Living at the Extreme: I bought a Taiko Extreme and then this happened...

Skanda

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@nenon , appreciate your participation but I found your message a bit misplaced. If you read my prior post, you'll see that I am very open to trying cables, particularly sablon ones. I would like to do a longer run usb (around 6-7ft) because that would save me trouble with repositioning onto a busy rack. The cables I'm using right now are just what I had on hand while I figure out what next and wait for the unit to burn in. With the extreme being a spur of the moment commitment and corona lockdowns, I haven't had the opportunity to prepare everything in advance of it's arrival (something I rarely do anyways as I like to see a piece in person and feeling the weight before determining placement, accessories, etc). I am, however, resistant to trying network tweaks right now. Couple cables is absolutely not an issue especially as I don't plan on spending crazy money on them.

I am not sure what exactly a "bits is bits" person is. I can, as a computer scientist, absolutely confirm that bits are bits. As a HiFi enthusiast, I can absolutely confirm that servers (and dacs) sound different with some clearly being better than others. That's what has my interest piqued and excited to explore further - and take this to it's extreme, pun intended. However, I can see someone who hasnt experienced the difference between servers, reading what I am writing and rolling their eyes - then again, I doubt those people are reading about the extreme :).
 
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nenon

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@nenon , appreciate your participation but I found your message a bit misplaced. If you read my prior post, you'll see that I am very open to trying cables, particularly sablon ones. I would like to do a longer run usb (around 6-7ft) because that would save me trouble with repositioning onto a busy rack. The cables I'm using right now are just what I had on hand while I figure out what next and wait for the unit to burn in. With the extreme being a spur of the moment commitment and corona lockdowns, I haven't had the opportunity to prepare everything in advance of it's arrival (something I rarely do anyways as I like to see a piece in person and feeling the weight before determining placement, accessories, etc). I am, however, resistant to trying network tweaks right now. Couple cables is absolutely not an issue especially as I don't plan on spending crazy money on them.

I am not sure what exactly a "bits is bits" person is. I can, as a computer scientist, absolutely confirm that bits are bits. As a HiFi enthusiast, I can absolutely confirm that servers (and dacs) sound different with some clearly being better than others. That's what has my interest piqued and excited to explore further - and take this to it's extreme, pun intended. However, I can see someone who hasnt experienced the difference between servers, reading what I am writing and rolling their eyes - then again, I doubt those people are reading about the extreme :).

I am sorry if you found my message "a bit misplaced". Feel free to delete. I won't be offended by any means.

The main reason I posted was to reassure you that trying cables of a higher class is a must do in your case and to explore the full potential of the Extreme. IIRC you started with a $5 basic Amazon USB cable and stock power cord. I don't like to make stupid analogies, but that sounded to me like you bought a Lamborghini without tires and put tractor tires on it as that's what you had available. You also said this:
$ for $ cables have had the least (i won't say no) impact in my system so i usually let it fall to the side.
I actually misread the above somehow, and read "(i would say no) impact" somehow, so that must be the part that made my message look a bit misplaced.

I just thought that another member posting would add some reassurance. @romaz was spot on with his earlier comment.

The second reason I posted was to try telling you that a 15 ft USB cable is not a good idea. IMO, even 6-7 ft is too long. I think 3-4 ft is the sweet spot. 5' max.

The third thing I tried to hint was related to your earlier comments about the Wireworld cables.
Tom usually hooks me up on wireworld which has good price points for me, he has other brands but they tend to be more expensive and i'm not sure that's something I want to spend money on until I have a fully dedicated and acoustically treated room.
I would advise you to try something else. But cables are system specific. Wireworld did not work well in my system but may work much better in yours. But as I suggested, if I was you, I would go with Sablon USB and power cord, just because they are widely accepted in the Extreme owner's circle.

I see that you became more open to the idea of trying some Sablon cables in some of your later posts, and while I was trying to reassure you that it was a good idea, I thought I might bring these posts Mark's attention (Sablon) and promote the idea of him sending you some of his cables to try and comment on. I as well as many other readers enjoy reading your posts, and I had really good intentions with my post.

