Leading Edge/Percussive Bass: Subwoofer Setup: Reference Tracks etc.

[musicfirst1]

So over the last three years, I've spent hundreds of hours trying to tune the bass response of my System. I originally started out with a pair of Rockport Cygnus and slowly added two, then four, then finally six Rel Gibraltar G1s (connected with high level inputs but no variable phase adjustments). The speakers and the subs (and the listening chairs) travelled virtually every square inch of the first 1/3 of my 13.5'x 25' listening room, every recommended subwoofer configuration, from even with the listening chairs all the way to the front wall of the listening room, in both room nulls and peaks; 2x3 stacked and 6 swarmed at the points of highest reinforcement ala the 'bass crawl about' where one puts one, (then eventually two then three subs stacked) at the center listening position and finds the dips and peaks in the listening area.

These are my findings YMMV!!!:

Distributed bass arrays, at least on my Rel Gibraltars, where 6 subs are on the floor at the points of highest bass reinforcement (AKA Swarms I believe), while being the most effective way of energizing the room and extending the frequency response of the system, unless they are perfectly DSP'd (not recommended IMO) and adjusted precisely for phase (timing) response at the listening chair, do so at the expense of attack, speed and definition of percussive components on some recordings.

Some recordings of drums, upright bass and Hammond B3 come to mind that display the issue well.

REF 1: The true torture test for me Dave Brubeck: Take Five - Time Out from 2:00-4:15. The attack of the bass and the drums through this section of the piece should be both lightening fast and separate. This is very very easy to get wrong. There are minute timing differences between the drums and the upright bass. Many main speakers don't do this well at all and almost all subs/mains setups make it worse.

If everything is right, the interplay between the drummer, Joe Morello and the Bassist, Eugene Wright is breathtaking. Huge Attack and momentous bass and drums!!

REF 2: Eagles: Hell Freezes Over - Hotel California. When the kick drum 'kicks' in, the better the leading edge, the more correct your setup, getting multiple subs to NOT mess this up, especially if located behind the main speakers, is a Hurculean, if not impossible task.

REF 3: Patricia Barber, Cafe Blue - Nardis Drum Solo. If your system is right, the kick drum has a separate 'kick signature' from all the other drums in the kit!! This is how it is in real life too, especially if the drum kit is minimally mic'ed.
Don't expect every drum solo recording to show this difference (kick, vs snare, high toms, and floor toms), but this one does.

REF 4: Patricia Barber, Companion - Black Magic Woman. A slightly easier test, but the keyboad clicks and the start of the Leslie should be razor sharp.

Honorable Mention: Hok-man Yim Poem of Chinese Drum: Look I don't consider myself an audiophile (really). I'm a music lover who loves good sound. But this is an amazingly resolving cut that really tells you what your system is doing in the bottom octave A great combination of leading edge attack and astounding presence, resonance and bloom.

Also, the vast majority of reference bass tracks DO NOT reveal this phenomena!!! Reference Electronica or Organ music or cuts like Boz Scaggs' "Thanks to You" lack the percussive components and cues to hear this effect.

Well those are my four reference Percussive cuts. I'm hoping more will show up here.

Here are my closing thoughts

The most valuable thing to spend on one's system is time.

There are a million wrong ways to set up subs, and only one right way, which is probably why subs get such a bad rap.

You have to try a lot of subs to realize you don't need a lot of subs.

At a minimum, you need two subs, they must be sealed enclosure, as port totally defeat what were trying to do here; and ideally the driver(s) should be bigger than the largest driver of the main speakers.

I have heard dozens if not hundreds of sub setups located behind the main speakers, only three of which passed the REF1 'Time Out' test, REGARDLESS OF COST. None of the setups with subs in the corner or along the front wall can do what these cuts can do.

TO MY EAR, SUBS MUST BE PLACED so the acoustic centers of the subs are in line with the Acoustic Centers of the main speakers, if they are a little ways back, and variable phase adjustments are possible, they might work, but I'm not sure. I know there are schools of thought that subs are not directional (below 100 hz or so), one only needs one to fill in the bottom etc. These do not concur with my findings despite my subs low pass filter currently set to between 24-30Hz (my preference is drifting towards 30 Hz) and the Bayz Courantes running full range (anechoic spec -3db at 27 Hz).

