Latest Spectral CD "processor" (aka a CD player)

[Old Listener]

The risk isn't a technical one

A point that people should bear in mind is that it is "dangerous" to hold data, the music on a server, in a form that is forever easily erasible. There are nightmares occurring now in the scientific world where precious scientific data is stored on read/write media which can no longer be easily read for various reasons, look at the mini panic now about significant master tapes in the audio world.

Backing up computer data is easier now than it has been in the past. For $ 90, you can buy a 2TB USB hard drive on newegg.com. Buy two and you can keep an onsite backup and an offsite backup. My music collection takes about 700 GB at present. No sweat.

I still have all my important digital files that I first stored on 5 1/4" or 3 1/2" floppy disks. Moving the files to newer digital storage media was trivial. Of course, I didn't wait until I didn't have access to working floppy drive of the right specifications.

The problem that you describe isn't a technical one; it is human inattention.

You used the phrase "forever easily erasible." Human error in erasing data or hardware/software malfunction is a different problem from that of media failure or media obsolescence. To guard against unwanted changes to the data, you need to archive files so that you can got back to previous versions if an unwanted change occurs and you find out about it later.

This is one reason that paper is a big winner, vinyl is also excellent, and CDs may in turn prove to be life savers down the track ...

In the real world, many organizations that have old paper records are busy transferring them to digital form. The benefit is much greater accessibility, reduced need for storage and protection against physical deterioration.

Bill

 

[fas42]

The problem that you describe isn't a technical one; it is human inattention.

And a bit beyond that. Yes, it is not in a pure sense a technical issue, it is to do with this strange thing, the human condition. One thing I learned after being in the computing game for over 30 years is that quite often the weakest element in the system was the archiving or backup facility! Over and over again, in my personal experience, and so often in the media it is also reported: the main system goes down, and lo and behold the backup fails!!

Why? Because it's something that happens in the background, you worry about it once to set it up, but you don't then really, really test it on an ongoing basis to make sure it will actually work correctly, for the day when the need is really there. Good old Murphy's Law is a very, very powerful, ever present element in every recovery mechanism ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

As for ripped CDs being better and more the actual CD itself.. how do you know for fact the data corrected file is accurate?

I don't, but the only time I'm sure that the ripped, error-checked file is "better" than the CD is when the error-checking has filled in a drop out or skip on the CD. Is that filled space bit perfect? I don't know, but I do know that it's "better" than a skip or a drop out. At least it is to me. YMMV.

Tim

 

[mep]

I find it funny when digital lovers fight with each other instead of throwing rocks at the analog people.

 

[Old Listener]

One thing I learned after being in the computing game for over 30 years is that quite often the weakest element in the system was the archiving or backup facility! Over and over again, in my personal experience, and so often in the media it is also reported: the main system goes down, and lo and behold the backup fails!!

I've always advised that until you have verified that you can restore your data and get running again, you don't really have a backup plan.

Bill

 

[fas42]

I find it funny when digital lovers fight with each other instead of throwing rocks at the analog people.

And that's because ultimately there is no divide between the two, it's a false dichotomy to distinguish the camps: elements of understanding will be lost if you simply choose to take sides, and pick your champion for the battle. All digital processes from the point of view of the actual mechanism that is carrying the information is analogue in nature. And similarly for analogue: at a low level the actual physical media can be considered digital, something that is either on or off, a zero or one. A good example of the latter is the beloved tape on a R2R, the magnetic particles in the binder are all separate, individual lumps, each operating in isolation from the next, no nice, cosy continuity there ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

I've always advised that until you have verified that you can restore your data and get running again, you don't really have a backup plan.

Bill

And do you want to guess how many people who now rely on servers for their music have done that?

Frank

 

[microstrip]

This is a re-post of what I have written about, "lack of digital inputs" on the SDR4000SL.
To call a CD only player is a dinosaur is to believe the billions of CD produced are not worthy of their
sonic offering and the music they contain is irrelevant.

Think carefully about any new technology offering and how it might actually improve your
life rather than what that technological widget promises to offer.

The experience of using virtual media is inherently different than physical media.
The human brain develops a map of it's physical surroundings over time and usage.
This is why one can walk up to a shelf of CDs, books or other physical media and almost
instantly locate the object desired. In virtual media, one looks up the desired object via a
menu on screen. The experience is quite different and not always better for some users.

Other examples, try using a touch screen with your eyes closed. Not so easy to do?
Fighter jet control sticks have distinct finger buttons for specific operation, this is done to allow
the pilot to use these controls by feel (brain map) with no visual observation of these control buttons.

