Live vs. Reproduced?

[silviajulieta]

Dear Mike Lavigne: +++++ " so a system which has that dynamic range at all frequencies, speed, ease, clarity, foundation, weight and synergy gets closest to live. " ++++++

well IMHO what was recorded.

Anyway that's not important for what I want to add on your statement:


IMHO almost any " decent " home audio system could mimic a live event ( well very near to 100% on that mimic or nearest that what we could think. ), I mean that the electronics devices ( amplifiers, preamps, CDs and the like ) and speakers have the possibilities to mimic those Transients/Power/Dynamic/Speed main live music characteristics even I thing those home audio devices has the " headroom " to take and play a live event .
The real problem IMHO is not inside each of these ( stand alone ) audio items home designs but what surrounded each one for we can hear any " sound " through the speakers. Are all those recording audio links and those playback audio links the ones that degrade the music signal that preclude mimic a music live event at home. Unfortunately any of the electronic audio items as speakers can't work by it self/stand alone and unfortunately too we need yhe recording medium as the playback audio chain.

Maybe I'm wrong ( I don't know. ) but fas42 thinked that has something in " hand " that he can't explain in " terms " we can understand mainly because IMHO he is taking " false " premise ( for start analysis. ) in its whole statement in a way that his conclusions are " false " too. In the other side I think he only saw his point of view and yours, other persons one or mine are not important: Seems to me that he don't analyze what we posted here or at least he don't want to change not even 1 inch his position and in this way can't be any kind or part of agreement with his statements.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.

 

[FrantzM]

HI

I am with Mike here .. These days I am forced to listen to music mostly through headphones and this will be for a few more months .. I do have a different appreciation for live music and it is somewhat available where I now live ... Live is very different and one of the things we may have to undersatnf is that we can recognize certain sounds even when badly distorted/reproduced .. to wit, a telephone .. a piano can be recognize through any telephone , even a cell phone .. the nuances and subtleties will be mostly lost but recognizable it will be ...

MikeL use the term "lens" and to me this is an important aspect ... When someone strike a cymbal the soundwaves come from all over the cymbal to reach our ears .. When reproduced, they comes from our tweeter .. yes .. the sound waves may be similar but I am not sure the way they are distributed through space and time is the same ... This could well be the limiting factor ... We are listening through the lenses of our systems and mostly of our speakers which when we think about them are very, but, very flawed ...

I am just speculating here ...

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear FrantzM: If you are talking of a normal music hall seat position I agree with you about that " space " but when you are listening to a piano at one meter what your ears take are those direct music transients before mix with the surrounded space and this is what I'm refereing on my posts to fas42 and ML.

Of course that that live music transient/power/dynamic/speed characteristics does not lose easily with distance and that's why at 50-100 meters when we heard a sound we know if is live music or recorded.

Anyway, too many audio recording/playback ( analog/digital. ) links that degraded the music signal.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Deare Mike Lavigne: +++++ " so a system which has that dynamic range at all frequencies, speed, ease, clarity, foundation, weight and synergy gets closest to live. " ++++++

well IMHO what was recorded.

Anyway that's not important for what I want to add on your statement:


IMHO almost any " decent " home audio system could mimic a live event ( well very near to 100% on that mimic or nearest that what we could think. ), I mean that the electronics devices ( amplifiers, preamps, CDs and the like ) and speakers have the possibilities to mimic those Transients/Power/Dynamic/Speed main live music characteristics even I thing those home audio devices has the " headroom " to take and play a live event .
The real problem IMHO is not inside each of these ( stand alone ) audio items home designs but what surrounded each one for we can hear any " sound " through the speakers. Are all those recording audio links and those playback audio links the ones that degrade the music signal that preclude mimic a music live event at home. Unfortunately any of the electronic audio items as speakers can't work by it self/stand alone and unfortunately too we need yhe recording medium as the playback audio chain.

