Live vs. Reproduced?

[DaveyF]

To round this out, and for the benefit of having the key details here in the thread directly I will lift the appropriate paragraph from the post I referred to above:

"Staying with the cute baby speakers for a moment, there is a directly connected 3" full range driver which is quite surprisingly substantial, bit of a Tangband sort of thing, so no nasty crossovers here to cause problems. I would guess a usable frequency range somewhere about 150Hz to 14kHz or so. To give the top end a bit of a hand, and to look more impressive, a throwaway piezo (super?)tweeter in parallel; leaving it in doesn't hurt and it certainly helps, when putting an 18kHz signal through after thorough conditioning you can hear it working well. The main problem with the piezo is that you have to drive it hard for some time before it adds something significant, and positive to the output, and it cools down quickly, I have to keep a decent signal up to it virtually all the time to keep it on song."

Frank

Frank, what is your definition of "full range"?
Tim, the one thing that I think we can gleam from all of Frank's points and posts is that he appears to have a completely different idea as to what the sound of a 'live symphony in a hall' sounds like! Definitely in comparison to the rest of us a'philes
Which if this is true,and it certainly seems to be, will allow Frank to garner a lot of pleasure in his illusion.

 

[fas42]

Frank, what is your definition of "full range"?
Tim, the one thing that I think we can gleam from all of Frank's points and posts is that he appears to have a completely different idea as to what the sound of a 'live symphony in a hall' sounds like! Definitely in comparison to the rest of us a'philes

Full range is the term usually given to such speaker drivers in catalogues, there ain't no such animal you can buy off the shelf that is truly full range unless you go down the Fostex, etc, road. Which brings in another set of problems ...

So what bit of the 'live symphony in a hall' sound don't I get? My examples not good enough? Or you think it is impossible to get that sound from a playback system?

Frank

 

[RBFC]

Frank,

It seems that the controversy surrounding your stance on "improving systems and eliminating distortions" is heightened by the components you have chosen for the work you perform. Have you performed any of the afore-mentioned alterations on "mainstream" high-end gear? If you have, and can describe the benefits on specific components, this disclosure would go a long way toward providing a common reference for discussion.

Lee

 

[DaveyF]

To round this out, and for the benefit of having the key details here in the thread directly I will lift the appropriate paragraph from the post I referred to above:

"Staying with the cute baby speakers for a moment, there is a directly connected 3" full range driver which is quite surprisingly substantial, bit of a Tangband sort of thing, so no nasty crossovers here to cause problems. I would guess a usable frequency range somewhere about 150Hz to 14kHz or so. To give the top end a bit of a hand, and to look more impressive, a throwaway piezo (super?)tweeter in parallel; leaving it in doesn't hurt and it certainly helps, when putting an 18kHz signal through after thorough conditioning you can hear it working well. The main problem with the piezo is that you have to drive it hard for some time before it adds something significant, and positive to the output, and it cools down quickly, I have to keep a decent signal up to it virtually all the time to keep it on song."



Frank

Full range is the term usually given to such speaker drivers in catalogues, there ain't no such animal you can buy off the shelf that is truly full range unless you go down the Fostex, etc, road. Which brings in another set of problems ...

So what bit of the 'live symphony in a hall' sound don't I get? My examples not good enough? Or you think it is impossible to get that sound from a playback system?

Frank

Frank, the latter, the latter

To answer your question...'So what bit of the 'live symphony in a hall' sound don't I get....I would have to say...all of it!!

Anyhow, at this point, I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree

Have a g'day mate

 

[fas42]

Frank,

It seems that the controversy surrounding your stance on "improving systems and eliminating distortions" is heightened by the components you have chosen for the work you perform. Have you performed any of the afore-mentioned alterations on "mainstream" high-end gear? If you have, and can describe the benefits on specific components, this disclosure would go a long way toward providing a common reference for discussion.

Lee

Lee, thanks for the input. My earliest efforts were on a Yamaha CDX 1100 directly driving a Perreaux 2150B, talking to B&W DM10's. None of this is too shabby even by today's standards, and in fact I still have all this gear today, the only failure is one mid bass driver in a DM10 deciding to lose its magnet, the "glue" failed, and burnt out the coil. This setup got me my first good results, but it was too ephemeral, was very difficult to maintain the performance, mainly because at the time I wasn't game to do major surgery on the Yamaha and I didn't have a good enough handle on the important parameters.

