Live vs. Reproduced?

[Phelonious Ponk]

As a final note, fascinating how good old money reared its ugly head again. The audiophile attitude that unless you throw decent amounts of cash at a problem then you haven't got a hope of achieving significant results is again in evidence.

Frank

Sorry, Frank. I'm a dauntless defender of the smart but affordable and often go so far as to opine that I could get better fidelity out of a couple of thousand dollars worth of well-chosen pro gear than most audiophiles get at any price (double that money and I'll even get the bass). That's not what this is about at all. You've come here claiming to have the keys to the kingdom, the magic methodology that opens the door to everything audiophiles have been seeking for decades: Utterly life-like, distortion-free reproduction. You even have added in a couple of things that audiophiles, pros, and physics long ago ruled out. You have claimed to be the magic man, the wizard. But whenever we get a peek behind your curtain, a view at what you usually talk about only in broad, philosophical terms, what we see is a guy re-soldering the speaker connections and changing the batteries in a transistor radio.

The kindest conclusion we can reach is that you have a wonderful imagination. And that has nothing to do with how much money anyone has spent on gear.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

PS: While I'm certain you're not being honest with yourself, I'm not even sure you're being honest with us --

When I look closely, do I not see the shadow of a tweeter above those "full-range" 3" drivers? Which would mean there is a very cheap passive crossover in there. Which would mean you have plenty of non-linear distortion remaining in your system. More than you would ever have a chance of eliminating by bi-passing some spring-clip speaker connections.

I not only think what you imagine you're achieving is impossible, I'm not at all sure you're addressing the issues necessary to accomplish what is possible.

Tim

 

[terryj]

frank, download REW. it's free.

do some distortion measurements on your 3 inch drivers at various frequencies.

post the results (or not, dos not matter too much)

and have a look at your low distortion measurements.

I've gotta tell you those 'hi end systems' you are referring to that were no good, well they WERE no good.

Go listen to a decent system, then come back and tell me it compares to 3 inch drivers.

I nearly fell for it a few days ago, thought 'hmm, maybe I should go and have a listen'. See, my system does a damn good stab at the live sound (more rock concert than classical), pretty damn good but not really the same (in many ways better, depending on the venue yada yada)

But there is *something* about the live....and I have eight tens and an eighteen as subs, two 18's as woofers and ten inch lower mids.......but it still does not quite do it.

damn good but.....

so it is not a matter of looking at your picture, being a snob and going 'pooft'. I am basing it on a greater level of experience than that.

 

[mep]

PS: While I'm certain you're not being honest with yourself, I'm not even sure you're being honest with us --

When I look closely, do I not see the shadow of a tweeter above those "full-range" 3" drivers? Which would mean there is a very cheap passive crossover in there. Which would mean you have plenty of non-linear distortion remaining in your system. More than you would ever have a chance of eliminating by bi-passing some spring-clip speaker connections.

I not only think what you imagine you're achieving is impossible, I'm not at all sure you're addressing the issues necessary to accomplish what is possible.

Tim

Tim-On my computer monitor, I can clearly see the tweeter shadow on Frank's speakers. Not that it really matters or impacts what everyone has already said. Frank just has an LOPB system (Laws of Physics Buster).

I normally try and just let go most things Frank says, but sometimes you just can't help yourself from clacking the keys and responding.

 

[silviajulieta]

Take that all you analog/tube loving wackos out there! Hey wait, that’s me.

Dear mep: In audio, IMHO, everyone of us have a knowledge-ignorance level: What we talk, post, think, discuss, agree, disagree and obviously our each home audio system quality performance reflect that inherent knowledge-ignorance level.


In any audio discussion as nearest is the knowledge-ignorance level of the persons in that discussion/anlysis as better are the agrement posibilities by all. In the same way when the knowledge-ignorance level between persons is so wide usually the discussion goes endless because the first non-conscious reaction of the higher ignorance level/lower knowledge level persons is " negation " because they did/do not understand the " whole subject ". In this case always help a " learn attitude " against that " negation " factor.

