here's some of my thoughts behind my decision.

My music is mainly Jazz and female vocal jazz and in my opinion (with my components) I feel SPDIF sounds much better than USB. With my limited knowledge, I am convinced that an asynchronous USB DAC throws away all the reclocking done by the previous devices. I am using a Denafrips GAIA DDC and I believe their DDC implementation is fantastic. In fact I've had (still have some) several DDCs including
1. Antipodes P2
2. Empirical audio off Ramp 5 with Turbo clock and Dynamo LPS
3. Schiit Eitr
and have always been a fan of SPDIF input. However SPDIF is limited to 192 Khz and I want to utilize the DACs capabilities of processing 384 Khz and DSD 512. I am using HQPlayer and upsampling everything to DSD 256 (DSD 512 is too much processing for my Antipodes CX)

Hence the decision to install an I2S input and Lukasz said it's possible and my GA TRP took a trip to Poland.

Upon receipt, Andrzej, one of the technicians got back to me with some more info. I had to sacrifice the BNC input to make room for the RJ45 socket which has to be close to the USB Input. He also made me aware the Engine 53 inside the GA TRP is very much different than the Denafrips Gaia and the input-output relationship between the 2 devices are not compatible enough to play DSD files.

The following is a paraphrase from Andrzej (Super nice guy btw, I spoke to him over phone)

"The DAC chip in the GA TRP will not play DSD from the external I2S stream. Currently when playing from USB the chip gets I2S stream (4 signals) and additionally 5 other signals carrying the DSD and muting information, 9 signals in total being sent from USB to the DAC chip. When sending I2S (4 signals) to the same DAC chip from external (RJ cable connected to the streamer) we lack those 5 signals necessary to play DSD and eliminate the pops (muting signal). There could be a solution to meet your expectations - change the DAC board in Atlantic into R2R type, which needs only 3 signals from USB or streamer - 3 signal included in I2S stream, no Masterclock needed. That solution should cover PCM up to 384k and DSD up to 256x, both from streamer and USB as well, and should be tested before implementation in your DAC. As for sounding it's rather the question of taste. Functionally your current DAC covers DSD 512x. On the other hand R2R has higher signal level by ca 60% which makes signal/noise ratio better. Another advantage is O DC voltage which allows to eliminate interstage caps before the tubes. There is MCLK out from denafrips, but the DAC will not neet it. R2R recovers the MCLK from incoming BCLK, LRCK and BCLK signals. R2R does not limit tube rolling and does not eliminate the rectifier tubes"

I also gathered some more info:

1. Lampizator will use a Soekris DAC R2R module. Looks like it will convert DSD signals to PCM before decoding.
2. The I2S LVCMOS is extremely sensitive to noise. Hence the cable that connects the 2 devices should be super short (25 cm). Andrzej said he used a 0.5m cable and it was quite unstable and highly recommended I use a 25cm cable. So did Alvin from Denafrips. I reached out to Revelation audio labs to create a custom cable with the following config:

Source: Denafrips Gaia
View attachment 75209
Destination: Lampizator I2S input:

View attachment 75210



The cable is being made by revelation audio labs in consultation with Steve Nugent from Empirical audio.
Now I have to place the the DAC and the Denafrips GAIA super close to each other (with their backs facing each other) so I can connect them together with this super short 25cm cable.

Last but not least, Andrzej also suggested that my output caps are 2.2uF Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO SilverGold Oil. If I wanted something better he recommended replacing them with Pure Copper 1uF, which they use currently for almost all units. They simply sound better with better mids, only Duelund overtake them their view.So decided to do that upgrade as well.

Well, its an experiment.
It could be a complete genius way to pair these 2 devices and get the greatest sound possible or it could be a complete failure and a waste of ~ 2 grand. Lol. I am in knee deep, so no backing out now. I'll keep you posted once I receive the Lampi from Poland.

Excited to hear how it sounds!

 

[wisnon]

It sounds like a logic based choice.

 

[leftside]

So I've made my decision. Have asked Poland to change my GA TRP engine 53 to R2R. Here's some of my thoughts behind my decision.

