Live vs. Reproduced?

If the system is very well sorted out, when someone walks in front of the loudspeaker, you don't hear the "shadow". Very few systems can do this.
Excellent concept! Yes, I understand exactly what you're referring to, and I would say it occurs because so many acoustic clues are coming from so many directions that the absolutely direct sound is not actually necessary for the ear/brain to reconstruct the sound event. Agreed, very hard to get a system to that point, but very satisfying. The major difference I possibly would have with you is that I would say it is all to do with the electronics, rather than the nature and setup of the speaker.

Added correction: it would be the ear/brain compression mechanism I just mentioned probably doing most of the work. It instantly brings up the fader when the sound level momentarily drops to perfectly compensate, and then pulls it down again. Marvellous stuff!

Frank
 
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I agree - it's harder to convincingly do a full orchestra or big band. I have NEVER heard a system do a high-school marching band convincingly..... but that may be because I've never heard a band like that well recorded. May be someone will jump in here with a suggestion - and it'll cost me more money.

IMHO a single instrument or solo voice is also difficult to do so convincingly. What's in between - a jazz quartet, or a chamber group is easier than a solo harp. But then again, it might be the recording.....

Gary, you must have read my mind:D:D.. Today, I went to hear our junior high marching band, which my nephew plays in--:cool: I wasn't going to bring this up, because once again, the sound of the band was leagues away from what our systems can reproduce:(
If anyone thinks that they have a system that can create an accurate and realistic reproduction of either a 'live' marching band or a 'live' full orchestra in their homes...then I suggest that they once again go and listen to the 'live' event and after that get back to me:cool::D
BTW, I really don't think that it is the recording medium that is at fault here..there are some very good recordings of marching bands out there. I believe our gear is simply not able to come close to reproducing these events.:(
 
My experience with solo instrument recodings is that, with very few exceptions, the mix tries to "spread out" the sound across the speakers to fill out the room. I like harps, but they don't sound realistic when they sound like they are 10 feet across and all around the room.

I played in marching band, and a drum and bugle corp. I don't mind not hearing them sound convincingly live... ;) It would be easy to record them from the stadium seat, but the sound most of us expect puts us in the action, and that would be very difficult with the performers moving all over the field. That said, many years ago one of the DCI finals (I think) was recorded quite well -- wish I still had that one! They set up a stereo pair around the leader's podium (a fancy stepladder/small stage type thing on the sideline at the 50 yd point) with a few extra mics up and down the sidelines on both sides of the field. The resulting mix captured both the sound and the feel of motion, with enough of the stadium sound to put you there but not enough to destroy the sound quality from all the reflections.
 
Gary, please correct me where I've got things crooked. This is my understanding of the matter.

Frank my friend, one of the biggest reasons for having large speakers is precisely to avoid distortion. Thermal distortion being the major in this case. Every driver has its physical limits in this regard when it is run agreed? They have limits in excursion and coil saturation. Even a planar which technically has no coils will at some point have the clamped edges send reflections back into their membrane at levels that will distort the sound.

Playing loud IS moving a lot of air. What we are talking about is what you are talking about, doing it cleanly. Every doubling of drivers will raise the output potential by 3dB per side and cut the potential for thermal distortion in half. No surprise then that dynamic speakers that get closest to live are typically line sources or D'Appolitos with large bass units. Then there are horns, whose moths and cavities serve to amplify and direct the energy is specific ways. I hope the horn folks like Tom Danley and Tony Ky Ma can help explain this further.

To get what Davey is after, we have to imagine this big bloom and dynamics in 3 dimensions not in a sum of directions going one way like a ray tracer. I'm talking about compression and rarefaction in every airspace at any specific time after launch as well as any resonances with anything we are in direct contact with. So, the manner in which an impulse is launched, it's directivity and propagation pattern is only a part of the equation albeit a large one. This is the one way direction. The 3D way of looking at things includes reverberation and contact resonance. Let's compare and contrast.

What a large enclosed space brings to the table are no early reflection, long reverberation times and distance from the sound source. The early reflections can be dealt with in a small space, you are limited to the long reverberations in the recording, and there is no way to create more distance from the speakers than your room allows. In a small space to best reproduce the long reverberations in the recording you have to shorten the reverberation time of your own space so it won't ring and eventually stack up unevenly as nodes which will overpower and practically render what's on the recording unrecognizable.

To get the "sense" of live, at least in the way I think I Davey is referring to, localization (like Tim pointed out) is actually not so much the issue. Pinpoint imaging as we have come to call it, is pretty much an aid we use to make up for the lack of visual cues we have on hand at a live setting. Tom Mallin wrote an excellent article right here on WBF dealing with the subject. Like what a lot of people say, it isn't natural and in most cases they are right but like Tom said, depending on what your priorities are, surreal can be better than real.