That's all.

BTW, I am also a computer scientist and a HiFi enthusiast, so we can skip the 'bits are bits' part :).

Cheers,
Nenon
 
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Skanda

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I am sorry if you found my message "a bit misplaced". Feel free to delete. I won't be offended by any means.

The main reason I posted was to reassure you that trying cables of a higher class is a must do in your case and to explore the full potential of the Extreme. IIRC you started with a $5 basic Amazon USB cable and stock power cord. I don't like to make stupid analogies, but that sounded to me like you bought a Lamborghini without tires and put tractor tires on it as that's what you had available.

@nenon, i'm not one to delete posts. your opinion is your own and it's fine by me that it's here. your analogy, however, is condescending, inaccurate, and unnecessary.

firstly, we are all here because of a passion for and knowledge of hifi audio, we don't need analogies to cars or other luxury items - when you buy a high end amp, speakers, dac, whatever, you know what you're getting into and you don't need someone waxing poetic about the nature of audio in the context of high end cars to tell you what you're hearing.

secondly, take a look at my current gear. i clearly have no issue spending money on this hobby. the extreme is by no means my first truly high end peice. hell my preamp is about expensive as the extreme and has been one of my favorite pieces.

sorry, but if a server is supposed to whip the pants off everything and be system transforming then it should be so without dual m12 switches, a $10kusd usb cable, a $10kusd power cable. this is my personal line - the way i see it, i could just spend that money on a new pair of speakers. as much as i love my speakers i'd love to own an mbl 101 or alsyvox and this is very real $ that could pay for those - nobody would argue with me that new speakers would be quite transformational in a system regardless of how much i like my current ones. now, before everything gets taken out of context, read what i actually wrote and you'll see that i am happy with my extreme so far. it's been eye opening and educational and i have been complimentary about the sound it is creating. i am also very thankful to the taiko team for being available to answer questions and am looking foward to the tas software. so i don't really know what it is you're coming at me about. maybe i've misjudged your tone.

the only resistance i have to some rec's is that it adds more variables. if i made all the suggested changes to the extreme then, i would argue, i should be making all the changes to my rockna net as well. however, stock offers a better baseline. if the extreme out of the box is "2x better" (whatever that means), than the rockna then we now have a baseline. we can improve upon it. if the extreme is "10% better" (again, whatever that means) then it becomes a very personal call about how much time, money, and interest one has in exploring digital audio and improving their source. currently, i think the extreme is better enough for me that i am very interested in trying more - and a big part of "more" is the simple act of waiting for it to hit it's burn in hours.

on sablon vs. wireworld, you're entitled to your views on wireworld but it suits my preferences. in my first post, i made it clear i opt for detail and speed because to me that is musical. one man's "lean" is another man's "precise". one man's "musical" is another man's "sleepy".

thank you for the comment about usb length. i'll take it into consideration.
 

spiritofmusic

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Skanda, you raise a really interesting point, worthy of it's own thread.
How good should we expect top top gear to sound with the most basic of ancilliaries?
I saw a R2R demo report where the dealer insisted on putting the tape deck on a whicker basket to show how great it was.
How good is Extreme, or indeed MSB/Lampi/DCS on it with power cords and USB from Radio Shack?
 
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Legolas

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What does the world's most Extreme music server do in a sound system?

I wanted to start this with a big shout out to Tom @ Thx Stereo for making this possible. Tom is the dealer who sold me my first pair of hifi speakers (some dynaudios) and we quickly became friends. Sounds cliche, but we regularly discuss audio and non audio stuff and I probably text with him more than I do with my gf lol. He asked me if I knew anything about Taiko Extreme. I told him I had heard about it on whatsbest and read a good portion of the thread. It seemed like an amazingly engineered product but $25k-$30k usd for a server is too much for my blood. I bought my rockna wavedream NET from him back in November and my rockna wavedream sig se from him a year before that. I am very happy with this digital front end (all my listening is digital - I'm on the younger side for this hobby: 29. I have been ripping mp3's since I was 7 years old. Vinyl is confusing, digital is simple :)). On the server side, I had been doing macbook/computer to dac via usb for years. Then I got roon and a metrum ambre to go with it. Woah. Not only super convenient but it sounded better. Then I got the wavedream NET and it was one of my few "night and day" audio experiences. Tom was urging me to give the extreme a try: "why not bro, life is short". Tom was eager to try an extreme himself so in the process of ordering one, he ordered one for me as well. I told him I didn't want to spend this kind of money on my rig at the moment and he said "don't worry about it - pay me later". Damn, not only is that generous but how could I refuse.