My music is mainly Jazz and female vocal jazz and in my opinion (with my components) I feel SPDIF sounds much better than USB. With my limited knowledge, I am convinced that an asynchronous USB DAC throws away all the reclocking done by the previous devices. I am using a Denafrips GAIA DDC and I believe their DDC implementation is fantastic. In fact I've had (still have some) several DDCs including
1. Antipodes P2
2. Empirical audio off Ramp 5 with Turbo clock and Dynamo LPS
3. Schiit Eitr
and have always been a fan of SPDIF input. However SPDIF is limited to 192 Khz and I want to utilize the DACs capabilities of processing 384 Khz and DSD 512. I am using HQPlayer and upsampling everything to DSD 256 (DSD 512 is too much processing for my Antipodes CX)

Hence the decision to install an I2S input and Lukasz said it's possible and my GA TRP took a trip to Poland.

Upon receipt, Andrzej, one of the technicians got back to me with some more info. I had to sacrifice the BNC input to make room for the RJ45 socket which has to be close to the USB Input. He also made me aware the Engine 53 inside the GA TRP is very much different than the Denafrips Gaia and the input-output relationship between the 2 devices are not compatible enough to play DSD files.

The following is a paraphrase from Andrzej (Super nice guy btw, I spoke to him over phone)

"The DAC chip in the GA TRP will not play DSD from the external I2S stream. Currently when playing from USB the chip gets I2S stream (4 signals) and additionally 5 other signals carrying the DSD and muting information, 9 signals in total being sent from USB to the DAC chip. When sending I2S (4 signals) to the same DAC chip from external (RJ cable connected to the streamer) we lack those 5 signals necessary to play DSD and eliminate the pops (muting signal). There could be a solution to meet your expectations - change the DAC board in Atlantic into R2R type, which needs only 3 signals from USB or streamer - 3 signal included in I2S stream, no Masterclock needed. That solution should cover PCM up to 384k and DSD up to 256x, both from streamer and USB as well, and should be tested before implementation in your DAC. As for sounding it's rather the question of taste. Functionally your current DAC covers DSD 512x. On the other hand R2R has higher signal level by ca 60% which makes signal/noise ratio better. Another advantage is O DC voltage which allows to eliminate interstage caps before the tubes. There is MCLK out from denafrips, but the DAC will not neet it. R2R recovers the MCLK from incoming BCLK, LRCK and BCLK signals. R2R does not limit tube rolling and does not eliminate the rectifier tubes"

I also gathered some more info:

1. Lampizator will use a Soekris DAC R2R module. Looks like it will convert DSD signals to PCM before decoding.
2. The I2S LVCMOS is extremely sensitive to noise. Hence the cable that connects the 2 devices should be super short (25 cm). Andrzej said he used a 0.5m cable and it was quite unstable and highly recommended I use a 25cm cable. So did Alvin from Denafrips. I reached out to Revelation audio labs to create a custom cable with the following config:

Source: Denafrips Gaia
View attachment 75209
Destination: Lampizator I2S input:

View attachment 75210



The cable is being made by revelation audio labs in consultation with Steve Nugent from Empirical audio.
Now I have to place the the DAC and the Denafrips GAIA super close to each other (with their backs facing each other) so I can connect them together with this super short 25cm cable.

Last but not least, Andrzej also suggested that my output caps are 2.2uF Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO SilverGold Oil. If I wanted something better he recommended replacing them with Pure Copper 1uF, which they use currently for almost all units. They simply sound better with better mids, only Duelund overtake them their view.So decided to do that upgrade as well.

Well, its an experiment.
It could be a complete genius way to pair these 2 devices and get the greatest sound possible or it could be a complete failure and a waste of ~ 2 grand. Lol. I am in knee deep, so no backing out now. I'll keep you posted once I receive the Lampi from Poland.

This is so you can incorporate a DDC into the chain with your Atlantic?

GAIA | Denafrips

GAIA is a DDC product that can accept multiple audio source inputs simultaneously.

www.denafrips.com

 

[HungarianPal]

1. Lampizator will use a Soekris DAC R2R module. Looks like it will convert DSD signals to PCM before decoding.

So it is going to be a different R2R board than they used in the early Atlantic and GG DACs? As far as I know DSD in those were not converted to PCM. Here is a diagram I am copying from a review of the original Atlantic:

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

So I've made my decision. Have asked Poland to change my GA TRP engine 53 to R2R. Here's some of my thoughts behind my decision.