The work done on these echos exactly what I have mentioned in regard to the HT receiver, being to hardwire everything in sight, significant work on power supply cleanup, both within and on the mains cables. I was one of those mad fellows who literally soldered the mains leads directly to the the spur wires in the wall cavity! Why so crazy? Because it made a difference, and I was chasing down what was going on! It didn't help in the big picture because at the time I didn't understand some of the other elements that had to be addressed. But it got me stretches of time when it was working as I have described, so I certainly knew what I was after.

The benefits of doing it on better gear are that the sound when not on song is more acceptable; the Yamaha even when not firing was still very smooth and listenable to on good recordings. When on song there is no difference in sound between the premium components and the current "cheap" stuff, the distortion of these units disappears into the background and you are only aware of the sound captured on the recording. In fact, the Philips now sounds better in many ways than that first combination back then, typically on very "bad" recordings, because a lot more issues have been addressed.

As I have mentioned several times, I deliberately went downmarket so that if I completely mangled the system through a major error it was no real loss, and it also meant that any lessons learnt would normally have an even greater benefit with more substantially engineered components.

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

Frank, I have to admit one thing...you are as true an a'phile as anyone here. You are chasing the 'holy grail' just like the rest of us. You might think you have found it...more power to you We may not think so, but if your novel approach is doing it for you, then my friend, I for one am actually impressed and I say again... more power to you

 

[fas42]

Frank, I have to admit one thing...you are as true an a'phile as anyone here. You are chasing the 'holy grail' just like the rest of us. You might think you have found it...more power to you We may not think so, but if your novel approach is doing it for you, then my friend, I for one am actually impressed and I say again... more power to you

Thanks, DaveyF, I appreciate that ...

My hope is that one or two others might decide to stick their toe in and give it a go, I would be happy to lend a hand as much as I can ...

Frank

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear fas42: +++++ " Your post is quite involved and covers many of the points made by people who suggest that it is hard or impossible to experience the "real" thing. " ++++++

I still support that is impossible to have bis a bis a live event recorded in a LP in a home audio system. IMHO there is no " black magic " here, please tell me how can you eliminate ( not only go lower. ) all those signal degradation process that happen through more than 100+ different additional steps where the original signal must pass? how is that you can " recover " the original POWER/DYNAMIC of music transientes ( between other things. )? , till you have a true explanation on this your efforts to continue in that " channel " ( with all respect. ) is futile for say the least.


IMHO the nearest we can be through our each one system to a live experience quality performance level is to feed directly to our system speakers the signal coming from any musical instrument " running " in our audio room but this is far away to be a normal/commercial recorded LP/CD.

Of course that any one that has the level/grade imagination you have can mimic a live symphonic event through his Walkman, not big deal!


Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[fas42]

I still support that is impossible to have bis a bis a live event recorded in a LP in a home audio system. IMHO there is no " black magic " here, please tell me how can you eliminate ( not only go lower. ) all those signal degradation process that happen through more than 100+ different additional steps where the original signal must pass? how is that you can " recover " the original POWER/DYNAMIC of music transientes ( between other things. )? , till you have a true explanation on this your efforts to continue in that " channel " ( with all respect. ) is futile for say the least.

The key point in what you are saying is that the recording has been degraded by the many steps taken in getting it into your home. Yes, I agree there is added distortion, but the trouble is that the home reproduction system then adds its own layer of distortion, and it is far more damaging distortion. The process of recording and translating into a marketable format did not involve any high power process, apart from the cutting lathe which uses the wattage for a purely mechanical operation. My experience is that once you have a device that requires a substantial power supply to do its job then that's where you really get into trouble. That's why work improving all aspects to do with feeding power into gear makes a big difference, and why headphones usually give people a more realistic experience, much less power needed.

The important thing with a recording is that no matter how poorly recorded, all the information that's necessary to experience a live reproduction, allowing you to experience the power and dynamics of the transients, is actually encoded in the media, mixed in with some distortion. The trick is to get your system working well enough so that the filtering mechanism built in to everyone's ear/brain can do its job well enough, of separating what you want to hear, the musical event, from what you don't want to hear, the distortion muck. To give you an example, a key test CD that is played constantly during my tweaking, is a cheap collection of famous big band tracks from the early 1930's: this is run at close to maximum volume, and I am listening to the bite, sweetness, bigness and yes, realism of the brass as a guide to where I'm up to.

How do I go about it? I suggest having a close read of my post, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2525-Invisible-speakers&p=33202&viewfull=1#post33202, and see if that makes sense at all.

Of interest, and as I mentioned before, I'm helping a friend with the analogue half of his setup, and he is starting to get some very nice sound from pretty old LP's now.

