A remarkable Redbook CD afternoon at Goodwin's High End
- Thread starter Al M.
- Start date
Ai, Sorry to be late...but I'd like to share with you my experience.
First of all my best compliments AI for your very interesting "reportage" on those two DACs, interesting in particular because of the music used: chamber and orchestral music, the unique real test to estabilish the accuracy in reproduction of each music system. But Neverthless I wonder: why did you use CDs as source instead of files from ripped CDs? There is a wonderful article by Elberoth (read it on this site, if you have the occasion, it is really interesting and, still now illuminating) who compares several USB converters to the best CD Transports (Dcs Vivaldi Transport, Accuphase DC, ecc.). After listening a CD ripped file via Berkeley USB I stopped totally to listen to CDs (even if at home I have more than 20.000 CDs!).
I have never listen to Dcs Rossini or Berkeley Reference using a CD Transport as source, but I had the occasion to compare Dcs Rossini to Berkeley Reference via Aurender music server (and for Berkeley using also its USB adaptor). Both these DACs are wonderful music machines, but Berkely in my opinion is more natural (no Peter, no more analogue-like, but more life-like reproduction!). At home I use a Mac mini with an Audioquest Jetterbug (and thanks to this cheap device by Audioquest my Mac mini with Audinirvana latest version sounds as good as the Aurender servers!) to fill my Berkeley Reference DAC via Berkeley USB and every time I wonder how it comes that the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, or the Vienna one, are playing for real in my living room!
First of all my best compliments AI for your very interesting "reportage" on those two DACs, interesting in particular because of the music used: chamber and orchestral music, the unique real test to estabilish the accuracy in reproduction of each music system. But Neverthless I wonder: why did you use CDs as source instead of files from ripped CDs? There is a wonderful article by Elberoth (read it on this site, if you have the occasion, it is really interesting and, still now illuminating) who compares several USB converters to the best CD Transports (Dcs Vivaldi Transport, Accuphase DC, ecc.). After listening a CD ripped file via Berkeley USB I stopped totally to listen to CDs (even if at home I have more than 20.000 CDs!).
I have never listen to Dcs Rossini or Berkeley Reference using a CD Transport as source, but I had the occasion to compare Dcs Rossini to Berkeley Reference via Aurender music server (and for Berkeley using also its USB adaptor). Both these DACs are wonderful music machines, but Berkely in my opinion is more natural (no Peter, no more analogue-like, but more life-like reproduction!). At home I use a Mac mini with an Audioquest Jetterbug (and thanks to this cheap device by Audioquest my Mac mini with Audinirvana latest version sounds as good as the Aurender servers!) to fill my Berkeley Reference DAC via Berkeley USB and every time I wonder how it comes that the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, or the Vienna one, are playing for real in my living room!
By the way: Kremer is one of the greatest violinists of our times, and recently he performed the akreutzer sonata in duo with Zimerman (one of the best five living pianists!). But the Kreutzer recording by Kremer in duo with Martha Argerich is simply an unrepeateble masterpiece!
Hi Simone,
thank you for your feedback, I am glad you enjoyed my report. As for CDs vs. files, I have heard diametrically opposing views over the years, so I'll probably stay where I am for now, unless I hear a direct comparison someday, preferably in my own system.
Yet when it comes to the dCS Rossini Player which I plan to purchase, Alan Sircom wrote in his review that physical CDs through its transport beat equivalent files, something that surprised him since he was an enthusiastic early adopter of file replay. I also heard from a number of dCS Vivaldi owners that in a direct comparison of CD and file the transport wins; I have never heard opposing views in this case (obviously, the Vivaldi transport is of even better quality than the transport in the Rossini; on the other hand, a one-box solution like the Rossini Player may have its technical advantages too).
As you may have concluded from our reports, I view the Berkeley Reference as being considerably closer to the dCS Rossini than Peter does. In my view it clearly beats any other digital replay that I have heard except the current dCS gear, and it is far above the performance of my own Berkeley Alpha DAC 2 (you owned one yourself, I believe), which I nonetheless still very much enjoy for the time being. Considered on its own, the Alpha DAC 2 still does a lot of things right musically, and I am thrilled how my system sounds with it in the playback chain on a lot of material. I am glad to hear the Berkeley Reference gives you such musical satisfaction.