There was a time when dinosaurs were believed to be cold blooded.
In time, with more detailed study, improved research tools and understanding,
it was discovered that dinosaurs were warm blooded.
Much like the "Dinosaur CD" one day, a listener might discover sonic delights within them.
The SDR4000SL is an instrument that can allow such discoveries to be made.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The hard reality is CD disc players are far from a dead end product. Much like Vinyl, there are Billions of CDs in the world today and like Vinyl, many of those recordings are not going to be re-issued into a different media.

The common answer to this fact, simply rip the CD's into a music server and there is your complete music library at the touch of your iPad. In reality, it is far from being that simply.

What the Audiophile market simply does not understand is delivering the very best possible playback from historically significant recordings is important if you interest is in the music and not a visceral sonic experience or indulge in the latest digital playback fashion.

What I will say, the SDR4000SL has playback quality very similar to Hi res files. We know this from real world experience. What is wrong with a 44.1Khz CD player that has the ability to play back recordings with such sound quality?

Today, there are a large number of high quality Phonograph/Vinyl playback systems, why has the market decided Vinyl is worth the investment?

As long as CD's exist in the world of music, there will be a need for a high quality CD player that can extract the last bit of accurate information from these recordings.

The belief that high resolution files alone will cure all sonic ills is a fantasy driven by marketing. High quality sound reproduction is not that simple. As much as Audiophile's don't like the idea, high quality sound reproduction requires a complete system approach.

For those who enjoy mixing and matching their music system components, what is your point of reference/ How do you know for fact the resultant sound from your musical system is the actual sound that happened during any specific recording?

And no, there is no digital input on the SDR4000SL for a host of reasons. To accommodate this feature would completely alter the system configuration and compromise the system clock accuracy and noise in the overall system.

The SDR4000SL was not designed with features driven by marketing impulses, it is deigned to deliver the highest accuracy in playback of 44.1Khz CD's with good user ergonomics and nothing more.

Bernice

Bernice,

I applaud your post. You just synthesized what is common belief of many music lovers.

I highly consider the people who are now battling with music severs and HiRes - they are the beta testers of developments that will probably be of great significance in the future, even for me.

But currently when I arrive home after a day of work I do not want to use an iPad or similar to listen to my music. I just want to select a LP or CD the old way and play it.

I still remember how my room looked like after a few listening sessions when I was student, LP albums all around the floor until some authority would suggest ranging them ...

 

[Old Listener]

I find it funny when digital lovers fight with each other instead of throwing rocks at the analog people.

I'm not sure which digital lovers you are talking about.

You have started a number of exchanges with your crusades against measurements, CDs, digital technology, solid state and anybody who likes any of those approaches. If you get a few rocks back after you threw them, you don't have much to complain about.

Bill

 

[microstrip]

Just a naive question - if you buy virtual music from HDTracks or similar vendors and by any reason loose the file, can you download it again?

 

[mep]

I'm not sure which digital lovers you are talking about.

You have started a number of exchanges with your crusades against measurements, CDs, digital technology, solid state and anybody who likes any of those approaches. If you get a few rocks back after you threw them, you don't have much to complain about.

Bill

Why Bill, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I have no crusade(s) against measurements. You didn’t read my last thread obviously. I simply tried to make people understand the difference between specifications and measurements. OEMs are not providing measurements of their gear to the audiophiles that buy it. All you get is a specification sheet and that’s not the same as having the measurements that would prove the specifications listed have actually been met. In my job, I’m surrounded by engineers and electronic technicians and taking measurements is what we get paid for. I believe in good measurements-trust me.

I own 3 CD/SACD players and I have a music server that is part of my stereo system. So much for my crusade against digital.

As for solid state, I guess you missed where I sold my tube preamp and tube power amp and bought a Krell KBL and Krell KSA-250 which are currently back at Krell getting repaired and having all the old caps replaced. In the meantime, I’m using a Yamaha C2a preamp which I find to be outstanding and a pair of Phase Linear 400 series 2 amps using only one channel from each amp. So much for my crusade against solid state.

As for my original statement in this thread that caused you to post your little missive about me, I was simply referring to the digital lovers who still believe the highest fidelity from CD comes from listening to a super high-end player like the one that is the title of this thread vice those digital lovers that think the sound quality from CDs ripped to their servers sound better than any CD player. Am I missing something here or are you?

Any other misconceptions about me that I can clear up for you?

 

[Rupunzell]

Do you remember this SAE 5000A, for those who cannot stand ticks, pops, and noise from their vinyl play back_in the day?

http://www.hifiengine.com/manuals/sae/5000a.shtml

Is that the desired effect?