Maybe I'm wrong ( I don't know. ) but fas42 thinked that has something in " hand " that he can't explain in " terms " we can understand mainly because IMHO he is taking " false " premise ( for start analysis. ) in its whole statement in a way that his conclusions are " false " too. In the other side I think he only saw his point of view and yours, other persons one or mine are not important: Seems to me that he don't analyze what we posted here or at least he don't want to change not even 1 inch his position and in this way can't be any kind or part of agreement with his statements.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.

Raul,

i'm not exactly clear on your point. but your comment about...

IMHO almost any " decent " home audio system could mimic a live event

infers that 'mimic' has a different definition than this;

mim·ic (mmk)
tr.v. mim·icked, mim·ick·ing, mim·ics
1. To copy or imitate closely, especially in speech, expression, and gesture; ape.
2. To copy or imitate so as to ridicule; mock: always mimicking the boss. See Synonyms at imitate.
3. To resemble closely; simulate: an insect that mimics a twig.
4. To take on the appearance of.

'resemble' maybe,

'suggest' maybe,

but just 'any' decent home audio system cannot 'copy or imitate closely' live music.

to approach the point where the lines blur between reproduced and live takes more than 'decent'.

i'd agree that most 'any' decent home audio system is likely enjoyable and capable of causing musical bliss. i will grant you that approaching 'live' musical reproduction most times involves the software as much as the hardware/system/room. and i've heard otherwise modest systems break thru their modest parts with a great Lp pressing or master tape. but you need all the pieces optimized to really approach 'live'.

best regards,

Mike

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Mike Lavigne: I can se I did not explain me in the right way ( not easy for me. If some one understand it please help me. ): what I mean is that an amplifier ( stand alone. ) design has the characteristics to mimc/handle the kind of transients/power/dynamics/speed of live music and a stand alone speaker design could do it too. Btw, I agree: something more than a decent audio items.

If in some way the live music signal could be inside a speaker in direct way , instead recorded/playback process, through that speaker we can have that transients/power/dynamics of the live music or at least nearest than ever. In the same way an audio amplifier can handle that live music signal with almost no trouble and nearest to that live music characteristics. But all we know these could not happen because we need ( at home ) all those hundreds of audio links where the signal must pass.

One additional trouble is that a microphone has no " feelings " senses/body as us that " hear " trough all our body and even what we " hear " trough our body has influence from our that listening time mind mood. A micro has other desire characteristics but not feelings.

A live experience is more than only live music Transients/Power/Dynamic/Speed, it is a whole experience a set of different experience characteristics that today can't mimic at home through LP/CDs/R2R/DVDA. I agree that if everything is optimized we could approach live but even here that approach will be at considerable distance from live music.


But the window/door is always open to the future technology that permit us to mimic at home a live music " affair ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[mep]

I think MikeL and Frantz are both touching on something here that gets closer to my thinking about why live music doesn’t sound like reproduced music. Like Mike said, live music has no limits on dynamic range. You are hearing each instrument (or a single instrument) in all its wide-open glory. Mike referred to the “lens effect” that our systems impose on the reproduced sound. I think that’s a good analogy.

Frantz talked about the sound of cymbals and how they radiate sound into the air-another good example. If you stand in front of a drummer while he is playing, you can hear the sound of the waves coming off the cymbal cutting through the air. Not to mention that cymbals not only come in all sizes, but you have different types of cymbals within those sizes and they all sound different (think crash, ride, and high-hat cymbals to name a few).

It’s probably a miracle that our systems sound as good as they do and can provide us the illusion of hearing live music, but anyone who thinks they have captured the PURE sound of live music over their system is either delusional or sadly mistaken. And if you say that your stereo sounds better than good musicians playing in a good sounding venue from good seats (lots of “goods” there), something is amiss. And I don’t care if you have hardwired your gear all the way back to the utility pole and soldered your speaker wires directly to the output devices of your amplifier, it can’t sound better/more real than live music.

