Perhaps, but I cut several hundred radio spots in the 80s, and we compressed them so they would play as loud as the pop recordings we compared them to. And the 80s wasn't a "loudness wars" decade. This is nothing new. It's just a new extreme.
Tim
Loudness Wars
- Thread starter MylesBAstor
- Start date
Perhaps, but I cut several hundred radio spots in the 80s, and we compressed them so they would play as loud as the pop recordings we compared them to. And the 80s wasn't a "loudness wars" decade. This is nothing new. It's just a new extreme.
Tim
True. Having constant levels on the broadcast side remains a challenge. It is one that continues to this day. The EBU is proposing new sets of metering standards to address this old but persistent problem. The easy way out is for the broadcaster to apply heavy limiting (which is really just compression with higher ratios and faster attack times IIRC). In other words, just blast everything and let the compressor/limiters take care of not going past the prescribed limits set by whatever broadcaster's regulatory body. So there's that aspect as well. Since a broadcaster doesn't want to be softer than the stations next to him, everybody and his uncle are pushing the boundaries. It reminds me of looking at the retina burning settings of displays at big box stores where every single TV is way outside NTSC standards. It can be said that the loudness wars started on the radio battlefield. It just changed venue when personal music surpassed canned programming.
We have to make a distinction between the recording itself and the delivery IMO. Back then you got it compressed in your car (radio) but not as badly at home. Anybody remember getting their hands on LPs pressed specifically as "Promo Copy Only"? Many of these were much more compressed than the domestic releases. I wish I had kept these for posterity. I think this was the turning point. Now you get it compressed either way. So yes, it is "a new extreme" in more ways than one.
We have to make a distinction between the recording itself and the delivery IMO. Back then you got it compressed in your car (radio) but not as badly at home. Anybody remember getting their hands on LPs pressed specifically as "Promo Copy Only"? Many of these were much more compressed than the domestic releases. I wish I had kept these for posterity. I think this was the turning point. Now you get it compressed either way. So yes, it is "a new extreme" in more ways than one.
I don't hink it was as bad as it is today... One didn't have to look for really special pressing to have a modicum of music breathing... Today anything Pop and//or rock is compressed as to be only loud .. I also think that the level of bass allowed by digital is superior to what one could get in an LP so now you have everything loud and squeezed together ... The problem is that once you notice it it no longer goes away .. Yes one can train oneself to cast it away but ... Man!
No, I don't think it was either. As I recall, it was mostly the singles that were severely compressed. But maybe I'm having a bit of photogenic memory of my own. It's not always bad. If what you're going for is a "wall of sound," and you don't push it into clipping, it's just another effect. But now, it's totally out of control.
Tim
A very informative database website concerning dynamic range of now over 10,000 titles:
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/
http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/
Ron:
I'm confused since it has lossless and lossy listed. Is that list for CD or MP3?
Hi
On a job site but hey , gotta have my daily fix... I have been wondering about the whole issue of Dynamic Range measurement. There is plug-in/component for foofbar which allow one to measure the Dynamic range of track, group of tracks or an album. I have not been able to peg much over 20 in any of the albums or cuts that I have tested (I haven't tested all the albums in my collection nor have I listened to all the albums in my collection but that's the subject of another thread
).
It seems that the software used to measure the DR, is THIS foobar component. A cursory glance at Ron's link did show at least on the few pages a DR greater than 20.
Now my question. Does that mean that most of the albums out there have a DR less than 20 dB? I tried some albums that I htought were extremely dynamic, none registered above 20 on this particular DR meter.. Album like Tutti from Reference Recordings or the Ravel Bolero from Telarc or the Hovhaness Mount Helen Symphony from Telarc registered not much over 20 dB as much as I can recall ...
Calling Bruce, Mark Basspig Weiss or anyone with recording and mastering experience here... What kind of DR have you seen in recordings based on your own measurements... And is this upper limit of 20 dB what you have experienced?
P.S. For the record anything that measures less than 10 on the same Dr meter for foobar sound severely compressed over 10 you have (subjective) decent dynamic.. 20 is the maximum I have seen ...
On a job site but hey , gotta have my daily fix... I have been wondering about the whole issue of Dynamic Range measurement. There is plug-in/component for foofbar which allow one to measure the Dynamic range of track, group of tracks or an album. I have not been able to peg much over 20 in any of the albums or cuts that I have tested (I haven't tested all the albums in my collection nor have I listened to all the albums in my collection but that's the subject of another thread
).It seems that the software used to measure the DR, is THIS foobar component. A cursory glance at Ron's link did show at least on the few pages a DR greater than 20.
Now my question. Does that mean that most of the albums out there have a DR less than 20 dB? I tried some albums that I htought were extremely dynamic, none registered above 20 on this particular DR meter.. Album like Tutti from Reference Recordings or the Ravel Bolero from Telarc or the Hovhaness Mount Helen Symphony from Telarc registered not much over 20 dB as much as I can recall ...
Calling Bruce, Mark Basspig Weiss or anyone with recording and mastering experience here... What kind of DR have you seen in recordings based on your own measurements... And is this upper limit of 20 dB what you have experienced?
P.S. For the record anything that measures less than 10 on the same Dr meter for foobar sound severely compressed over 10 you have (subjective) decent dynamic.. 20 is the maximum I have seen ...
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
A good reference point to shoot for is between -16 and -20dB RMS. These are average we're talking about. I've done as little as -10dB RMS on a metal album, but in their words: "I don't care what it sounds like, just make it loud"! The sweet spot nowadays for pop/rock I like to do is -16 to -14dB RMS.
I'm totally bewildered by the many different kinds of dB. I hope one of our experts can write an article explaining each and their applications in plain english. Consider this a humble and formal request from a math challenged member