I paid him for it but he also mentioned that he's willing to take it back if I don't like it or feel that the system changes were not up to the $ spent. That's a very personal note so regardless of what I do at the end of all this, I acknowledge that others may find the system changes to be worth 2x, 3x, 100x more than the price of the Taiko. Different strokes for different folks. Different techniques for different freaks. In the spirit of honesty and transparency, I received an offer on my rockna over a dm. I have a hand shake agreement with the buyer for a sale in late september if I decide to keep the Taiko. The buyer is gracious in his understanding that this is an opportunity for a great audio experiment and, ideally, a type of review/experience report that the audio community does not get too often. I am not taking shots at dealers or reviewers but a true owner's experience has always served me well and hopefully I can give back to the community this way. I also wanted to do this differently than the standard review. I plan on giving regular updates of the good, bad, and ugly. We are used to reading reviews after a few months or a year of ownership so this is hopefully this method is an interesting, new perspective. Also, for many of us, buying an expensive piece often leads to a barbell system where not everything else is up to spec but the plan is to fix that down the line. On my end, I think my gear is up to snuff but not so much the cables and network optimization. Will the taiko clearly best the rockna with no optimization? What optimization is working well? How does the sound change over the first few weeks and months? Am I just experiencing something different or is this truly better? These are all questions I have and hope to answer. This is a bit like a journal but feel free to ask questions and please excuse any half formed thoughts or typos.

My system:

Torus AVR the second largest one before the wall unit -> rockna wavedream NET -> rockna wavedream sig se -> soulution 721 -> symphonic line kraft 300 (mk3 model - most recent) -> magico s5mk2.

I was running a wireworld loom until I got some new components which are on stock power cables. Why? Well, I wanted to get them set up and burned in and then continue with my loom but instead of buying cables and a rack I ended up with a Taiko instead lol. I know I outlined my situation above but mentally I've parceled away the money so I'm going to stop buying audio stuff for a little bit and then recable.

I have done no network optimization due to a mix of lack of time, lack of interest currently, and a desire to let others figure out what works first. I have a verizon fios 1gb line but otherwise stock parts from them. I was going to buy a new ethernet cable, but same issue as outlined above.

The taiko is sitting on the floor, plugged directly into a separate outlet and not the torus. I'm using a $5 amazon basics usb cable, a stock power cable, and a stock cat6 that came with an xbox. This is not optimized at all but I just wanted to get this running. Also because of the price delta between the Rockna Wavedream NET, which I adore and has synergies (such as a specialized clock) with the dac, I basically want to make sure the delta in performance is high enough that it makes sense for me to start optimizing around the Taiko. I know some readers may dismiss my take aways because of this, but ultimately, this is what I need from the Taiko to justify the cost. The fit and finish is gorgeous, it's incredibly heavy, and we all know how well engineered it is. For some, that is enough to buy it - for me, I need need need to make sure the delta in price makes sense as I would take a minimal degradation in performance in order to redeploy the capital into something more responsible.