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I have a CD of early Beethoven violin sonatas with Kremer/Argerich, and the performance is amazing.
Dear Al,
Have you personally had any experience with playing Redbook CDs through any of the Lampizator products (which I think are only DACs) about which many members are very enthusiastic?
PS: Oh, and can't you persuade dCS to make a version of the Rossini with some tubes?
Have you personally had any experience with playing Redbook CDs through any of the Lampizator products (which I think are only DACs) about which many members are very enthusiastic?
PS: Oh, and can't you persuade dCS to make a version of the Rossini with some tubes?
AI I'm not an expertise of computers, but it's simple to make acquaittance with a computer as main source of your Hi-End system. I had my first experience with ripped music files instead of CDs or SACD 10 yrs ago, but I wasn't very happy of the final results, because I hadn't understood a key point: the USB port is far from an ideal "Hi-End" way to trasmit electrical signals from your PC to a DAC. This is why some factories started to project and to make USB "adaptors", an interface between PC and DAC. But only when I listened to Berkeley USB I realized all the wonderful possibilities to change the "game" using files (I use AIFF uncompressed file ripped from original CDs). I had two Accuphase SACD and CD Players, the DP 700 and DP 600, both of them wonderfully engeneered and with the possibility to be used also as separate DAC. The first time I compared at home, on my usual system, a CD and a ripped file from my Mac Mini via Berkeley USB to Accuphase Players I couldn't believe to my ears: all the glance and the "digital unpleaseant flavour" suddenly disappered when I passed from CD to the ripped file from the same CD! I spent several days in these comparisons, even if it was clear after few seconds of listening that the easy winner was the Mac Mini plus Berkely USB. Only after six months I decided to buy a separate DAC, and all DACs (kindly lent by some good friends) tested on my systems had always great benefits if I used PC plus Berkely USB instead of CDs or ripped files using the direct USB port which is present in almost all DACs.
The ultimate improvement has come with Berkeley Reference DAC, and has been an improvement so great that now (from more than 1 year) I don't look anymore for any other change of the other components of my system because, for the very first time in my long audiophile life (more the 30 yrs, considering that I started to be an audiophile when I was 11 yrs old!). No more being anxious on which cable, which pre or power amplifier to change for obtaining a better sound! Because the music nowadays flows so naturally beautiful from my system that I need only to rip good music to listen to!
And can I tell you a secret? A lot of recordings we audiophile people thought were indecent (for instance all the Bernstein recordings for Columbia in the fifties and sixties of last century...) sound now on my system so natural, so beutifully right! And I mean the "red book" format, ripped from CDs, no HiRes files or SACD....why not? Because in Red Book there is already every information we need, the only point is how to extract it from CD! Last year in Munich I listened to new Meridian MQA system, the system magnified in latest TAS magazine by Robert Harley. Well I'll listen once again to MQA next May in Munich HiEnd 2016, but my last year impressions were of a very good quality, but no that improvement considering my own experience. And please consider that I compare directly the music which flows from my system to the same music I've listened live few hours erlier. For instance 3 days ago the Beethoven violin concerto, played live at Teatro Verdi of Florence, wonderfully played by a relatively young russian violinist, Dimitri Makhtin, was later compared with the masterpiece of interpretation and recording which is the Isabelle Faust -Claudio Abbado version recorded for Harmonia Mundi. Well can I dare to say that at home I listened to the same natural sound I heard at Theatre, not only concerning the violin and the strings, always silky and "wooden-made" violins, violas, cellos, but also the woodwinds, the trumpets and above all the Tympani? Yes I can...
This is why, even if I am a proud owner of thousands of CDs and still now I go on in buying them (specially the box-sets where a CD costs often less than 1 € or 1 $!), this is why, I said, nowadays I do not listen anymore to CDs either on my main system or on my head-phone (a Stax 009) dedicated system.
This is my own experience, I am a simple "listener" and not a professionist or a journalist, so it's only an opinion of mine and not a "general rule or a law"...but even if with this important limitation, I'm glad to share my experience whith other people.