 

[steve williams]

It’s probably a miracle that our systems sound as good as they do and can provide us the illusion of hearing live music, but anyone who thinks they have captured the PURE sound of live music over their system is either delusional or sadly mistaken. And if you say that your stereo sounds better than good musicians playing in a good sounding venue from good seats (lots of “goods” there), something is amiss. And I don’t care if you have hardwired your gear all the way back to the utility pole and soldered your speaker wires directly to the output devices of your amplifier, it can’t sound better/more real than live music.

you are spot on IMO Mark

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear Steve Williams: Now I can see, after 28 pages mep " solve " all.
Good!

regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[steve williams]

I was agreeing with his last paragraph Raul, nothing more and nothing less

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Dear Mike Lavigne: I can se I did not explain me in the right way ( not easy for me. If some one understand it please help me. ): what I mean is that an amplifier ( stand alone. ) design has the characteristics to mimc/handle the kind of transients/power/dynamics/speed of live music and a stand alone speaker design could do it too. Btw, I agree: something more than a decent audio items.

If in some way the live music signal could be inside a speaker in direct way , instead recorded/playback process, through that speaker we can have that transients/power/dynamics of the live music or at least nearest than ever. In the same way an audio amplifier can handle that live music signal with almost no trouble and nearest to that live music characteristics. But all we know these could not happen because we need ( at home ) all those hundreds of audio links where the signal must pass.

One additional trouble is that a microphone has no " feelings " senses/body as us that " hear " trough all our body and even what we " hear " trough our body has influence from our that listening time mind mood. A micro has other desire characteristics but not feelings.

A live experience is more than only live music Transients/Power/Dynamic/Speed, it is a whole experience a set of different experience characteristics that today can't mimic at home through LP/CDs/R2R/DVDA. I agree that if everything is optimized we could approach live but even here that approach will be at considerable distance from live music.


But the window/door is always open to the future technology that permit us to mimic at home a live music " affair ".

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Raul,

i respect that writing in a second language has it's challenges in communicating the ideas in your mind accurately. god knows it's hard enough for most of us in our native language.

you refer to active speakers.....

live music signal could be inside a speaker in direct way

....even including the source. i agree that in theory that might be a thing to pursue; however, in my experience any time the various steps of the reproduction chain are combined it turns out badly. or at least not outstanding. more compromised than optimized.

reality is more that best performance is achieved by eliminating un-needed steps and simplifying circuits. short circuit paths, single-ended amplification, simple crossovers, great power supplies, best possible parts, great power grid, all analog sources, first pressings, master dubs.

there is no mystery to great audio, just get rid of the crap. don't take a perfectly good analog signal and mess with it any more than you need to.

 

[microstrip]

(...)

It’s probably a miracle that our systems sound as good as they do and can provide us the illusion of hearing live music, but anyone who thinks they have captured the PURE sound of live music over their system is either delusional or sadly mistaken. And if you say that your stereo sounds better than good musicians playing in a good sounding venue from good seats (lots of “goods” there), something is amiss. And I don’t care if you have hardwired your gear all the way back to the utility pole and soldered your speaker wires directly to the output devices of your amplifier, it can’t sound better/more real than live music.

We have to consider that the final aim of our sound systems is not recreating sound waves - it is creating perceptual stimuli that enable us to recreate musical moments. Music is an intellectual and emotional process, where learning has an active part. If we accept sounding better means sounding more like the original life event (including his defects) , then we can accept that no copy can be as good as the original. The weak point is that there were too many "goods" in Mep statement.

If some people state they prefer listening to their systems rather than life we can think about it. Surely they have created a relation with sound reproduction that is not the typical one - most of us need perceptive stimuli physically approaching that of the live event as close as possible. May be their situation is somewhat similar to most music performers and conductors - they do not appreciate classical high-end stereo or audiophile needs, as their relation with music is kept at a different level. If someone establishes a very close partnership with his system - the typical case of DIY people - at some moment he risks appreciating the music through the recording and system more than through the life event. Than he just says his system sounds better than life - and perhaps more real in the sense of approaching the creator intentions without the life limitations.

Perhaps, just because this is not my way of enjoying sound reproduction, I have just written some nonsenses...

 

[fas42]

Do you think that everyone is wrong but you?, if yes then prove it: easy as that!

Very impressed with the conversation while I was away, good to see!