My musical preferences:

I tend to listen to rap, hip hop, electronic, and a bit of pop. I'm always open to new music in different genres and dabble in some classical and jazz when the mood hits as well as music from India (particularly ghazals as I grew up listening to them). Within hip hop and rap, I vary from modern trap to more rhyming/"bars" focused artists such as Kendrick or J. Cole. I definitely value a great beat over great lyrics but when a master wordsmith absolutely "bodies" a beat, it doesn't matter what the beat is because the timing, pace, intonation, and tempo shifts all showcase the genius of the artist. I love listening for samples from other works and references to other artists/older works - these are often described as "interpolations"

Within electronic, I was a big trance head for years. I listen to trance less so now and when I do it's usually psytrance (artists such as simon patterson). But I love me some good techno (boris brejcha and aes dana come to mind) - I wasn't a huge fan until I went to Awakenings festival in the netherlands in 2018. I love future garage and wavepool as well because of the ebbing and flowing deep bass and vast soundscapes with ghostly samples. I'll listen to a little house or older dubstep here and there but it's not really my speed

My listening biases:

Resolution, space, speed take first preference. Tonal density matters more to me now that it did before because I am at the point in my audio journey where I have realized that the upper echelons of gear don't require one to sacrifice body for detail and air. I do like a bit of richness in vocals but my ears are particularly sensitive to speed and most gear described as "rich" is often slow to my ears. Dynamics are extremely important as I like a first row presentation that pops out at me but I also realize that modern music can be dynamically limited so often it's not a fault of my system but a fault of the recording.

Day 1: Out of the box, goddamn is this thing heavy...but also very pretty. After hunting down spare cables in my closet I got it plugged in and running. Set up was easy enough, but I'm not sure if I need to mess around with the software at all. Emile kindly messaged me on whatsapp (honestly, this kind of service makes the price palatable) and told me play around with Asio vs. Jplay. I started with Jplay then switched to Asio where it stayed most of the day. I'm not sure I hear much of a difference between the two but I need to sit down and listen more closely after everything opens up a bit. There is certainly something interesting going on, the sound seems bigger and clearer but I'm still a bit apprehensive and nervous about the expenditure. Let's see where this goes. My plan is to listen to this for a week or more as I get accustomed to the sound and as, in my experience, most ss devices sound better when left on for days.

Pics please....
 
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Rhapsody

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Skanda, you raise a really interesting point, worthy of it's own thread.
How good should we expect top top gear to sound with the most basic of ancilliaries?
I saw a R2R demo report where the dealer insisted on putting the tape deck on a whicker basket to show how great it was.
How good is Extreme, or indeed MSB/Lampi/DCS on it with power cords and USB from Radio Shack?

Marc, that's totally fine for those that want to buy a top rated, VERY expensive server/dac and then use the least expensive ancillaries. They will then have that level of sonics which probably will be pretty good and if they can enjoy music and have no interest in enhancing their sound, they are all set.

My experience is that most people that are going to spend $25K- $50K on their digital front ends are astute enough to realize that if they make sure that they have a solid network and good (not necessarily expensive) cables and vibration control, that they will then realize the potential of their $50K investment.

Each person should follow the path that works for them.
 

Skanda

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Marc, that's totally fine for those that want to buy a top rated, VERY expensive server/dac and then use the least expensive ancillaries. They will then have that level of sonics which probably will be pretty good and if they can enjoy music and have no interest in enhancing their sound, they are all set.

My experience is that most people that are going to spend $25K- $50K on their digital front ends are astute enough to realize that if they make sure that they have a solid network and good (not necessarily expensive) cables and vibration control, that they will then realize the potential of their $50K investment.

Each person should follow the path that works for them.

for sure, thats why i made the analogy of integrateds to separates. there is a path for improvement with separates that isn't really there with an integrated. that path becomes personal because while everything matters some things matter more. to me spending $$$ on a speaker is fine, but less so on ancillaries (for now).

again, nothing to take away from the extreme, it's playing at a high level and i'm just at the beginning of the 1200 hours burn in period anyways. i'm hearing really deeply into the music and for someone who likes detailed gear hearing new things in my favorite songs was something i thought i left behind. the extreme is allowing my speakers to out do ciems which from a detail and resolution perspective is wild.