Frank

 

[silviajulieta]

The key point in what you are saying is that the recording has been degraded by the many steps taken in getting it into your home. Yes, I agree there is added distortion, but the trouble is that the home reproduction system then adds its own layer of distortion, and it is far more damaging distortion. The process of recording and translating into a marketable format did not involve any high power process, apart from the cutting lathe which uses the wattage for a purely mechanical operation. My experience is that once you have a device that requires a substantial power supply to do its job then that's where you really get into trouble. That's why work improving all aspects to do with feeding power into gear makes a big difference, and why headphones usually give people a more realistic experience, much less power needed.

The important thing with a recording is that no matter how poorly recorded, all the information that's necessary to experience a live reproduction, allowing you to experience the power and dynamics of the transients, is actually encoded in the media, mixed in with some distortion. The trick is to get your system working well enough so that the filtering mechanism built in to everyone's ear/brain can do its job well enough, of separating what you want to hear, the musical event, from what you don't want to hear, the distortion muck. To give you an example, a key test CD that is played constantly during my tweaking, is a cheap collection of famous big band tracks from the early 1930's: this is run at close to maximum volume, and I am listening to the bite, sweetness, bigness and yes, realism of the brass as a guide to where I'm up to.

How do I go about it? I suggest having a close read of my post, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2525-Invisible-speakers&p=33202&viewfull=1#post33202, and see if that makes sense at all.

Of interest, and as I mentioned before, I'm helping a friend with the analogue half of his setup, and he is starting to get some very nice sound from pretty old LP's now.

Frank

Dear fas42: +++++ " An advise that works for me: " Be truer to the recording: loosing and adding the less to the audio signal. " " +++++

this is something that I followed and follow word by word in deep by years. My system has no cable connectors even no electrical power connectors on any audio item ( including the Velodynes and including the system elctrical power supply box. . ) everything is soldered directly ( inside the speakers is the same. ), inside any of my system audio items the passive and active parts were choosen by its neutality and not because " these ones are higher on price then can be better. ". I don't use an electrical conditioner system power supply. Everything in my system audio items is tweacked from inside out from power supply stage to input/output stages even some audio items are self designs. Every kind of distortions are at minimum, no doubt about.

Here you can read something on how I attain that so low distortions level:

http://forums.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1115433273

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1286160563


but all these helps to have a better quality performance level but IMHO can't solve the main point: live vs recorded.


I'm not sure that you understand what I mean when speaked about Transientes/Power/Dynamics in live events against recorded/playback in a home audio system ( any ) and maybe could be useful for you that in the next 3-4 months you attend two times each week to a music live events and then comeback here and share your live experiences against your today system quality level performance.

Before you do that IMHO is useless and futile continue talking in your " channel " that's a way different one from mine and I think from many other " channel " of some persons in this thread.

Thank you to make me think and to help me to confirm that what we get in a live event can't be mimic in a home audio system, at least not yet!


Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.


Btw, the level degradation that any audio item power supply made depends mainly of the power supply design and not because higher or lower power.



+++++ " Lamm amps have worse declared distortion figures than what the specs state for the power IC's in my unit, .... " ++++++


I missed this statement you posted and that tell me that you have no single idea of what you are talking about. The IC designers use big amounts of dbs on feedback for those IC measures with low distortions figures but things are that those hundreds dbs of feedback generate distortions that are and goes against quality performance.

IC are used by manufacturers IMHO for two thigs/subjects: one is that the designer has no capacity to make a discrete design or the other one that's that the manufacturer design was in specific for a price target that usually is a low one.

Usually a well discrete design sounds not only better than an ICs one but a lot lot better ( Lamms or the name you want. ): orders of magnitude!!!!


You are a clever person because even with the " trash " ( with all respect and for say the least. ) of receiver you own you take our attention and time for so many posts!!!!!

 

[fas42]

+++++ " Lamm amps have worse declared distortion figures than what the specs state for the power IC's in my unit, .... " ++++++


I missed this statement you posted and that tell me that you have no single idea of what you are talking about. The IC designers use big amounts of dbs on feedback for those IC measures with low distortions figures but things are that those hundreds dbs of feedback generate distortions that are and goes against quality performance.

IC are used by manufacturers IMHO for two thigs/subjects: one is that the designer has no capacity to make a discrete design or the other one that's that the manufacturer design was in specific for a price target that usually is a low one.

Usually a well discrete design sounds not only better than an ICs one but a lot lot better ( Lamms or the name you want. ): orders of magnitude!!!!


You are a clever person because even with the " trash " ( with all respect and for say the least. ) of receiver you own you take our attention and time for so many posts!!!!!