That data recovered disc data might be all filler to trick your brain/hearing into believing it is all fine and good even if the filler data is all wrong. To really know what is happening, all that data will need to go into a good editor and examined carefully. Then decisions as to what needs to be done can be done with some intelligence.

None of which is energy free, energy is required to make this correction or to re-create what was once lost.


Bernice

I don't, but the only time I'm sure that the ripped, error-checked file is "better" than the CD is when the error-checking has filled in a drop out or skip on the CD. Is that filled space bit perfect? I don't know, but I do know that it's "better" than a skip or a drop out. At least it is to me. YMMV.

Tim

 

[Rupunzell]

Early adopters are basically beta testers. Note the number of music server companies that have come and gone to date as just one examle. There will come a time when all the dust has settled and then it will be time to produce a product that is enduring and will be around for a while.

Example, Ferrari refused to build a mid-engine race car until that design concept has been well proven and inherent problems sorted out. It was not until these "beta" testers sorted out the concept enough that Ferrari produced the 250P.. Today, virtually any real race car has a mid-engine chassis.

Anyone remember how bad those early digital oscilloscopes were compared to what is sold today?

The technical problems with a music server trying to get truly high fidelity recording reproduction is not in data accuracy, it is else where and inherent to the fact the music server is a computer.


Bernice

I highly consider the people who are now battling with music severs and HiRes - they are the beta testers of developments that will probably be of great significance in the future, even for me.

But currently when I arrive home after a day of work I do not want to use an iPad or similar to listen to my music. I just want to select a LP or CD the old way and play it.

I still remember how my room looked like after a few listening sessions when I was student, LP albums all around the floor until some authority would suggest ranging them ...

 

[mep]

I will throw in my $.02 on the server vs. CD player. First of all, I don't own a *super* CD player. I have an older Sony ES-9000, a Denon 2800, and an Oppo whatever. The computer/music server I built running Foo Bar sounds better than any CD player I own. Would it sound better than one of the super CD players? I have no idea and don't pretend that I do. But I know that I won't be in the market for one because I do think they will go obsolete. Once I came to realize that you really can't buy CDs at brick and mortar stores that used to carry them, I saw the handwriting on the wall. And having said that, if you have a large collection of CDs and you have the money to invest in a super CD player and think it sounds better (and it might-again I don't know), there is nothing wrong with that approach.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Do you remember this SAE 5000A, for those who cannot stand ticks, pops, and noise from their vinyl play back_in the day?

http://www.hifiengine.com/manuals/sae/5000a.shtml

Is that the desired effect?

That data recovered disc data might be all filler to trick your brain/hearing into believing it is all fine and good even if the filler data is all wrong. To really know what is happening, all that data will need to go into a good editor and examined carefully. Then decisions as to what needs to be done can be done with some intelligence.

None of which is energy free, energy is required to make this correction or to re-create what was once lost.


Bernice

I'm not a technician, Bernice, but I don't think anything is tricking my ear/brain. I think the ripping software is just reading and re-reading the data until it gets what the laser misses through the scratch or glitch when attempting to play the file in real time. I could be wrong about that, but if I am, my ear/brain is sufficiently fooled, it sounds much better than it did when it was dropping out (usually it sounds perfectly restored), and if a really good editor and a careful examination would be required to know what's really going on, why would I care? I'm listening to music, not taking a "perfect to the last bit" test.

Tim

 

[mauidan]

The properly ripped cd playing back through a DAC of equal quality is better. Tim

Could you please give us the details of the software/equipment you've compared to support this statement?

And since you seem to believe that "If it can be heard it can be measured," can you please tell us what measurements you used to confirm what you heard?

Mahalo nui loa,

Dan

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Could you please give us the details of the software/equipment you've compared to support this statement?

And since you seem to believe that "If it can be heard it can be measured," can you please tell us what measurements you used to confirm what you heard?

Mahalo nui loa,

Dan

You need to read the post you pulled that line from, Dan. If you think a ripped CD that has restored a file to complete, playing exactly the same data (other than the glitches) on the CD is not "better" than listening to drop-outs on a CDP, or if you think measurements are required to demonstrate that, I'm not going to waste any time trying to convince you.

Tim

 

[herb]

Steve, did you contact Jae about an event to hear this machine?

If not, maybe we can hear it at CES. Do you know if KJ will be at the Nugget?

Jane and I will be going to Vegas, as we have done for many years.

If we don't see you, perhaps you might check out The Golden Steer, a strip mall, very expensive, locals favorite with sometimes great cuts.
Then there are the great meals in Chinatown, but early arrival is essential to avoid long waits.

Herb