The ultimate improvement has come with Berkeley Reference DAC, and has been an improvement so great that now (from more than 1 year) I don't look anymore for any other change of the other components of my system because, for the very first time in my long audiophile life (more the 30 yrs, considering that I started to be an audiophile when I was 11 yrs old!). No more being anxious on which cable, which pre or power amplifier to change for obtaining a better sound! Because the music nowadays flows so naturally beautiful from my system that I need only to rip good music to listen to!
And can I tell you a secret? A lot of recordings we audiophile people thought were indecent (for instance all the Bernstein recordings for Columbia in the fifties and sixties of last century...) sound now on my system so natural, so beutifully right! And I mean the "red book" format, ripped from CDs, no HiRes files or SACD....why not? Because in Red Book there is already every information we need, the only point is how to extract it from CD! Last year in Munich I listened to new Meridian MQA system, the system magnified in latest TAS magazine by Robert Harley. Well I'll listen once again to MQA next May in Munich HiEnd 2016, but my last year impressions were of a very good quality, but no that improvement considering my own experience. And please consider that I compare directly the music which flows from my system to the same music I've listened live few hours erlier. For instance 3 days ago the Beethoven violin concerto, played live at Teatro Verdi of Florence, wonderfully played by a relatively young russian violinist, Dimitri Makhtin, was later compared with the masterpiece of interpretation and recording which is the Isabelle Faust -Claudio Abbado version recorded for Harmonia Mundi. Well can I dare to say that at home I listened to the same natural sound I heard at Theatre, not only concerning the violin and the strings, always silky and "wooden-made" violins, violas, cellos, but also the woodwinds, the trumpets and above all the Tympani? Yes I can...
This is why, even if I am a proud owner of thousands of CDs and still now I go on in buying them (specially the box-sets where a CD costs often less than 1 € or 1 $!), this is why, I said, nowadays I do not listen anymore to CDs either on my main system or on my head-phone (a Stax 009) dedicated system.
This is my own experience, I am a simple "listener" and not a professionist or a journalist, so it's only an opinion of mine and not a "general rule or a law"...but even if with this important limitation, I'm glad to share my experience whith other people.
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PS: Oh, and can't you persuade dCS to make a version of the Rossini with some tubes?
In my opinion, that wouldn't be a very good idea. If you want the effect of tubes, the Lampizator is a fantastic choice (if you want it in a DAC) else utilize a tube preamp. However, with tubes you will never get a linear presentation; there will always be some frequencies that are pushed and some that are recessed. The noise floor will never be as low and the sound won't be as clean. One of the strongest attributes of the dCS is it's dead quiet background and linear presentation - where no frequencies jump out at you - you are left with just the music.
I heard a system using a Lampizator at the recent Sydney audio show, with SS amp, on several tracks of varying styles. The competence of the playback, when using the right digital source mechanism, was of a high order - I didn't hear anything that said valves were flavouring the sound, at all ...
I think you are addressing some specific tube equipment - many modern tube electronics do not have such problems. The best listening sessions I had with DCS were using tubes or at less, tube preamplifiers.
Frank,
Could you tell us what was the right source mechanism? And perhaps the wrong one?
microstrip, in this particular case it was a win for file source - I have no favourites myself, I have heard excellent sound from both.
The demo used an Oppo unit purely as transport, feeding the Lampizator - to allow visitors to play test CDs. This combination badly degraded the sound, introduced a distinct "digital edge" - the "musicality" was lost. When the chap running the show, who was also the principal of the company, played his music files from his laptop - sorry, I don't know what the software was, or whether he used any extra hardware to "buffer" the signal - that quality loss was not audible.
My explanation would be that the combination of the particular Oppo and Lampizator electronics caused audible artifacts to be added to the signal - so, it may be entirely a different result with other units.
An excellent synopsis MF, summing up my own considerations and concerns rather well.
Ultimately I remain somewhat wary of Lampizator Big 7 and GG entirely for the very same design topology that attracts other audiophiles to the product, in that for my part I consider that I have more than enough Thermionic devices adding a degree of pleasing harmonic distortion further down my replay chain as it is.
It would be interesting to know of the percentage of Big7 and GG owners that are pairing a valve front end with SS Pre/Power, as apposed to running an full on valve system ? Having run with a number of vintage valve R2R over the years as well as a couple of more modern valve CDP, I am acutely conscious IMHO, that too many Valves in a system might well ' Over egg the pudding' as the saying goes.