Raul, please note my highlighting in the quote above. If you read what I have said in many posts carefully, it should be clear that I am not fussed about numbers: published distortion figures are like statistics, they can be twisted any which way to prove whatever you want -- that the performance of a component is brilliant, or that it must be abysmal. Because, if you actually look at the numbers, written on the documents issued by Lamm and by the maker of IC, then what I have said is true: if you believe in numbers then the IC must be superior to the Lamm.

All audiophiles know that numbers are close to almost being meaningless in determining whether a piece of equipment sounds good or not; other, more subtle factors, often not measurable by conventional test gear, determine how good a component sounds. The degree of tweaking you do, which mirrors my own, bears witness to that.

I have no trouble with feedback as a tool to achieving an end. The Lamm and all high end electronic components would fail to perform anywhere close to reasonable if the design did not involve feedback mechanisms intrinsic to the way the individual parts interact with each other. Where the confusion starts is that global negative feedback is thrown in as an afterthought, without deep understanding of how it should be engineered and therefore here feedback fails to be useful, and becomes something you can point a finger at, saying, see, listen to that terrible feedback corrupting the sound!

I'm not sure that you understand what I mean when speaked about Transientes/Power/Dynamics in live events against recorded/playback in a home audio system ( any ) and maybe could be useful for you that in the next 3-4 months you attend two times each week to a music live events and then comeback here and share your live experiences against your today system quality level performance.

Sorry, Raul, I do know. I have gotten into trouble with people on this forum many times, who keep insisting I can't possibly know, that I must be deluding myself. The thing is, live music is LOUD, LOUD, LOUD and the vast majority of systems when you wind up the volume to match that of live sound, they will DISTORT, DISTORT, DISTORT. I have listened to far too many ultra expensive systems ripping my ear drums to pieces with terrible sound if you listen at decently high volume levels.

The answer to the dilemma is exactly what you're doing, you have to tweak everything, and I mean everything, to get high level, undistorted sound. Unfortunately, you have to be fanatical, AND meticulous. If there is one key thing, I repeat, one key thing that is left undone then it is just not going to work!! A high performance Formula 1 car has one nut on a wheel left slightly loose: is it going to win the race or have a spectacular crash ...??

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

Frank, I do not really think live music is necessarily LOUD,LOUD,LOUD... what it has is PRESENCE. As i stated in my original post, the symphony I attended wasn't really all that loud at all... But it did have immense 'presence'
OTOH, it is true to say that there is no semblance of distortion whatsoever.

 

[fas42]

Frank, I do not really think live music is necessarily LOUD,LOUD,LOUD... what it has is PRESENCE. As i stated in my original post, the symphony I attended wasn't really all that loud at all... But it did have immense 'presence'
OTOH, it is true to say that there is no semblance of distortion whatsoever.

This is where words so often create barriers to understanding: how to truly convey to someone else the intent of a thought.

The word loud can mean a certain dB level, or it can signify the sense of a sound being very disturbing. I mean loud in the sense of the number as registering on a sound level meter, and I am sure that if you had had a sound level meter with you at the time in the live concert, it would shown a much higher reading than if you played a recording of the same piece on a normal system at what felt like a reasonable level. The live version didn't register to you as loud because there was no distortion, instead the volume registered, as you said, as having "immense presence". That experience, of great presence, is exactly what you're after in a sound system, that's why I say I play my little system at maximum volume; it really then is loud: I can go outside and hear it some distance away, with the doors and windows shut. If I go back inside it doesn't sound "loud", it just feels powerful, intense and somewhat overwhelming, just like the real thing ...

Frank

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i think that 'LOUD' is a poor choice of terms when trying to capture the essense of live music. yes, live music can be as 'LOUD' as it wants to be, but it's essense is the combination of a foundation and weight in low frequencies and ambience (which occurs just standing outside in real life, the bed of energy sounds are built upon), vivid clarity, and that unlimited dynamic range at all frequencies without lag time or 'blurring'.

the ease and immediacy of 'real life' dynamic range is what mostly sets 'live' appart from reproduced music. there is an 'un-leashed' aspect to live music......like the lid is removed.

is that carnivore that wants to have you as dinner really breathing behind you, or off to the side? which way to run? the wrong choice might mean death.

the fact that our ancestors could determine real verses false is why we can too.

it's why reasonance control has such an impact on the realism of a reproduction system. live music is perfectly focused and the leading edges of notes in real life are not blurred (or edgy and rough either). as we approach reality in a reproduction system (and never quite get there) system tuning and synergy become more the issues.

so a system which has that dynamic range at all frequencies, speed, ease, clarity, foundation, weight and synergy gets closest to live. and it helps to have the best possible sources and media.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

and that unlimited dynamic range at all frequencies without lag time or 'blurring'.