Anyway, I never try to insult any one as I always wait that the other persons do the same with me.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear fas42: I don't go to analyze what your system can do and what can't do, I think I know more or less which could be its quality performance level that btw is not important when we are talking of recorded vs live event.

IMHO you as some other persons in this thread are still speaking of the real thing/event and how we can get that kind of quality performance at home.

I posted several facts/reasons why you or any one else can't mimic a live event in the same micro positions where the recording was made, seems to me that what I posted were not enough and we need some adding explanation/information for we can stop ( by good reasons. ) to speak about " the real thing vs recorded one ". Of course that you have the right to following talking of what you want: mine is only an opinion. Well here we go:


What IMHO is the main differences between a live event ( symphonic one or a jazz/blus one. ) heard it at 3-4 meters against what we heard at home on that event? is it about loudness/SPL? is it about moving more air? is it about bass management? is it because us? what happen " there " that does not happen and can't happen at home in any audio system?:


in a live event we have 90-100+ instrument voices each one ( between other things. ) in its own " space " , each one with its own " sound color " and each one with its own differences on SPL over the full running score.
What is what exist ( in this concert environment. ) between the music and you?: just air, what could affect your perception of the music on this " air " medium?: air friction where music travels and your ears's FR, THD and IMD capacity: almost nothing more.

the transients speed on each music's note of those 90-100+ instrument voices are " stopped "/changed/disturbed by nothing as its time decay too. This " factor/characteristic " mainly define the dynamic on music that's is so unique in live events against recorded music where there is no way to hear it.

All those happen it does not matters the SPL at any time we are hearing that live concert/event/music score. We heard with the same sensation/sensitivity/feeling of dynamic the same in a violin pizzicato that on a Flute fortissimo, the feeling of dynamics always is there independent of SPL of what we are hearing or the " color/power " of the instrument or set of instruments. The power of the live music is unique and IMHO impossible to mimic at home through a recorded LP/CD/R2R/DTR or any other recording medium.


What happen at home? what are we hearing?, well we are hearing a double process that affects mainly that music live dynamics/power ( through the transients travel in free air medium. ) characteristics. Those transients/time decay and its speed were grossy affected by hundreds of steps ( I posted some of them. ) before we can hear it .

In one side the recording process alter the integrity of the original music signal if not only because that music signal must travel dozens/hundres meters not through air ( where flow " easy ". ) but through electronic parts, cables/wires, connectors, circuit boards, etc, etc. In each of these meters/mms./cms. the music signal is loosing " integrity and identity " with the original one.

IN the other process where the signal must pass the signal is added of many a lot of different kind ( linear and non-linear., analog or digital. ) distortions, noises, colorations, resonances, vibrations, etc etc. that destroy the original signal.


It is here in those two process where the signal lose its POWER/DYNAMICS where those transients almost disappear and that's why the " feeling " is way way different between live and recorded.

This POWER/DYNAMICS live music characteristic is the one that permit that you can distinguish the sound of any instrument " running " live against the same " recorded score/tones " it does not matters that you heard it at 50 meters from there and out of your sight. As I said it: " nothing " but the air between music and you or you and the music.


Those posts that many of us like to post ( including me . ) where we states: " what I heard in my system in that recording was like the " real thing " ", " last night I heard a recording that piut me right in the venue with the players " or " the players were in front of me in my room ", are only a misunderstood and IMHO a faulty way to explain what in reality we are hearing in each one home audio system.

I know that we will following speaking on that way but IMHO makes no sense as something real but only a well hopping metaphor.

Of course that I can be wrong but today and with my knowledge-ignorance level is what I think on the whole subject.


Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[mep]

Raul-Because of my ignorance, I don’t understand the point you are trying to make here. I think you said if people are equally ignorant they can agree on things and if one person is less ignorant than the other person, they can’t agree because the more ignorant person is too ignorant to understand what the less ignorant person is trying to tell him. Man, that sounds ignorant due to all of the ignorance.