Likewise I remain a tad wary of investing the sort of entry fee sums required of DCS world, altho the Rossini plus clock may well close the gap sufficiently on Vivaldi for serious consideration, given that it is a third of Vivaldi RRP.
Perhaps I should just stick to Studer and ReVoX for the time being
Lampi sounded pretty poor to me at Munich too. In fact audiophile Bill had previously heard it in his system, but after listening to it at Munich crossed it off. They he heard it outside show conditions again and bought it and now obsesses over it. In fact after Sujay now liked the lampi after listening to it at a distributor's place, I told him not to try listening to it in Munich. I must say a lot of people last year loved the sound of the golden gate into the avant-garde duos with lampi at Munich, but I couldn't wait to leave despite being a Lampi fan
An excellent synopsis MF, summing up my own considerations and concerns rather well.
Ultimately I remain somewhat wary of Lampizator Big 7 and GG entirely for the very same design topology that attracts other audiophiles to the product, in that for my part I consider that I have more than enough Thermionic devices adding a degree of pleasing harmonic distortion further down my replay chain as it is.
It would be interesting to know of the percentage of Big7 and GG owners that are pairing a valve front end with SS Pre/Power, as apposed to running an full on valve system ? Having run with a number of vintage valve R2R over the years as well as a couple of more modern valve CDP, I am acutely conscious IMHO, that too many Valves in a system might well ' Over egg the pudding' as the saying goes.
Perhaps I should just stick to Studer and ReVoX for the time being
That is a red herring. Guys with full on valves - well, I have run Lampi through all AR Ref into Summits, then Jadis, Vac and NAT. Greg the UK distri is full on valve SET with Lampi. Mike the Audioshark founder is too, now that he has AG Duos, though I think he also deals in SS amps and previously would have used them on Sonus Faber. Elberoth runs it into MSB amps, had Vitus amps for demp when I visited him, and surely gets different amps to audition. Audiocrack runs Lampi into his Kondo valves. Mike Lavigne into Dartzeel. Audiophile Bill into a combo of AR pre and Krell power, though he is now getting Analog Domain integrated SS. There are many on Audioshark who use both, Joeinid runs his Lampi into Lampi amps, also had the VAC integrated, and CJ Gat/Art. There are many others on that forum, and one more in London with high end Kondo amps. Mark Sablon has SS I think.
So actually, there is no pattern. I have heard it in a full Krell system and a high end Shindo system, both of which had Esoteric K01, and this sounded much better to both me and the owners, so it wasn't a case of just valves replacing SS.
+1.
and not all solid state or tubes are created equal. rolling tubes gives you different flavors and synergies too.
darTZeel is already tube like in many ways. whether the (dsd only) GG or Lampizator is the last word in detail retrieval is up for debate. but there is no doubt that the Lampi GG/darTZeel combination is a 'glorious viewpoint' on the music and results in hour upon hour of involving fatigue free digital music enjoyment. and I find it compliments my vinyl and tape as it's cut from the same cloth.
I'm listening to redbook (up-sampled to Quad dsd with JRiver) about 1/2 the time.....like right now.
I've now used the Elrog 300b (run on the 101/45 setting as recommended by Elrog) with the Takatsuki 274b recti since mid-January for hours daily without issue.
as far as a 'show system' with the Lampi GG there are so many variables. you have server differences, power grid differences, interconnect differences, system grounding differences, preamp differences, etc, etc. it all matters. I'm using the CAPS v4 hot-rodded server, Equi=tech isolation transformer, the top-of-line Tara Labs GM interconnects, the Tripoint Troy + Entreq, new dart pre.....in a mature, uber tweaked system. if the GG is fed by a laptop and plugged into the hotel power grid at the show......garbage in--garbage out.
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Dear me, No cause for anyone to be getting their Thong in a Tangle, Over an entirely reasonable self rumination here.
I can confirm that no Clupea harengus were harmed in the making of this personal speculation, Coccineus or otherwise!
I can confirm that no Clupea harengus were harmed in the making of this personal speculation, Coccineus or otherwise!
And is, in part, my reasoning as outlined previously Mike, with variations in valve sets imparting their own sonic effect upon the source material wave form, would the authentic to the recorded event Menuhin, Hendrix or Poly Styrene please step forward.
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