My music is mainly Jazz and female vocal jazz and in my opinion (with my components) I feel SPDIF sounds much better than USB. With my limited knowledge, I am convinced that an asynchronous USB DAC throws away all the reclocking done by the previous devices. I am using a Denafrips GAIA DDC and I believe their DDC implementation is fantastic. In fact I've had (still have some) several DDCs including
1. Antipodes P2
2. Empirical audio off Ramp 5 with Turbo clock and Dynamo LPS
3. Schiit Eitr
and have always been a fan of SPDIF input. However SPDIF is limited to 192 Khz and I want to utilize the DACs capabilities of processing 384 Khz and DSD 512. I am using HQPlayer and upsampling everything to DSD 256 (DSD 512 is too much processing for my Antipodes CX)

Hence the decision to install an I2S input and Lukasz said it's possible and my GA TRP took a trip to Poland.

Upon receipt, Andrzej, one of the technicians got back to me with some more info. I had to sacrifice the BNC input to make room for the RJ45 socket which has to be close to the USB Input. He also made me aware the Engine 53 inside the GA TRP is very much different than the Denafrips Gaia and the input-output relationship between the 2 devices are not compatible enough to play DSD files.

The following is a paraphrase from Andrzej (Super nice guy btw, I spoke to him over phone)

"The DAC chip in the GA TRP will not play DSD from the external I2S stream. Currently when playing from USB the chip gets I2S stream (4 signals) and additionally 5 other signals carrying the DSD and muting information, 9 signals in total being sent from USB to the DAC chip. When sending I2S (4 signals) to the same DAC chip from external (RJ cable connected to the streamer) we lack those 5 signals necessary to play DSD and eliminate the pops (muting signal). There could be a solution to meet your expectations - change the DAC board in Atlantic into R2R type, which needs only 3 signals from USB or streamer - 3 signal included in I2S stream, no Masterclock needed. That solution should cover PCM up to 384k and DSD up to 256x, both from streamer and USB as well, and should be tested before implementation in your DAC. As for sounding it's rather the question of taste. Functionally your current DAC covers DSD 512x. On the other hand R2R has higher signal level by ca 60% which makes signal/noise ratio better. Another advantage is O DC voltage which allows to eliminate interstage caps before the tubes. There is MCLK out from denafrips, but the DAC will not neet it. R2R recovers the MCLK from incoming BCLK, LRCK and BCLK signals. R2R does not limit tube rolling and does not eliminate the rectifier tubes"

I also gathered some more info:

1. Lampizator will use a Soekris DAC R2R module. Looks like it will convert DSD signals to PCM before decoding.
2. The I2S LVCMOS is extremely sensitive to noise. Hence the cable that connects the 2 devices should be super short (25 cm). Andrzej said he used a 0.5m cable and it was quite unstable and highly recommended I use a 25cm cable. So did Alvin from Denafrips. I reached out to Revelation audio labs to create a custom cable with the following config:

Source: Denafrips Gaia
View attachment 75209
Destination: Lampizator I2S input:

View attachment 75210



The cable is being made by revelation audio labs in consultation with Steve Nugent from Empirical audio.
Now I have to place the the DAC and the Denafrips GAIA super close to each other (with their backs facing each other) so I can connect them together with this super short 25cm cable.

Last but not least, Andrzej also suggested that my output caps are 2.2uF Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO SilverGold Oil. If I wanted something better he recommended replacing them with Pure Copper 1uF, which they use currently for almost all units. They simply sound better with better mids, only Duelund overtake them their view.So decided to do that upgrade as well.

Well, its an experiment.
It could be a complete genius way to pair these 2 devices and get the greatest sound possible or it could be a complete failure and a waste of ~ 2 grand. Lol. I am in knee deep, so no backing out now. I'll keep you posted once I receive the Lampi from Poland.

It seems like a reasonable decision to me. It does not sound like a waste, more like an investment. Sure, it is easier to make a decision if you can hear the systems you mentioned one after another, but given the circumstances it is the most rational choice.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

So I've made my decision. Have asked Poland to change my GA TRP engine 53 to R2R. Here's some of my thoughts behind my decision.