i think you're right about the people that spend this kind of money on a single piece are probably fine spending more on making everything else line up. however thats not an immediate option for everyone so it's good to know about gear you can grow with so long as that portion of your system is something you want to keep working on. in my experience, i had a modest but nice turntable. i enjoyed listening to it but ultimately realized that improving vinyl isnt interesting to me so i got rid of it. of course some would argue i never truly experienced vinyl because i didn't do x,y,z and that's fine (for what it's worth eschewing vinyl had less to do with sound and more to do with availability of music). so, likewise, there are probably readers out there who really want an extreme esp with most posts saying it is completely transformative to a system. i'm sure many of these readers feel like they are missing out on something in their digital audio experience - i certainly felt this way. for the most part, the extreme is living up to that. i'm hearing deeper into the mix and only i can determine if that is something i want to pay for and keep working on. for now, i certainly am intrigued and eager to listen to more. however, i would be lying if i said this is slapping the rockna around and that says more about the rockna than it does about the extreme. i think the extreme is better and how much better is still being discovered.
 
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ricjor1

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Skanda,
I want to applaud you for simply calling as you hear it. Not all, but many people in this "hobby/obsession" tend to exaggerate differences between components. To take part of your comments, '"supposed to whip the pants off everything", in my experience once you get to a certain level it's very rare that one component totally destroys another. Yes, there are easily discernable differences between components, but rarely night and day differences. In my opinion it's the easily discernable differences, no matter how minute, once heard makes it almost impossible for many in this hobby to ignore. Good luck as you move forward with your evaluation of the Extreme.
On a side note: I use WW Platinum Series 8 XLR and USB cables. I didn't end-up with WW without comparing them to several cables to include: Audioquest, Cardas, Tellurium Q Statements, Tara Labs, Shunyata, and a couple more. I prefer the WW in my system.
 

spiritofmusic

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Skanda

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Skanda,
I want to applaud you for simply calling as you hear it. Not all, but many people in this "hobby/obsession" tend to exaggerate differences between components. To take part of your comments, '"supposed to whip the pants off everything", in my experience once you get to a certain level it's very rare that one component totally destroys another. Yes, there are easily discernable differences between components, but rarely night and day differences. In my opinion it's the easily discernable differences, no matter how minute, once heard makes it almost impossible for many in this hobby to ignore. Good luck as you move forward with your evaluation of the Extreme.
On a side note: I use WW Platinum Series 8 XLR and USB cables. I didn't end-up with WW without comparing them to several cables to include: Audioquest, Cardas, Tellurium Q Statements, Tara Labs, Shunyata, and a couple more. I prefer the WW in my system.

thanks! i had a night and day experience when i first put the rockna server in so i'm certainly spoiled. the extreme is not giving me night and day yet but so far i am liking the improvements.

i mentioned my preamp in an earlier post. the soulution 721 replaced an arc ls17se - quite a jump in many ways: price, fit and finish, topology, etc. but on the same cables that were previously running the arc the change in sound was show stopping to my ears. can easily say its the best pre i've heard (with the ch precision l1+x1 being a close second). when i threw my kraft into my system, it was a noticeable improvement but not to the same extent that the soulution had. there are any number of reasons for this. the kraft is an excellent amp and i rec it readily but my experience makes me want to prioritize the preamp over the amp in terms of where i apply tweaks and upgrades - if i wanted to really change the tone of my system, maybe a dart pre or even symphonic line's pre would be a great addition that i would be ready to spend money on even though some say "it's just a volume control".

thank you for the comments on wireworld. did you find that the ic's were making a bigger difference in the total sound of your system vs. the usb? prior to the extreme, i had been eyeing some nice electra ac cables and platinum ic's - i'd love to spring for platinum ac as well but i think thats going to be more than i want to spend right now.
 

Skanda

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You sound like your mum has yelled at you Lol.

i know right? it's my own guilty conscience. i've been in the apartment since early march when the office closed down. only left the city for the first time last week. things are crazy out here...not as bad as news reports would have you believe but things are only now returning to normal but during the bulk of it the apartment became living space, listening space, part time gym, part time test kitchen, the whole works. i'll never forget this experience, that's for sure!
 

spiritofmusic

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Anyone who forgets all this has real problems Lol.
 