The "sense of live", on the other hand, is a physical sense of envelopment on the entire body achievable only by being able to feel the sound pressure without even having to think about it. It is felt greatest with the parts of the body exposed directly to the wave front transient, but the reverberating moving air is felt on every part of exposed or lightly covered skin or through any surface we are in physical contact with like our clothes, the floor or our chairs. Think direct plus reflected sound felt and not heard. A zero distortion top end does not guarantee the feeling just by saying that you can crank it up higher because the system is not distorting. You've still got to expend the energy and convert it multiple ways. Who was it that said that perception is our only link with reality but perceptions are not reality? God Bless him whoever he is.

Let's relate this to trends. Multiple subwoofers, room acoustics, every conceivable polar pattern from highly directional to omnipolar. The assertion of many, including myself, that all things being equal, multiple channels will get you much closer to the "feeling", orders of magnitude closer. Why? I submit that it is because of more even sensory input of sound pressure on the body from every direction.

Finally to illustrate this, let's talk Binaural. Binaural is probably the best we have as far as being able to record a live event and play it back with the most ambient cue information preserved of course listened through head phones. Yet, it doesn't feel live does it. To me at least it is just as surreal because it feels like everything is happening from the neck up. It's a dissociative feeling, it's immersive but you can't help but feel detached from reality rather than being in it. In another forum I actually joked that my friend try and sit on a subwoofer. I told him to lock the door lest he look utterly bonkers. I was just partially joking. I knew it would help him get grounded. How did I know? Don't ask. :)
 
Yes, as mentioned before my brother plays the saxophone: a good blast from that 2 feet away shames nearly all systems ...

Frank
Now I think you are beginning to see what I am referring to.:D Multiply the sax by ten and add trumpets ( say five or so) bassoons, tymps, kettle drum, violins ( say five or so), cellos, flutes( say five or so), double bass, cymbals and so on and I think you may begin to see what I am talking about in the area of 'bloom'. To say that this system- called an orchestra- shames any home system is IMO an understatement!:) If your system can truly 'hang' with that..Well:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
I believe our gear is simply not able to come close to reproducing these events.:(
unless it is set up correctly. Excise all weakness, correct reproduction will happen.

When I first got somewhere with this whole exercise I was sometimes disappointed listening to the real thing. The microphones are usually setup in the best possible position to pick up the sound, your seat in the audience is frequently very second class to this prime location ...

Frank
 
If your system can truly 'hang' with that..Well
Because all of this everything is much further than 2 feet away, and the sound of the instruments are not purely additive, meaming there is not an enormously loud, enormously complex sound.

A thought experiment that I mentioned in another, wrong thread (naughty, naughty, ruler across the wrist) ...

Orchestra in concert hall, soundproof room built in prime audience position. You inside, drill small hole in wall facing orchestra, nicely smooth it in all the right ways, stick one ear against the hole. Would it sound real or not real? Then fill hole, stick microphone on outside of patched up hole, stick top notch headphone driver on other side and connect the two with your best amp, whatever. How would that compare?

Frank
 
Because all of this everything is much further than 2 feet away, and the sound of the instruments are not purely additive, meaming there is not an enormously loud, enormously complex sound.

A thought experiment that I mentioned in another, wrong thread (naughty, naughty, ruler across the wrist) ...

Orchestra in concert hall, soundproof room built in prime audience position. You inside, drill small hole in wall facing orchestra, nicely smooth it in all the right ways, stick one ear against the hole. Would it sound real or not real? Then fill hole, stick microphone on outside of patched up hole, stick top notch headphone driver on other side and connect the two with your best amp, whatever. How would that compare?



Frank
Frank, I really do not understand your post..:confused:
Can you not tell immediately the difference between the sound of a live instrument and a reproduced instrument?:confused:
I do agree that once in a while one can get 'fooled' into thinking it's live when listening to a great system, But I think that applies more to music other than a full symphonic orchestra or marching band, as Gary brought up.
I personally have never heard a system that really comes close to reproducing what I heard yesterday in the symphony hall. I have heard some of the very best systems in the world, including the big Wilson's, the Infinity IRS'es, the big Wisdom's, Maggies, the Martens, The Scaena's, Magico's and numerous others...none, I repeat none, have come anywhere near close to the 'live' event of a full tilt orchestra in a symphony hall. I can always point to the numerous differences in the 'live' vs. reproduced sound. When HP coined the term 'The Absolute Sound' I think he was spot on with his thinking. IMHO, we are a VERY long way away from being able to get there...again, just IMHO.:D
 
@Tom

Even in a forest we feel the air. We feel the wind, and can feel the relative humidity in the absence of it. The sound of the wind and the feel of it is coincident or at least our brains process it that way. Just a few weeks ago I was treated to one of my ultimate audio experiences. I was lying on a day bed with my eyed closed just listening to the surf, wind and the laughter of children. Amazing how I could feel the rhythm of the gentle crashing of the waves through the day bed. The Big Guy upstairs makes the ultimate audio systems! :) I do get your point as well and appreciate it. I'm guilty of the headphones and sub thing by the way. My daughter thought I was nuts. I should've locked the door ;) ;) ;)

What we often forget is that hearing is a total body experience. 1/10the body exposure has absorption coefficients from 20kHz to 1kHz similar to 3 inches of compressed fiberglass. Below that we've got about half the absorption which is still a lot. Now think of the thousands upon thousands of nerve endings on our skin and hair follicles. The body effects may not be obvious but neither do we feel the effect of multiples of our own weight on the soles of our feet every time we walk, step, hop or run even if these nerves are sensitive enough to make us go into fits with a pin prick or a feather. It's a bit like focus vs. peripheral vision. We could be watching the principle action on a wide screen but it is the filling up of the peripheral spaces with imagery that gives us the sense of scale and envelopment.