My music is mainly Jazz and female vocal jazz and in my opinion (with my components) I feel SPDIF sounds much better than USB. With my limited knowledge, I am convinced that an asynchronous USB DAC throws away all the reclocking done by the previous devices. I am using a Denafrips GAIA DDC and I believe their DDC implementation is fantastic. In fact I've had (still have some) several DDCs including
1. Antipodes P2
2. Empirical audio off Ramp 5 with Turbo clock and Dynamo LPS
3. Schiit Eitr
and have always been a fan of SPDIF input. However SPDIF is limited to 192 Khz and I want to utilize the DACs capabilities of processing 384 Khz and DSD 512. I am using HQPlayer and upsampling everything to DSD 256 (DSD 512 is too much processing for my Antipodes CX)

Hence the decision to install an I2S input and Lukasz said it's possible and my GA TRP took a trip to Poland.

Upon receipt, Andrzej, one of the technicians got back to me with some more info. I had to sacrifice the BNC input to make room for the RJ45 socket which has to be close to the USB Input. He also made me aware the Engine 53 inside the GA TRP is very much different than the Denafrips Gaia and the input-output relationship between the 2 devices are not compatible enough to play DSD files.

The following is a paraphrase from Andrzej (Super nice guy btw, I spoke to him over phone)

"The DAC chip in the GA TRP will not play DSD from the external I2S stream. Currently when playing from USB the chip gets I2S stream (4 signals) and additionally 5 other signals carrying the DSD and muting information, 9 signals in total being sent from USB to the DAC chip. When sending I2S (4 signals) to the same DAC chip from external (RJ cable connected to the streamer) we lack those 5 signals necessary to play DSD and eliminate the pops (muting signal). There could be a solution to meet your expectations - change the DAC board in Atlantic into R2R type, which needs only 3 signals from USB or streamer - 3 signal included in I2S stream, no Masterclock needed. That solution should cover PCM up to 384k and DSD up to 256x, both from streamer and USB as well, and should be tested before implementation in your DAC. As for sounding it's rather the question of taste. Functionally your current DAC covers DSD 512x. On the other hand R2R has higher signal level by ca 60% which makes signal/noise ratio better. Another advantage is O DC voltage which allows to eliminate interstage caps before the tubes. There is MCLK out from denafrips, but the DAC will not neet it. R2R recovers the MCLK from incoming BCLK, LRCK and BCLK signals. R2R does not limit tube rolling and does not eliminate the rectifier tubes"

I also gathered some more info:

1. Lampizator will use a Soekris DAC R2R module. Looks like it will convert DSD signals to PCM before decoding.
2. The I2S LVCMOS is extremely sensitive to noise. Hence the cable that connects the 2 devices should be super short (25 cm). Andrzej said he used a 0.5m cable and it was quite unstable and highly recommended I use a 25cm cable. So did Alvin from Denafrips. I reached out to Revelation audio labs to create a custom cable with the following config:

Source: Denafrips Gaia
View attachment 75209
Destination: Lampizator I2S input:

View attachment 75210



The cable is being made by revelation audio labs in consultation with Steve Nugent from Empirical audio.
Now I have to place the the DAC and the Denafrips GAIA super close to each other (with their backs facing each other) so I can connect them together with this super short 25cm cable.

Last but not least, Andrzej also suggested that my output caps are 2.2uF Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO SilverGold Oil. If I wanted something better he recommended replacing them with Pure Copper 1uF, which they use currently for almost all units. They simply sound better with better mids, only Duelund overtake them their view.So decided to do that upgrade as well.

Well, its an experiment.
It could be a complete genius way to pair these 2 devices and get the greatest sound possible or it could be a complete failure and a waste of ~ 2 grand. Lol. I am in knee deep, so no backing out now. I'll keep you posted once I receive the Lampi from Poland.

25cm is not long for a cable, but is it really not enough to connect them placing one on top of another? You'll probably know once you get it.

 

[perfusionist]

25cm is not long for a cable, but is it really not enough to connect them placing one on top of another? You'll probably know once you get it.

Yes its not long. My plan is to place the 2 devices with their backs facing each other and connect them together.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

Exactly, it already sounds like an original setup, why not make the layout unique as well.

 

[perfusionist]

What are your DAC's high and low output voltage levels? And what do you prefer to use? High or low?

 

[perfusionist]

Upgrades done! Should be on its way to Boston next week:

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

looks great. Take a picture of how you placed it in your setup.

 

[perfusionist]

looks great. Take a picture how you placed it in your setup.

Will do once I receive it!