I think there were literally dozens of times I was ready to sell the subs over the last three years.

However, now that I have found MY best sub locations, I'll never live without subs. Two for sure.

The extra 5-10 Hz is absolutely critical, even if your mains go down to 20hz. The easiest things to hear are, believe it or not increased soundstage width, depth and general ambience, finally followed by the extension to approximately 18Hz..

For my room, The additional two pairs of REL subs (from 2 to 6) provide only 1-3 hz extension with dramatically more complicated setup issues. My extra two pairs are now for sale.


Final position of my 2x3 REL Subwoofer Array with the Cygnus.



My current setup with two of the original six REL subs and my Bayz Courantes. So far I have found the best bass response is where the acoustic center of the subs is aligned with the acoustic center of the main speakers.

 

[Lagonda]

So over the last three years, I've spent hundreds of hours trying to tune the bass response of my System. I originally started out with a pair of Rockport Cygnus and slowly added two, then four, then finally six Rel Gibraltar G1s (connected with high level inputs but no variable phase adjustments). The speakers and the subs (and the listening chairs) travelled virtually every square inch of the first 1/3 of my 13.5'x 25' listening room, every recommended subwoofer configuration, from even with the listening chairs all the way to the front wall of the listening room, in both room nulls and peaks; 2x3 stacked and 6 swarmed at the points of highest reinforcement ala the 'bass crawl about' where one puts one, (then eventually two then three subs stacked) at the center listening position and finds the dips and peaks in the listening area.

These are my findings YMMV!!!:

Distributed bass arrays, at least on my Rel Gibraltars, where 6 subs are on the floor at the points of highest bass reinforcement (AKA Swarms I believe), while being the most effective way of energizing the room and extending the frequency response of the system, unless they are perfectly DSP'd (not recommended IMO) and adjusted precisely for phase (timing) response at the listening chair, do so at the expense of attack, speed and definition of percussive components on some recordings.

Some recordings of drums, upright bass and Hammond B3 come to mind that display the issue well.

REF 1: The true torture test for me Dave Brubeck: Take Five - Time Out from 2:00-4:15. The attack of the bass and the drums through this section of the piece should be both lightening fast and separate. This is very very easy to get wrong. There are minute timing differences between the drums and the upright bass. Many main speakers don't do this well at all and almost all subs/mains setups make it worse.

If everything is right, the interplay between the drummer, Joe Morello and the Bassist, Eugene Wright is breathtaking. Huge Attack and momentous bass and drums!!

REF 2: Eagles: Hell Freezes Over - Hotel California. When the kick drum 'kicks' in, the better the leading edge, the more correct your setup, getting multiple subs to NOT mess this up, especially if located behind the main speakers, is a Hurculean, if not impossible task.

REF 3: Patricia Barber, Cafe Blue - Nardis Drum Solo. If your system is right, the kick drum has a separate 'kick signature' from all the other drums in the kit!! This is how it is in real life too, especially if the drum kit is minimally mic'ed.
Don't expect every drum solo recording to show this difference (kick, vs snare, high toms, and floor toms), but this one does.

REF 4: Patricia Barber, Companion - Black Magic Woman. A slightly easier test, but the keyboad clicks and the start of the Leslie should be razor sharp.

Honorable Mention: Hok-man Yim Poem of Chinese Drum: Look I don't consider myself an audiophile (really). I'm a music lover who loves good sound. But this is an amazingly resolving cut that really tells you what your system is doing in the bottom octave A great combination of leading edge attack and astounding presence, resonance and bloom.

Also, the vast majority of reference bass tracks DO NOT reveal this phenomena!!! Reference Electronica or Organ music or cuts like Boz Scaggs' "Thanks to You" lack the percussive components and cues to hear this effect.

Well those are my four reference Percussive cuts. I'm hoping more will show up here.

Here are my closing thoughts

There are a million wrong ways to set up subs, and only one right way, which is probably why subs get such a bad rap.

You have to try a lot of subs to realize you don't need a lot of subs.

