Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

[853guy]

I'll have to think of a better way to describe it. But it sounds pretty artificial to me.

Hi Folsom,

I've heard tube amps with harmonic structure disproportionate to the fundamental. This could be for any number of reasons, but it's easy to hear. An analogy would be stringing a guitar with six different types of string and then playing a chord in which the harmonics generated by each string caused the individual notes making up the chord stand in contrast to one another in an enharmonic way (like it's part of a different chord/chromatic structure). It makes things sound more "detailed", not because there is more detail, but because the structure of the harmonics is out of balance with the fundamental and one another.

It's not too dissimilar to low-Q EQ boosts on harmonically complex instruments, like, say a piano. Non-judicious use of non-linear-phase or minimum-phase EQ will significantly alter the phase relationship between pitches resulting in a more "detailed" sound that can come across as "unnatural" or "artificial" (i.e. "hyped").

I've also experienced it with Kondo litz cabling, which seemed to emphasize certain harmonics in a disproportionate manner depending on the complexity of the chordal structure (the usual caveats of "in my system, with those particular components" apply).

Is that what you're describing?

 

[Folsom]

Could be.

 

[DaveC]

Exaggeration of detail is generally caused by emphasized leading edges or graininess that is mistaken for textural detail. It's usually caused by poor quality passive components, wire and connectors.

I was talking about the preservation of fine detail which leads to a more 3 dimensional soundstage, tube amps do this very well assuming a competent design and quality parts.

I remember an old class-T or whatever mini-amp I had, even after mods and whatnot it sounded grey and 2-dimensional, the speakers positions were always audible, it was horrible. In comparison a SET amp made the speakers completely disappear and the soundstage opened up and became much more immersive. The differences are rarely this dramatic but this is an example of what I was talking about.

 

[morricab]

Exaggeration of detail is generally caused by emphasized leading edges or graininess that is mistaken for textural detail. It's usually caused by poor quality passive components, wire and connectors.

I was talking about the preservation of fine detail which leads to a more 3 dimensional soundstage, tube amps do this very well assuming a competent design and quality parts.

I remember an old class-T or whatever mini-amp I had, even after mods and whatnot it sounded grey and 2-dimensional, the speakers positions were always audible, it was horrible. In comparison a SET amp made the speakers completely disappear and the soundstage opened up and became much more immersive. The differences are rarely this dramatic but this is an example of what I was talking about.

Agree overall, although it is also circuit topology and negative feedback that contribute to the emphasized leading edges...not just passive parts.

 

[Amir]

Hi Peter, thanks and you are right, we all have our experiences but what I was conveying is that what I heard live is simply not replicated with the usual hifi gear. I can tell you where most systems fall down sonically and why I think that is the case but you may not like my answers. Counter examples can always be found due to poor execution but based on some fundamentals of human hearing and perception there should closer and further away approaches to the sound of the real thing. The closest approach I have heard to date is Living Voice Vox Olympian/Elyssian with Kondo gear. It might do it with other SETs but that is what they use every year in Munich.

It is not many systems that get the reproduction wrong it is nearly all of them. Nearly all. None are truly 100% successful but that is also a limitation of the recording and cannot be helped. As I said, the two things that struck me as fundamentally wrong with nearly all systems is tone and presence (wrap dynamics in with this as presence depends on it). Now, we can debate this but I have never, ever heard a SS amp deliver the tonal density along with the clarity that I heard sitting less than 3 meters from the performers on Sunday. Some SS amps sound rich (Vitus and BAT for example) in tone but lack the ultimate clarity and to a large degree the presence.

i think the best sound forever was Living Voice horn/kondo/CEC in munich high end 2014 .
between SS designers the Vitus designer (hans-ole) is in the same direction .

 

[LL21]

i think the best sound forever was Living Voice horn/kondo/CEC in munich high end 2014 .
between SS designers the Vitus designer (hans-ole) is in the same direction .

Very interesting...and have enjoyed reading Morricab's posts on his observations of systems relative to live music particularly his comments on Living Voice and SETs, electrostats & planars and horns as well.

While I have not had a truly great horn experience yet, I am convinced I have just not heard them set up super-well (and perhaps to my own personal taste admittedly). And I suspect Living Voice at their UK HQ setup by Kevin Scott would be truly great.

 

[morricab]

Very interesting...and have enjoyed reading Morricab's posts on his observations of systems relative to live music particularly his comments on Living Voice and SETs, electrostats & planars and horns as well.

While I have not had a truly great horn experience yet, I am convinced I have just not heard them set up super-well (and perhaps to my own personal taste admittedly). And I suspect Living Voice at their UK HQ setup by Kevin Scott would be truly great.