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nenon

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@Skanda Perhaps you got the tone of my messages wrong. I tried clarifying in my second message, but that did not seem to help either. I post in forums only when I can learn something or I can offer something other people can learn from. And there is of course the occasional humor, expressing gratitude, or the rare one off (typically offtopic) chat messages that make those threads more fun.

take a look at my current gear. i clearly have no issue spending money on this hobby. the extreme is by no means my first truly high end peice. hell my preamp is about expensive as the extreme and has been one of my favorite pieces.
No offense, but throwing tons of money into the gear does not mean anything to me. It's all about how it sounds at the end. Here is a fact: the best systems I have heard were never the most expensive ones. If you are happy with your system, that's all it matters.

sorry, but if a server is supposed to whip the pants off everything and be system transforming then it should be so without dual m12 switches, a $10kusd usb cable, a $10kusd power cable.
I never recommended dual m12 switches, $10K USB cables, or $10K power cords to you. I don't use any of that stuff myself either, because it does not make sense to me.

I am a DIY guy and to be honest don't like paying manufacturers big money (but sometimes I have to). I have given a go at everything in my system. Started with making my own cables, then power conditioners, turntables, phono stages, line stages, amplifiers, speakers, DIY servers, vibration treatment devices, etc. I have built at least 8 pairs of high end speakers, some of which are into the 5-digit price just for the raw materials. But I am just a hobbyist and quickly realised that there are a lot of things I cannot do right - I don't have the knowledge or the experience or the resources some of the best designers have.
Power conditioning is one of these things. There is no way on earth I can accomplish what Jim Weil did with his Sound Applications TT-7 I recently bought. Power cords is another example - even my best cost no object attempts were easily outperformed by commercial solutions. Same thing happened with turntables and vibration treatment. There are some things that turned out really well, and can compete with the best on the market, built for a fraction of the price. And there are others, that I should not even try anymore.

But why am I saying all that? It does not matter what I can build and what not. It's offtopic and I am sure no one cares. So let me get to the point before I bore everyone to death. What matters is the accumulated experience from all these experiments. I know what difference replacing a capacitor makes. Heck, I can even recognise the sound signature of some capacitor brands already. I've learned how different wires change the sound, how different crossover filters sound, etc. etc. Even the solder you use matters. Everything matters!

In the past couple of years, I left everything else behind and focused on a digital source. I am an IT guy by profession, and although I have moved to the business side of IT recently, I am still quite a geek deep inside. My journey with different computers, streamers, hardware, software, operating systems, power supplies, etc. has been running on a quite intensive slope. It's a long journey to describe in a short message, but I went from regular computers/laptops to Raspberry Pi's to low powered computers with good LPS to streamers, to various NUCs to high powered servers with state of the art power supplies and a lot more in between. My most recent server build is a copy of some of the hardware the Taiko Extreme uses - same motherboard, same CPUs, custom order industrial RAM, and similar software configuration. There was a lot of challenges with this build - from the passive cooling that no one offers a solution for to the power supply and everything in between. I have been working for over 6 months with Sean Jacobs on a custom DC4 linear power supply that can deliver the power required by this dual Xeon CPUs server without restricting any dynamics. It took a LPS that can deliver 45A of peak DC power to make this sound right. Just for reference, the power supply on this server is bigger that the power supply of my monoblocks. Surely I have spent more money on these experiments than buying a Rockna streamer and an Extreme, but I am very passionate about this stuff and want to do it myself. It's one of my hobbies.

A quick note about the Rockna. As you probably know pretty well, the Rockna is a FPGA based device. We used to deal with a lot of FPGA development at my company. And I strongly believe that's the future of digital sources. But I also believe that the FPGA development is not at this level yet... it would get there soon. Compared to the dual Xeon server, the Rockna is a low powered device. I am not talking about processing power but actual current draw. I haven't had the Rockna in my system, but a person I build a server for about a year ago gave me some really good feedback about the Rockna. I trust that person and I know it's a really good device. I even considered getting one at some point to listen to it in my system. But I lost interest in that lately.