You’re an interesting guy Raul. You claim the mantra of being an analog expert due to all of your experience compared to other people’s lack thereof which of course makes them ignorant. So while you are busy handing out advice on what cartridge to buy, what tonearm to buy, how to set up your table, etc., you turn right around and tell people how ignorant they are for listening to analog because it is so flawed and digital is so perfect. I’m probably being ignorant, but I don’t get the dichotomy in your thinking.

 

[silviajulieta]

Dear mep: I think there is no real dichotomy in the stict sense but more that I learned. Any one of us has the right to learn and through that learning process make/made some changes in our opinions.

I learned and accept that digital is better than any analog source but this " learned " does not means I can't follow enjoying the analog alternative because I still enjoy it.

What I'm doing now is that instead to go and take refuge on R2R analog alternative ( some of my audio friends here are already " crazy " about R2R alternative and that's is a good thing over the LP alternative but way out of the digital one that IMHO today is the one to beat. ) try to improve my digital source and my digital software.

I'm not against analog or in favor of digital but in favor of MUSIC, that's all: no dichotomy.

Can't you enjoy both mediums inside its own each one limitations?, because this is what I do, no big deal.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[mep]

I do enjoy both mediums Raul. In fact, I’m enjoying digital more every day. And I would agree that R2R sounds superior to LP playback. Does that make us mutually ignorant?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim-On my computer monitor, I can clearly see the tweeter shadow on Frank's speakers. Not that it really matters or impacts what everyone has already said. Frank just has an LOPB system (Laws of Physics Buster).

You're right Mark, it doesn't matter much, because the results Frank reports are absurd from any reasonable perspective, but it matters because his whole schtick is based on rooting out and eliminating the small distortions, while he's leaving the really big ones - cheap passive crossovers in cheap two-way speakers (not to mention clipping) - unaddressed. This whole thing is either an elaborate joke, or massively uninformed. For my part, I think I've stared at and commented on this wreck on the side of the road long enough. Time to move on...

Tim

 

[mep]

Tim-I try and bite my tongue most of the time. But like I said, sometimes you just feel like you have to say something. I have actually compiled a list of some of the things that have been said that are totally outrageous but decided not to post them so I wouldn't see the green ink. They are pretty funny when they are all strung together in one spot.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

tim-i try and bite my tongue most of the time. But like i said, sometimes you just feel like you have to say something. I have actually compiled a list of some of the things that have been said that are totally outrageous but decided not to post them so i wouldn't see the green ink. They are pretty funny when they are all strung together in one spot.

pm?

 

[fas42]

pm?

+1

Frank

 

[fas42]

Dear fas42: I don't go to analyze what your system can do and what can't do, I think I know more or less which could be its quality performance level that btw is not important when we are talking of recorded vs live event.

IMHO you as some other persons in this thread are still speaking of the real thing/event and how we can get that kind of quality performance at home.

Raul, thanks for your helpful comments. Your post is quite involved and covers many of the points made by people who suggest that it is hard or impossible to experience the "real" thing. To repeat the analogy that I made recently, a very old one I know, the speaker should be a window onto the sound. A real, open, window onto a live performance will sound real when you're sitting at the window. The trick is to mimic that window with a speaker, and that is possible, because I have experienced it. And the simple test is to be next to the speaker and listen with your ear a few inches from the tweeter or equivalent. The test fails if you are aware of the speaker drivers, it succeeds if you cannot discern that the sound is coming from the drivers. It's a very simple, yes, no, test. Only a very, very tiny number apparently have experienced this, which then feeds into your knowledge-ignorance thoughts. If it is has never happened to yourself or someone you know, then you can't comprehend that it can happen.

The extra benefit of having a system working at this level is that it allows the ear/brain to quite easily filter out the extraneous muck from "bad" recordings of all sorts: the mind then does an excellent job of translating the good information into a completely believable soundscape. A fairly extreme example is a Nellie Melba CD of recordings made in the early 1910's, you can play this at completely realistic sound levels without apparent harshness and hear the piano accompaniment from the instrument some 20 feet behind her come through cleanly and convincingly.