@Frank

It won't happen Frank, I'm no expert. That book would probably contain more misinformation than information. Besides, I'll only give it a thought if I can get past even one paragraph without my spell checker or grammar checker doing their red and green underlining thing. I know you're kidding but I'm not. Hahahahaha.
 
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Frank, I really do not understand your post..
Sorry about that! Just trying to say that your ear in the right situation, that is, at a live event can pick up the sound being real. Replace your ear in that position with a good mic and directly pass the signal from that to a good speaker driver then it should sound no different, because the ear is no better than a mic at picking up sound.

In fact, research has shown that the ear is truly appalling as a microphone, you would never, ever buy it as a piece of equipment to do the job. It's only that the brain gets into the act and sorts out the mess that allows a reasonable job of hearing things to come out the other end ...

Can you not tell immediately the difference between the sound of a live instrument and a reproduced instrument?
When my system is not working right, dead easy. If it is working right it's convincing enough for me!

Frank
 
Besides, I'll only give it a thought if I can get past even one paragraph without my spell checker or grammar checker doing their red and green underlining thing. I know you're kidding but I'm not. Hahahahaha.
So you'll need to spend more time at the Apple/Microsoft bashing thread. By gum, surely by now they should have come up with software that knows exactly what you're trying to say!!:mad::D

Frank
 
I write on MS software running on an Apple OS. Where does that leave me in that debate? I can't even get my parents to understand what I'm saying, I doubt Jobs or Ballmer could understand me either! ;) ;) ;)
 
Frank, when I am referring to 'bloom' what I am trying to describe is the ability of the orchestra to seemingly envelope the hall in sound...however, not multi-directional sound, because one can clearly hear that the music originates in the front of the hall.
Frankly, (no pun intended) I do not believe that your system, or for that matter any system, can reproduce the sound of a live orchestra in full tilt. The orchestra i heard last night had about fifty musicians playing all kinds of instruments. I have heard most of the very best large speakers that are available and none of them even comes close to being able to reproduce that 'bloom' or sense of 'majestic expansion' for want of a better word if you will. As I said before, the music wasn't that loud, but the dynamics and overall 'gestalt' ( I know I'm beginning to sound like JV...Yikes:(:() was clearly
what delineates the real from the reproduced. BTW, I do think that our systems do a much better job with the small ensemble..be it jazz or ?

I think it's very possible to produce some of what I call the power and majesty of a orchestra,not to the same degree of the real thing ,but a very pleasing recreation. The sound level is not overally loud either,not clipping by any means.
 
In my experience "some" isn't all that hard. It's "a lot off" that is. :)
 
Jack's right, "some" isn't what we are talking about. Listening live to an orchestra and then to your system and you will notice the "rest" is missing...and IMHO, the "rest" is an awful lot:(:(
 
I think it's very possible to produce some of what I call the power and majesty of a orchestra,not to the same degree of the real thing ,but a very pleasing recreation. The sound level is not overally loud either,not clipping by any means.
Yes, it doesn't have to be loud, it just sounds like you are somewhat further away from the action, but that that action IS the real thing. The extra special bonus, which has been mentioned elsewhere many times, is that when the system is working this well, you can turn the volume down and down and down, and it stays real, it just gets further away. I can have it on a volume setting of 2 out of 40, whatever that means, and it's all still happening, my system is now a set of top notch headphones ...

Frank
 
I certainly agree with you on this one, Tim, good bass is not essential for detail to be resolved. In fact, I can remember reading that the brain will reconstruct the fundamental of a bass note if only the overtones are there, and correctly deduce which key, so to speak, had been struck. Clever thing, our brains ...


but disagree here. Your ear/brain must really work differently from mine! Are you really saying that if your volume is at a decent level, and you move from about 4 feet to 12 feet away, changing nothing, that the whole perceived experience changes very significantly, or even dramatically?

Frank

Not at all. We're talking about extremely subtle stuff here, but the tiny nuances that are clearly resolved when I put on my headphones and invite Shelby Lynne to whisper into my ear are lost in the ambience of room reflections.

Tim
 
Interesting. That's why I constantly refer to correctly working systems, because when mine is in that shape the sound changes not one iota.

That's why if you have live music in your home and you listen at one end of the house it still has a very dramatic quality to it; moving towards the source the volume the sense is not so much that the sound gets get louder, rather that it gets more intense, more dynamic.

Gotta pick one, Frank. Personally, I'd go with the second, then think hard about all the things that change, not only when you're listening from the other end of the house, but when you move back from the point source, period. Your theories defy the laws of physics; you're either Einstein or you have a very vivid imagination. I'd go with the second on that one, too.

Tim
 

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