Leaving everything else aside, this dual Xeon server needs a lot of instantaneous peak power. This is really all I have been trying to tell you.
You said:
if i made all the suggested changes to the extreme then, i would argue, i should be making all the changes to my rockna net as well.
I don't know what stock power cord you are using, but if you are using a power cord with a thin gauge I would completely disagree with your statement. The Rockna would perform much better with a low current power cord. And you would be limiting the Extreme. So that would be a test skewed in favor of the Rockna. The Extreme should be treated as a power amplifier. If you have 10 AWG wires going from your electrical panel all the way to the Extreme, then you can ignore everything I have said. 12 AWG would be at the borderline, and any thinner wire would not be a good idea. Of course it would be nice to use high quality cable and the gauge is not the only thing that matters; but the wire gauge is what would make the test more accurate. If your stock wire has tiny conductors, then my recommendation would be to change it. Okay, that was a long way of saying, make sure you use a power cord with thick conductors. I just wanted to give you some background, hoping that it may help take my recommendation a little more serious. If that did not work, at least I tried.

Now going back to my earlier comment about why I post in forums. I don't feel like I am contributing anything here. I am not learning anything either, so that would be my last post here. Good luck with your adventure. I will check at the end to find out the outcome of all this, although I am pretty sure you will end up keeping the Extreme.
 
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Skanda

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@nenon , no hard feelings and if i had more time i would address your post in more detail. suffice to say that i actually agree with pretty much everything you wrote and have some shared experiences that align with yours. if i came off resistant to trying new things, that was certainly not my intention. the only thing i have been upfront about being resistant to is the network tweaks, for the same reason as you - i don't totally understand why it would matter and it's not something i have time or interest in investigating at the moment. i'd rather spend the money on a new dac or something.

as an aside, fpga's are super interesting esp in the context of high frequency trading and machine learning. my own research was in the use of digital signal processing methods to create intraday/high frequency trading models as all trading data is a time series and shifting to the frequency domain makes things much less noisy. that's one of the "emotional" reasons i wanted a dac with fpga - i appreciate the technology and it has some sentimental value for me. as i get older, this matters less but at the time it brought a smile to my face.

there are alot of variables in play including things like powercord gauge. Emile suggested I look for the lowest gauge cords I could get and that's what I'm hunting for. i'm taking this one step at a time and while i could have waited 6 - 12 months waiting for burn in and trying different cords and usbs etc, I think i'm adding something interesting to the community by giving a more day-by-day report and ones that focus on some music which isn't regularly covered by review mags but is music i know well and if a system can't play it in an enjoyable way then that system is not for me.

if you don't find this interesting, then that's that but I welcome your most recent post as the kind of in depth story telling that we forum guys appreciate and love to read.
 

justubes

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2015
211
102
273
Back in the city and got the system running. It's been one day since the boxes were all turned on so everything is getting back up to speed. Played alot of music yesterday and the dynamics and details are still standing out to me in a positive way. I still have to vnc into the taiko to transfer some of my music library over from the rockna to see how it does with local files.

However, before I dig into all that, I have a question for those with more experience than me. As I look at USB cables and AC cables, does anyone have reccomendations of max length to use? I'm tempted to avoid moving around boxes and just pay a little extra for a 2-3m USB cable and a 2-3m AC cables. Is this going to be an issue with USB. There is a long backstory that I'm going to avoid but my current wireworld starlight usb cable is about 15ft long and I've never had issues with it. I think it's a solid 2-3ft longer than I need. I've read that 6m is max for usb without degredation.

Generally, a usb cable of that length would be expensive but it's the odd lengths that sell at huge discounts online so it's easy enough to try one. However, if the rec is shorter is better then I'll be looking to move some boxes around. Sablon is certainly top of mind as it has been rec'd repeatedly and the prices are reasonable.

Hi Skanda,

Just as well if a longest usb cable causes no drop outs or communication issue, i say go for it.

Generally, i find the longer the cable gives a better flow and musicality sound especially where silver is used, not that i am stating all silver based cables sound brighter generally.

I just picked up the older Wireworld silver 5 hdmi for connecting/communication line between my mono dacs based on another forumer recommendation even over the later models or full silver platinum versions, as it is their only version that uses a single 23awg for both usb and hdmi cable and at very reasonable prices and apparently beats out many higher priced brands.