You must have really good seats.

Tim

 

[silviajulieta]

Raul, please note my highlighting in the quote above. If you read what I have said in many posts carefully, it should be clear that I am not fussed about numbers: published distortion figures are like statistics, they can be twisted any which way to prove whatever you want -- that the performance of a component is brilliant, or that it must be abysmal. Because, if you actually look at the numbers, written on the documents issued by Lamm and by the maker of IC, then what I have said is true: if you believe in numbers then the IC must be superior to the Lamm.

All audiophiles know that numbers are close to almost being meaningless in determining whether a piece of equipment sounds good or not; other, more subtle factors, often not measurable by conventional test gear, determine how good a component sounds. The degree of tweaking you do, which mirrors my own, bears witness to that.

I have no trouble with feedback as a tool to achieving an end. The Lamm and all high end electronic components would fail to perform anywhere close to reasonable if the design did not involve feedback mechanisms intrinsic to the way the individual parts interact with each other. Where the confusion starts is that global negative feedback is thrown in as an afterthought, without deep understanding of how it should be engineered and therefore here feedback fails to be useful, and becomes something you can point a finger at, saying, see, listen to that terrible feedback corrupting the sound!


Sorry, Raul, I do know. I have gotten into trouble with people on this forum many times, who keep insisting I can't possibly know, that I must be deluding myself. The thing is, live music is LOUD, LOUD, LOUD and the vast majority of systems when you wind up the volume to match that of live sound, they will DISTORT, DISTORT, DISTORT. I have listened to far too many ultra expensive systems ripping my ear drums to pieces with terrible sound if you listen at decently high volume levels.

The answer to the dilemma is exactly what you're doing, you have to tweak everything, and I mean everything, to get high level, undistorted sound. Unfortunately, you have to be fanatical, AND meticulous. If there is one key thing, I repeat, one key thing that is left undone then it is just not going to work!! A high performance Formula 1 car has one nut on a wheel left slightly loose: is it going to win the race or have a spectacular crash ...??

Frank

Dear fas42: Loud?, many times but not always. This is what I posted in an answer to you but maybe you don't have the time to read it:



++++++ "
the transients speed on each music's note of those 90-100+ instrument voices are " stopped "/changed/disturbed by nothing as its time decay too. This " factor/characteristic " mainly define the dynamic on music that's is so unique in live events against recorded music where there is no way to hear it.

All those happen it does not matters the SPL at any time we are hearing that live concert/event/music score. We heard with the same sensation/sensitivity/feeling of dynamic the same in a violin pizzicato that on a Flute fortissimo, the feeling of dynamics always is there independent of SPL of what we are hearing or the " color/power " of the instrument or set of instruments.... " +++++





As I posted twice you need to go/attend in the forward three months twice a week to live events and listen, listen, listen and listen. IMHO you really have no idea about or you are talking of something way different.


++++++++ " Sorry, Raul, I do know. I have gotten into trouble with people on this forum many times, who keep insisting I can't possibly know, that I must be deluding myself. " +++++

IMHO the trouble is that you think you know but through your posts you show that your knowledge-ignorance level on: what happen in a live event at three meters or what you hear it? it to low-high.

IMHO the only " know " subject you " know " is the benefits to tweack an audio system trying that distortions goes lower and that's all. Lower distortions does not means in anyway we can mimic at home a live event through recorded signal, only shows that we can enjoy recorded music with a better quality performance level: NOTHING MORE.

IMHO you don't post any evidence/facts that prove with out question that we can mimic a live event at home through a LP/CD playback. You can follow talking and talking on the whole subject but if you want that all of us agree with you or at least one of us IMHO you need to show facts and not mere words that means nothing because has no main/direct relationship with a live music event and its " meaning ".

Do you think that everyone is wrong but you?, if yes then prove it: easy as that!




Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You must have really good seats.

Tim

not exactly sure what you are referring to, but i'm not suggesting that anyone, let alone me, has unlimited dynamic range at all frequencies with no lag time. but real life does and we enjoy it every minute of every day.

 

[Steve williams]

I think he means good seats at the live event

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think he means good seats at the live event

I do.

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think he means good seats at the live event

makes sense....i get it.

but my perspective is that anything 'live' is unlimited in terms of dynamics and frequency in terms of being 'complete'. in other words, it's not limited by some 'lens' of the reproduction chain.

so if you were in the room with someone playing the piano (without amplification of any sort) you would hear everything that could be heard from your listening position based on the limitations of your hearing and full body senses and the room acoustics. the dynamics would be 'unlimited' at all frequencies....as opposed to hearing a recording or even playback of the live mic feed which would have limits.