Frank

 

[fas42]

When I look closely, do I not see the shadow of a tweeter above those "full-range" 3" drivers? Which would mean there is a very cheap passive crossover in there. Which would mean you have plenty of non-linear distortion remaining in your system. More than you would ever have a chance of eliminating by bi-passing some spring-clip speaker connections.

Tim and Mark, if I were nasty I would suggest that you both must get tired quickly when reading. Go back and read more carefully the post http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...uth-and-Tonality&p=43530&viewfull=1#post43530 to which this image is attached ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

You have claimed to be the magic man, the wizard. But whenever we get a peek behind your curtain, a view at what you usually talk about only in broad, philosophical terms, what we see is a guy re-soldering the speaker connections and changing the batteries in a transistor radio.

Tim, the appropriate response to your somewhat disparaging remarks is to refer you to post http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2525-Invisible-speakers&p=33202&viewfull=1#post33202
and suggest you read it several times to allow the content to properly sink in.

I'm a dauntless defender of the smart but affordable and often go so far as to opine that I could get better fidelity out of a couple of thousand dollars worth of well-chosen pro gear than most audiophiles get at any price (double that money and I'll even get the bass). That's not what this is about at all.

You said "you're running the amps in a cheap home theater in a box flat out," so this is certainly what some of this is about ...

Frank

 

[DaveyF]

Frank, One question...when was the last time you went to hear a live symphony orchestra?
No fibbing now...

 

[fas42]

Frank, One question...when was the last time you went to hear a live symphony orchestra?
No fibbing now...

Fibbing ... tsk,tsk ...?

I can't throw up a biggie at the Sydney Opera House, that was many, many years ago. Though I do remember I was somewhat disappointed at the time. Luckily the local area supports a decent orchestra which I heard at the main community centre, probably only 30 feet away from the action, about a year ago. Downside was that string section intonation was very suspect(!!); percussion was excellent, had a young chap with a drum kit who really knew his stuff; some very nice trumpet solo work. Nicely resonant acoustics, created a rich, full sound. Last effort along these lines a bit later on was 20 feet away from the local chamber orchestra, we have an in-law who plays cello, in a small church hall. This was very good: very rich, sweet strings nicely echoing off the brick walls, very big enveloping sound.

There was another interesting effort at the community centre, a hodge podge of musical items, 2 extremely good singers doing some of the famous female classical bon bons. Also, a tuba ensemble, quite bizarre, the biggest, fattest tuba played by a young teenage girl! But very nice playing and sound.

So, all in all, quite a decent array to keep the ears in tune ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim and Mark, if I were nasty I would suggest that you both must get tired quickly when reading.

Not tired, Frank, just weary. I confess I've been skimming your post for a long time. Still, there is a tweeter in there. Are you sure the 3" is a "full-range?" Are you sure there is no crossover?

You said "you're running the amps in a cheap home theater in a box flat out," so this is certainly what some of this is about ...

Not at all. In this case my use of the word cheap is totally unrelated to price. Now, as badly as I think some of this nonsense needs answering, I think I'll leave this discussion.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Not tired, Frank, just weary. I confess I've been skimming your post for a long time. Still, there is a tweeter in there. Are you sure the 3" is a "full-range?" Are you sure there is no crossover?



Not at all. In this case my use of the word cheap is totally unrelated to price. Now, as badly as I think some of this nonsense needs answering, I think I'll leave this discussion.

Tim

To round this out, and for the benefit of having the key details here in the thread directly I will lift the appropriate paragraph from the post I referred to above:

"Staying with the cute baby speakers for a moment, there is a directly connected 3" full range driver which is quite surprisingly substantial, bit of a Tangband sort of thing, so no nasty crossovers here to cause problems. I would guess a usable frequency range somewhere about 150Hz to 14kHz or so. To give the top end a bit of a hand, and to look more impressive, a throwaway piezo (super?)tweeter in parallel; leaving it in doesn't hurt and it certainly helps, when putting an 18kHz signal through after thorough conditioning you can hear it working well. The main problem with the piezo is that you have to drive it hard for some time before it adds something significant, and positive to the output, and it cools down quickly, I have to keep a decent signal up to it virtually all the time to keep it on song."

Frank