Yes, the setup in 2014 was truly transcendent...probably the best, most realistic sound I have ever heard...period.

 

[LL21]

Yes, the setup in 2014 was truly transcendent...probably the best, most realistic sound I have ever heard...period.

Excellent, then there is a sort of benchmark there which (even if not obviously going to be 100% replicable) is going to allow me to visit Living Voice and experience a very good proxy of that sound...and in fact should be even be better since Kevin is literally in his own space where he can design/control everything.

 

[morricab]

Excellent, then there is a sort of benchmark there which (even if not obviously going to be 100% replicable) is going to allow me to visit Living Voice and experience a very good proxy of that sound...and in fact should be even be better since Kevin is literally in his own space where he can design/control everything.

Will you go to Munich this year (assuming they have the show that is)?

 

[MadFloyd]

I'll have to think of a better way to describe it. But it sounds pretty artificial to me.

I think I know what you mean. I used to be very attracted to the sound of tubes because of their bloom and density of sound, but I do feel there is an additive quality that is artificial when it comes to timbre.

It doesn't stop me from enjoying it - because most of the time it's so darn musical & romantic (not to mention holographic).

 

[morricab]

I think I know what you mean. I used to be very attracted to the sound of tubes because of their bloom and density of sound, but I do feel there is an additive quality that is artificial when it comes to timbre.

It doesn't stop me from enjoying it - because most of the time it's so darn musical & romantic (not to mention holographic).

At least based on my hearing that is the way real acoustic instruments in real space actually sound, dense with bloom and PRESENCE...particularly when you are up relatively close...as most recordings. Nothing, IME, does this...particularly presence like a good SET. The more spartan and parsimonious tonality, bloom, density and presence of even the best SS amps to me sounds less real than when sitting live close to the musicians.

 

[bonzo75]

I think I know what you mean. I used to be very attracted to the sound of tubes because of their bloom and density of sound, but I do feel there is an additive quality that is artificial when it comes to timbre.

It doesn't stop me from enjoying it - because most of the time it's so darn musical & romantic (not to mention holographic).

This is based on your listening of high powered push pull tubes

 

[morricab]

This is based on your listening of high powered push pull tubes

Yes, those can exaggerate beyond real life but there is a tradeoff, usually in presence that gives the realism game away.

 

[andromedaaudio]

While I have not had a truly great horn experience yet,

Thats because these are extremely rare , most exist merely in a fantasy world .
Its is rumored high up in the Himalayan mountains there is a cave with a good horn set up owned by an Indian sadhu
It takes 10 days of trekking to get there and it operates on hydro power

 

[MadFloyd]

This is based on your listening of high powered push pull tubes

I've also heard SET, but only on horns.

One of the most telling things to listen to is voice.

 

[bonzo75]

I've also heard SET, but only on horns.

One of the most telling things to listen to is voice.

You are probably referring to one pair like Peter's.

Of course you have to listen to voice

 

[andromedaaudio]

I ve owned the zanden SET for years .
Had it along krell Boulder and Convergent .
Can sound nice , but has its flaws also .
I tried all kinds of tubes incl Sophia electric

Voices sound better with CAT in my opinion
There is more natural human like power behind the expression.

Ps I Would like to give the Lamm sets another try though

 

[morricab]

I ve owned the zanden SET for years .
Had it along krell Boulder and Convergent .
Can sound nice , but has its flaws also .
I tried all kinds of tubes incl Sophia electric

Voices sound better with CAT in my opinion
There is more natural human like power behind the expression.

Ps I Would like to give the Lamm sets another try though

View attachment 89339

View attachment 89340

Not the right speakers for that type of amp. That’s a 300b amp, no? Maybe 8 watts at full tilt...not surprised it was a compromised outcome.

 

[morricab]

I ve owned the zanden SET for years .
Had it along krell Boulder and Convergent .
Can sound nice , but has its flaws also .
I tried all kinds of tubes incl Sophia electric

Voices sound better with CAT in my opinion
There is more natural human like power behind the expression.

Ps I Would like to give the Lamm sets another try though

View attachment 89339

View attachment 89340

The NAT SE2SE was superior to the CAt JL2. Signature and is a closer like for like comparison.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Not the right speakers for that type of amp. That’s a 300b amp, no? Maybe 8 watts at full tilt...not surprised it was a compromised outcome.

Here you have the sound , it worked fine
When i was full into speaker designing mode , i tested with explosions / gunshots
I always tested with the Movie Heat among others

Ps it was 9 years ago an old phone