Unfortunately, it is hard to prove it. Because of the angle I'm coming from, my setup is much more fragile in terms of maintaining a high level of performance than Vince's, say, and the one thing I have learnt and battled with over the years is that you can't take anything for granted if you want to get the good sound. If I get just one thing wrong then you drop a huge height instantly, just note Vince's comments about what happens when he tries something else in his system. So to "prove" it I can't just load it into the car and show it off to someone at some other location. Guaranteed disaster!

Actually, at least other person gets it apart from me, and that is Vince. I don't have to listen to it to know, his comments make it crystal clear that he's got through this sound quality "barrier".

I emphasise low disortion because, IMO, that is the key. Yes, most people with well engineered or tweaked gear enjoy low distortion at low volume levels, it's what happens when you up the volume control that matters. One of my early insights was how even very expensive equipment starts to audibly distort at remarkably low sound levels. Most people ascribe this is to speaker distortion and a key breakthrough for me was the realisation was that this wasn't a speaker problem, it was an electronics problem. That how I can get away with this apparent madness in my home at the moment, having a cheap HT setup produce dramatically loud and clear sound: if I can make sure that the miserable little IC power amp is working as well as it can, then the cheap speaker can handle it, it doesn't break up, sound compressed, all the usual giveaways, and it sounds pretty good! At full volume on a loud recording I have to lean across and speak directly in my wife's ear so she can hear me, but there is no edginess, or harshness, just intensity of sound.

And as to experiencing intensity of live sound? My best experience was a couple of years ago standing right next to a big band going for it, that's right, not through a terrible PA, but about 10 feet away from trumpets, trombones, drums, the works. It was deafening, but beautiful!! Very naughty, as a test, I yelled at the top of my voice during a crescendo, and could not hear myself one iota -- that's intensity of sound!

Yes, music is not always loud, but my experience is that if you get a system to the state where it CAN go loud without distortion, then it will also sound correct in dealing with very soft material.

Frank

 

[fas42]

The real problem IMHO is not inside each of these ( stand alone ) audio items home designs but what surrounded each one for we can hear any " sound " through the speakers. Are all those recording audio links and those playback audio links the ones that degrade the music signal that preclude mimic a music live event at home. Unfortunately any of the electronic audio items as speakers can't work by it self/stand alone and unfortunately too we need yhe recording medium as the playback audio chain.

Maybe I'm wrong ( I don't know. ) but fas42 thinked that has something in " hand " that he can't explain in " terms " we can understand mainly because IMHO he is taking " false " premise ( for start analysis. ) in its whole statement in a way that his conclusions are " false " too. In the other side I think he only saw his point of view and yours, other persons one or mine are not important: Seems to me that he don't analyze what we posted here or at least he don't want to change not even 1 inch his position and in this way can't be any kind or part of agreement with his statements.

Sorry, I don't follow 100% what you're trying to convey, Raul. I am not trying to say other people are "wrong", just that it is possible to get more out a system than they currently think possible.

There is a simple test I use -- don't snigger, everyone! -- with your system working at a good "live" volume, can you walk up to the tweeter of one channel and not be able to hear it working; in other words, the speaker assembly is totally audibly invisible no matter how close you get to it?

Frank

 

[mep]

There is a simple test I use -- don't snigger, everyone! -- with your system working at a good "live" volume, can you walk up to the tweeter of one channel and not be able to hear it working; in other words, the speaker assembly is totally audibly invisible no matter how close you get to it?

Frank

Frank-This is exactly the type of statement you make that people roll their eyes at. It's simply not possible no matter what you say. If you stick your ear up to a tweeter at a loud volume and you can't hear it, guess what? Your tweeter is broke.

 

[fas42]

Frank-This is exactly the type of statement you make that people roll their eyes at. It's simply not possible no matter what you say. If you stick your ear up to a tweeter at a loud volume and you can't hear it, guess what? Your tweeter is broke.

I certainly understand that it makes sense to you that it is impossible; as I have said many times already, I got a shock when it first happened for me. It was a classic WTF moment!