All their other offerings uses thinner twin conductors to achieve the similar gauge.

I have found the wireworlds to excel in a direct, fast, detailed and tight sound over sweetness and warmth.

On a side note, i have almost alway found a short cable more edgy and harder sounding compared to the same longer length offering, which also add to a fuller and more bass.
 
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Skanda

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2020
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Hi Skanda,

Just as well if a longest usb cable causes no drop outs or communication issue, i say go for it.

Generally, i find the longer the cable gives a better flow and musicality sound especially where silver is used, not that i am stating all silver based cables sound brighter generally.

I just picked up the older Wireworld silver 5 hdmi for connecting/communication line between my mono dacs based on another forumer recommendation even over the later models or full silver platinum versions, as it is their only version that uses a single 23awg for both usb and hdmi cable and at very reasonable prices and apparently beats out many higher priced brands.

All their other offerings uses thinner twin conductors to achieve the similar gauge.

I have found the wireworlds to excel in a direct, fast, detailed and tight sound over sweetness and warmth.

On a side note, i have almost alway found a short cable more edgy and harder sounding compared to the same longer length offering, which also add to a fuller and more bass.

super helpful, i'm going to use this as the encouragement i needed to let my pieces sit where they are and get a slightly longer run of cable. i'll see if i can hunt down a gen 5 of the wireworld, i'm sure it will be well priced if i do. otherwise there is a nice plat 7 available at the moment that might fit the bill. direct, fast, detailed vs. sweet/warm is exactly what i'm after. not that extreme needs it, just that its my sound preference :)
 

justubes

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2015
211
102
273
I guess the Wireworlds character may be more so suited to pop, hip hop, house, electronica, techno and gangster funk which i also listen most to, especially just playing the new and recommended hot tracks and artist from Tidal.

This is most interesting and may cause differences in view of disagreements as to recommendations.

I am most curious as to the musical profiles and preferences of our fellow forumers.

But i find that i hear so many layers into this king for music that it is extremely challenging for a system to sort out what many may consider noise but in reality has artistic expressions the different sounds and tones that i enjoy not knowing or even heard of obscure artist than any audiophile recording which almost always sound great and most excellent on most high end system.
 

EuroDriver

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2015
926
2,479
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Monaco
I am sorry if you found my message "a bit misplaced". Feel free to delete. I won't be offended by any means.

The main reason I posted was to reassure you that trying cables of a higher class is a must do in your case and to explore the full potential of the Extreme. IIRC you started with a $5 basic Amazon USB cable and stock power cord. I don't like to make stupid analogies, but that sounded to me like you bought a Lamborghini without tires and put tractor tires on it as that's what you had available. You also said this:

I actually misread the above somehow, and read "(i would say no) impact" somehow, so that must be the part that made my message look a bit misplaced.

I just thought that another member posting would add some reassurance. @romaz was spot on with his earlier comment.

The second reason I posted was to try telling you that a 15 ft USB cable is not a good idea. IMO, even 6-7 ft is too long. I think 3-4 ft is the sweet spot. 5' max.

The third thing I tried to hint was related to your earlier comments about the Wireworld cables.

I would advise you to try something else. But cables are system specific. Wireworld did not work well in my system but may work much better in yours. But as I suggested, if I was you, I would go with Sablon USB and power cord, just because they are widely accepted in the Extreme owner's circle.

I see that you became more open to the idea of trying some Sablon cables in some of your later posts, and while I was trying to reassure you that it was a good idea, I thought I might bring these posts Mark's attention (Sablon) and promote the idea of him sending you some of his cables to try and comment on. I as well as many other readers enjoy reading your posts, and I had really good intentions with my post.

That's all.

BTW, I am also a computer scientist and a HiFi enthusiast, so we can skip the 'bits are bits' part :).

Cheers,
Nenon

Hi Nenon,

Your posts and observations are valuable data points for us. The past 2 weeks we have had Ah Ha, the penny has dropped moments from your observations and those of others.

Large cross section wire gauge of good quality is observed to be beneficial and it all makes sense with the technical and engineering insights we have gained over the past two years
 

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