At a minimum, you need two subs, they must be sealed enclosure, as port totally defeat what were trying to do here; and ideally the driver(s) should be bigger than the largest driver of the main speakers.

I have heard dozens if not hundreds of sub setups located behind the main speakers, only three of which passed the REF1 'Time Out' test, REGARDLESS OF COST. None of the setups with subs in the corner or along the front wall can do what these cuts can do.

TO MY EAR, SUBS MUST BE PLACED so the acoustic centers of the subs are in line with the Acoustic Centers of the main speakers, if they are a little ways back, and variable phase adjustments are possible, they might work, but I'm not sure. I know there are schools of thought that subs are not directional (below a hundred hz or so), one only needs one to fill in the bottom etc. These do not concur with my findings

I think there were literally dozens of times I was ready to sell the subs over the last three years.

However, now that I have found MY best sub locations, I'll never live without subs. Two for sure.

The extra 5-10 Hz is absolutely critical, even if your mains go down to 20hz. The easiest things to hear are, believe it or not increased soundstage width, depth and general ambience.

For my room, The additional two pairs of REL subs (from 2 to 6) provide only 1-3 hz extension with dramatically more complicated setup issues. My extra two pairs are now for sale.

View attachment 72266
Final position of my 2x3 REL Subwoofer Array with the Cygnus.

View attachment 72267

My current setup with two of the original six REL subs and my Bayz Courantes. So far I have found the best bass response is where the acoustic center of the subs is aligned with the acoustic center of the main speakers.

Without phase adjustment your options are very limited, and using stacked subs with your current placement is definitely a no no. What crossover point did you end up using for your subs ? I am assuming the Bayz are running full-range, i do trust your ears ! I am truly baffled that a quality sub like the REL is manufactured without the option of full phase adjustments. Nice choice of poster on the wall too.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

“Jazz Variants” (O-Zone Percussion Group)
From: La Bamba. Klavier KD 77017

Or from: Manger Audio Reference (CD or LP)

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for telling us about your experience, music first 100.

Could you please elaborate on why the additional two pairs of subs made the set up dramatically more complicated?

 

[musicfirst1]

Without phase adjustment your options are very limited, and using stacked subs with your current placement is definitely a no no. What crossover point did you end up using for your subs ? I am assuming the Bayz are running full-range, i do trust your ears ! I am truly baffled that a quality sub like the REL is manufactured without the option of full phase adjustments. Nice choice of poster on the wall too. View attachment 72268

Lagonda

As of now, I am running the low pass filter on the subs at between 24-30 Hz and the Bayz Courante's are running full range (-3db@27Hz). My preference is drifting towards a 30Hz setting on the subs, but more critical listening is definitely required.

And yes, yes I like your taste in 'art' too.

 

[Lagonda]

Lagonda

As of now, I am running the low pass filter on the subs at between 24-30 Hz and the Bayz Courante's are running full range (-3db@27Hz). My preference is drifting towards a 30Hz setting on the subs, but more critical listening is definitely required.

And yes, yes I like your taste in 'art' too.

Yes, your "art" covers a door, mine 2 windows ! Great minds think alike

 

[musicfirst1]

Thank you for telling us about your experience, music first 100.

Could you please elaborate on why the additional two pairs of subs made the set up dramatically more complicated?

For me, the "complications" come with trying to integrate the physical presence of the monolithic stacks of subwoofers with the mains.

It is virtually impossible to align the acoustic centers of 2x3 high stacks of subs with the acoustic centers of a conventional speaker like the Cygnus without negatively impacting on the imaging as compared to the Cygnus alone. (and as I detailed in the OP, placing the RELs behind the mains destroys the timing component of the bottom octave.)

And it is ABSOLUTELY impossible to do it with the Omni Directional Bayz Courantes (I couldn't even get a 2x2 REL stack to work...)

 

[Lagonda]

For me, the "complications" come with trying to integrate the physical presence of the monolithic stacks of subwoofers with the mains.

It is virtually impossible to align the acoustic centers of 2x3 high stacks of subs with the acoustic centers of a conventional speaker like the Cygnus without negatively impacting on the imaging as compared to the Cygnus alone.