I think I have a much better handle on this then I did some years ago, so I will throw in Gary's very nice buzzword: psychoacoustic. When sound is loud the ear/brain brings in its inbuit compression mechanism to protect itself, and to allow you to still keep hearing what's important. So when you put an ear to the tweeter this mechanism kicks in even harder, drops the effective volume experienced in the mind, so that the underlying distortions that the tweeter is obviously still pumping out are similarly dropped in intensity. At this point, provided the system is not significantly distorting more than at a lower volume level, the soundscape the mind is registering is still identical to that experienced further away, and the speaker is "invisible". A quick thought I just had is that reflected sound from the walls at this point may play a part in tricking the mind; in an open field or acoustically treated room this phenomenon may not be as easy to have happen.

This ear/brain behaviour is exactly the same thing that allows you, and the player, to stick your ear a foot away from a violin playing an intense solo, and not be deafened, still be aware what else is going on acoustically.

Frank

 

[fas42]

And I don’t care if you have hardwired your gear all the way back to the utility pole and soldered your speaker wires directly to the output devices of your amplifier, it can’t sound better/more real than live music.

Fair enough; I only say that because normally the microphones get the best seats in the house at the time of the recording. As Gary stated in a post, then the recorded event can sound better than what you experienced at the time.

Frank

 

[RogerD]

Frank-This is exactly the type of statement you make that people roll their eyes at. It's simply not possible no matter what you say. If you stick your ear up to a tweeter at a loud volume and you can't hear it, guess what? Your tweeter is broke.

lol!

Next time I have Morton Gould's Copland / Grofe living stereo SACD on at about 10:30 volume I'll have to do the Frank test. Seriously though,this CD has to be one of the best full orchestra recordings I have ever heard. It is complete with everything including a player piano,and music box.

If you can play this disc loud and hear beyond the back wall with the orchestra full tilt with out any congestion and plainly hear the action of the player piano,I think you have arrived,but most on this forum arrived a long time ago.

 

[garylkoh]

Fair enough; I only say that because normally the microphones get the best seats in the house at the time of the recording. As Gary stated in a post, then the recorded event can sound better than what you experienced at the time.

Frank

I have only encountered this ONCE in my life. I have always thought that reproduced sound can APPROACH live, but it can never be live. I was shocked to the core when that happened - and it happened recently. I think that both Jim Merod (the recording engineer) and I were equally shocked.

 

[RogerD]

I certainly understand that it makes sense to you that it is impossible; as I have said many times already, I got a shock when it first happened for me. It was a classic WTF moment!

I think I have a much better handle on this then I did some years ago, so I will throw in Gary's very nice buzzword: psychoacoustic. When sound is loud the ear/brain brings in its inbuit compression mechanism to protect itself, and to allow you to still keep hearing what's important. So when you put an ear to the tweeter this mechanism kicks in even harder, drops the effective volume experienced in the mind, so that the underlying distortions that the tweeter is obviously still pumping out are similarly dropped in intensity. At this point, provided the system is not significantly distorting more than at a lower volume level, the soundscape the mind is registering is still identical to that experienced further away, and the speaker is "invisible". A quick thought I just had is that reflected sound from the walls at this point may play a part in tricking the mind; in an open field or acoustically treated room this phenomenon may not be as easy to have happen.

This ear/brain behaviour is exactly the same thing that allows you, and the player, to stick your ear a foot away from a violin playing an intense solo, and not be deafened, still be aware what else is going on acoustically.

Frank

With a good recording don't most with a high level system experience speakers that become "invisible"?

If that isn't the case, I would think the illusion of "live" is impossible.

 

[fas42]

With a good recording don't most with a high level system experience speakers that become "invisible"?

If that isn't the case, I would think the illusion of "live" is impossible.

There was a whole thread some time back on this, "Invisible Speakers". My point is that the speakers should be invisible from anywhere in the room, not just around the prime listening position. This includes standing a couple of feet diagonally left of the left speaker, say. Most systems would fail to sustain the illusion at this point; my friend who's working hard on the analogue side of things has got it sounding very clean and musical on old recordings, nice soundstage in the middle but his speakers still are too obvious away from this spot.

Frank