And it is ABSOLUTELY impossible to do it with the Omni Directional Bayz Courantes (I couldn't even get a 2x2 REL stack to work...)

I recently removed the carpeting in the first third of my listening room, and decided to move my sub towers around on the now smooth floor. After 2 month of dancing a slow waltz around the room with the 2 behemoths and adjusting crossover accordingly, i ended up with a placement about 2 cm from the original, with the same phase settings as before. Towers in the soundstage affect the sound dramatically in a omnis setting, and closer to mains does not mean better integration

 

[musicfirst1]

I recently removed the carpeting in the first third of my listening room, and decided to move my sub towers around on the now smooth floor. After 2 month of dancing a slow waltz around the room with the 2 behemoths and adjusting crossover accordingly, i ended up with a placement about 2 cm from the original, with the same phase settings as before. Towers in the soundstage affect the sound dramatically in a omnis setting, and closer to mains does not mean better integration

Remember, my comments are with subs that do not have variable phase (continuous from 0 to 180 degrees or more) or a true crossover.

 

[Lagonda]

Remember, my comments are with subs that do not have variable phase (continuous from 0 to 180 degrees or more) or a true crossover.

I know ! Your placement options with good phase integration are very limited.

 

[oldmustang]

I appreciate your experience and you taking the time to share it with us. In my own experience however I haven’t really gone through the struggles you and others I’ve read about have gone through integrating their subwoofers to their main speakers. In fact, rather than staying at a pair of subwoofers, I’ve been actively moving toward an end-game of three subwoofers per side in vertical arrays, a la your REL Reference Line Array, using SVS SB16 Ultra subs instead of REL No.25s.

I do agree that having a sub or stack of subs too close to the front plane of the main speakers can harm the imaging and sound stage of the mains. My solution to that problem has been to move the subs slightly back of the mains.

Now, I’m going to check out the tracks you’ve listed to hear how well my setup is doing, but I will say, bearing in mind that in this hobby there is always room for improvement, that using other really well recorded music that has leading edge percussive bass and drum sounds, my ears and my experience being on stage very close to a drum kit tells me that my systems is getting an awful lot of that stuff right, and adding an additional pair of subwoofers has made that aspect of performance even better.

Maybe I’m lucky or maybe I’m not as sensitive to the last microseconds of time alignment as other folks, or both. Or perhaps I’m in that situation that comes up in audio where I don’t know there is something that can sound better, until I hear it sound better. Then it becomes obvious.

I’ll list some of my favorite tracks that sound very live and life-like in an upcoming post.

Steve Z

 

[Testy Troll]

First of all, a recommendation: Stanley Clarke - Journey to Love

The set up I employ works quite nicely for me.
Two Genesis Servo 12s Subs in a stereo configuration (both placed outside of my Hales Signature Twos on the same plane) They cover the 30-50 Hz range.
One Revel B15 Sub centrally located. It covers the 10-30 Hz range.
The Hales run full range (not crossed over)
All the sub woofers have a GREAT range of controls to fiddle with.
The subs perfectly integrate with the Hales.

 

[dbeau]

So far I have found the best bass response is where the acoustic center of the subs is aligned with the acoustic center of the main speakers.

What does this mean? It may help me with my REL 'tuning' journey. Thanks

 

[oldmustang]

Here's a first installment of some tracks that contain strong percussive music in the lower frequency range. I've found that though the lowest note of an electric or double bass, or piano might not be thought of as serious subwoofer territory, this kind of music can really point out problems with the integration of subs to main speakers because if phase and amplitude aren't adjusted just right, the transition above, through and below the crossover zone will be fraught with problems and music will not be seamless, natural and lifelike.

This holds true in my experience whether the mains are crossed over to the subs or the mains are run full-range. Get the transition right and there will be absolutely no sense of discontinuity, thickening, slowness, lumpiness or what have you. In fact there will be no thought of, "Wow, Listen to that bass!". Instead the thought will be, "Wow! Listen to that drum!" Or double-bass, or organ. Music will be continuous from top to bottom and thrilling in its power, articulation and speed.

Mino Cinelu, 1998 self-titled album, "Oncoming Horizons"

Igor Stravinsky, L'Histoire du Soldat, Robert Mandell/Ars Nova (1956) HDTT transfer from R2R to digital, "Part I The Soldier's March"

Hiromi Uehara, Move: The Trio Project, "11:49PM"

Primus, Sailing The Seas Of Cheese, "Fish On"

Tori Amos, Hey Jupiter [EP] (1996), "Sugar"

Nenad Vasilic, The Art Of The Balkan Bass, "Opener"

Brian Bromberg, Wood, "The Saga Of Harrison Crabfeathers"

Jon Batiste, Hollywood Africans, "Chopinesque"

Toscho, Back By Popular Demand, "Forgotten Mines"

Blues Company, Invitation To The Blues, "Same Old Feeling"

So, these are just a representative handful of tracks from albums that have well-recorded, fast low-frequency transients and/or percussive bass information. These may not plumb the lowest frequencies but they will expose problems or alternatively, thrill you with their rightness.

There's nothing like a bass drum, or the left hand of the piano played in a percussive manner to test bass response and crossover behavior. The last track doesn't have any instrument in particular that is going to jump out at you (though it does feature a killer Hammond organ), but it should immediately transport you to a smoky blues club with its sense of life and vibrancy -- which is another thing subwoofers should be able to do. That is, capture the air, ambience and sense of space and energy present, be it in a quiet cathedral, a concert hall recording, or a jumping blues joint.

Have fun!

Steve Z

 

[musicfirst1]

What does this mean? It may help me with my REL 'tuning' journey. Thanks

The Acoustic Center of a driver is a design parameter where the origin of the acoustic signal is calculated to be. Generally, the larger the driver, the further back the acoustic center is from the face. Alignment of acoustic centers are why some speakers have staggered driver alignment. The tweeter is usually visually behind the midrange, which is in turn behind the woofers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

For me, the "complications" come with trying to integrate the physical presence of the monolithic stacks of subwoofers with the mains.

It is virtually impossible to align the acoustic centers of 2x3 high stacks of subs with the acoustic centers of a conventional speaker like the Cygnus without negatively impacting on the imaging as compared to the Cygnus alone.

And it is ABSOLUTELY impossible to do it with the Omni Directional Bayz Courantes (I couldn't even get a 2x2 REL stack to work...)

Interesting. Thank you for explaining.

 

[Ron Resnick]

First of all, a recommendation: Stanley Clarke - Journey to Love

The set up I employ works quite nicely for me.
Two Genesis Servo 12s Subs in a stereo configuration (both placed outside of my Hales Signature Twos on the same plane) They cover the 30-50 Hz range.
One Revel B15 Sub centrally located. It covers the 10-30 Hz range.
The Hales run full range (not crossed over)
All the sub woofers have a GREAT range of controls to fiddle with.
The subs perfectly integrate with the Hales. View attachment 72290

Does the center sub receive a summed L + R signal?

Why not use two of those Revel B15s in a stereo set-up in addition to the Genesis 12s?

 

[musicfirst1]

I think for me I have come to like my speakers and subs on a semi-circular arc from the listening position to the acoustic center of the main speakers and the REL subs. So far this provides the best percussive/transient response combined with the best low frequency extension.

With this geometry and the subs on the outside of the main speakers the RELs visually appear to be a significant distance ahead of the mains (see my last photo in the OP.)

Interestingly enough, Testy Troll has arrived at an almost identical geometry.. (see his post above)

 

[dbeau]

The Acoustic Center of a driver is a design parameter where the origin of the acoustic signal is calculated to be. Generally, the larger the driver, the further back the acoustic center is from the face. Alignment of acoustic centers are why some speakers have staggered driver alignment. The tweeter is usually visually behind the midrange, which is in turn behind the woofers.

Thanks - gonna implement that as easy to try.

 

[Testy Troll]

Does the center sub receive a summed L + R signal?

Why not use two of those Revel B15s in a stereo set-up in addition to the Genesis 12s?

Yes, the center sub receives summed signals.

That would be an option, but I like the bass integration and balance my current set up provides. Frankly, I'm amazed it works so well in my 13' X 13' X 8' listening room.