Lyngdorf TDAI 3400

[tmallin]

I already posted some preliminary thoughts about this unit in two other threads, one dealing with my Watkins Generation 4 speakers and the other discussing my "Graham Audio LS8/1 Signature Edition & a New System". Now that the Lyndorf is, I believe, fully broken in/settled in, I thought I would create a new home for any further discussion of this unit here. I did not want discussion of this item to get "buried" in other threads since I think the Lyngdorf is quite a significant change/addition to my system. I have not changed my mind about anything I said in those preliminary thoughts posts. I will cross post those preliminary thoughts below and then carry on the discussion from there.

 

[tmallin]

A Further Simplified System: Lyngdorf TDAI 3400

Consider this a preliminary report. I have further simplified my main audio system by replacing the Lumin X1 streamer/DAC, Lumin L2 Music Library & Network Switch, and bridged pair of Benchmark AHB2 amplifiers with a Lyngdorf TDAI 3400. This reconfiguration allows me to keep all the electronics on my small rack and eliminate the amps sitting on the floor in front of the rack. It also eliminates four power cords, cleaning up the nest of cables behind the rack. Each of my PI Audio UberBusses now drives only a single component and each of these are driven by a separate dedicated circuit on the same phase of my electrical service. The TDAI 3400 is driven by one dedicated circuit/UberBuss and the GigaFOILv4 Inline ethernet filter, powered by 5V output of Farad Super3 linear power supply is driven by the other dedicated circuit/UberBuss.

The complete new current system configuration is linked to from my signature on this post.

This is the third time I've used Lyngdorf equipment. I used a TDAI 2170 to power my Stirling Broadcast LS3/6 speakers and feed my Audio Kinesis Swarm subwoofer arrays. I also at one point used a Lyngdorf SDA 2400 amp to power my Harbeth M40.1 speakers in another room. Both of those experiences were highly positive with the exception of Room Perfect in the TDAI 2170. I always found Room Perfect to create an unneeded and sonically objectionable peak in the response in the 4 kHz range.

At this point I am exceptionally pleased with my purchase of the Lyngdorf TDAI 3400. It sounds fabulous and all the functions I need seem to work in a glitch-free manner. Since it retails for $7,500, replaces Lumin and Benchmark equipment retailing for about $26,000, and sounds even better than that equipment, I'd say it is a bargain for me.

I will need to wait another week or so for my UberBuss power treatment units to warm up/settle in after being disconnected from power for an extended period as I did when I dissembled things and inserted the Lyngdorf. It also takes about that long or longer for the Deoxit Gold-treated connections to fully "cure," so I'm not yet getting the "full effect." But even at this point, I'm very pleased indeed.

Some details and observations:

I received my TDAI 3400 early last Friday. I spent the day dismantling my system, photographing and packing up the Lumin and Benchmark items, and moving them to our basement. I did manage to get the 3400 mostly set up late Friday evening and finished the job early Saturday morning. I did not employ Room Perfect until Sunday.

A comment on the packaging of the Lyngdorf: Not since some PS Audio equipment I once owed have I seen packaging this simple yet bombproof. The double-boxed container primarily uses cardboard and thick clear plastic membranes above and below the chassis to form a springy, air-surrounded environment for the electronics inside the box. Very safe and very easy to unbox.

Before I implemented Room Perfect I didn't really expect the bass to be both stronger and yet better defined. But that is what I heard right from the first few notes. There was more meat on the bone. And there was yet more dynamic contrast. Roon programming sounded yet better this way. High frequencies seemed about the same--very nice indeed with no increase in nasties or other artifacts. I had the sense of great reserve power, at least as much of the "Hoover Dam" sensation as before.

Another great way to play Qobuz streaming, through the Lyngdorf, besides using Roon, is via the Mconnect app. That way sounds at least as excellent as via Roon. You can play Qobuz and Tidal sources via Mconnect using the UPnP input function of the TDAI 3400. Tidal Connect is also a great alternative to Roon when streaming from that service with sonics at least as good as Roon. The Lyngdorf allows Tidal Connect.

[Continued in next post]

 

[tmallin]

Then I implemented Room Perfect. Whoa! Full stop.

The sonic changes from implementing Room Perfect in Focus mode were all to the good. VERY GOOD! This is a VERY significant improvement to what was already truly excellent sound except for what Room Perfect found to correct and corrected.

There is now much more meat on the bone. It apparently at least partially filled in a dip I had in the upper bass/lower midrange so that the sound is more fulsome, making the frequency balance of the Watkins Generation 4 speakers I'm currently using much more like the balance of the Graham Audio LS8/1s without Room Perfect but positioned at the same distances from the walls. Lower voices, cellos, piano left hand and most any music with significant low end benefits from presenting the "power range" (say 100 to 300 Hz) and lower midrange at proper relative levels. All music sounds fuller, more powerful, more weighty and larger. Bass definition is also further improved with the tune of note-to-note walking bass becoming yet easier to follow. All this correction was made without adding any undue midbass bloat or thump. Low bass is not much affected--the Watkins speakers still roll off below 40 Hz, in other words, but the overall impression of bass weight is greatly enhanced.

Unlike my experience with the TDAI 2170 years ago, I hear no excess high frequencies injected by Room Perfect. Besides the magic in the lower frequencies, imaging is firmed and staging is considerably more 3-D. That's going some since the Watkins presentation was already by far the most 3-D Ive heard from any speakers in this room.There's also a general sense that the sound is more "present" without any audible peaks in the mids. Altogether using Room Perfect in the TDAI 3400 is a great success for my system!

I use a Cardas-style set up and have for years because this maximizes realism of imaging and staging from most speakers in my room. Those sonic aspects are the most important to me. I'm not so sensitive to bass balance as long as there is no midbass boom, which there wasn't. The Watkins speakers are on 30-inch stands. In my room that puts the woofer about the same distance above the floor as it is from the side wall. Perhaps that causes a null or dip in the upper bass/lower midrange, but that's just speculation. I know putting the Graham speakers on the 20 inch Skylan stands I first used and the same distance from the walls caused a bit of the same kind of dip/null, but not to the same extent. Moving the Grahams to the shorter Graham stands made the Grahams nice and full sounding.

If you have used Room Perfect in the past and have not achieved altogether positive Room Perfect results, check your software version. The current one, and the one I'm using in the TDAI 3400, is version 3.3.0. I also strongly suggest that you try the following "trick" set up for Room Perfect if in the past Room Perfect was emphasizing the highs or in some other way producing less than totally satisfying results.

Lyngdorf's instructions for setting up Room Perfect, which I have followed in the past call for placing the microphone at "random" room positions and orientations with respect to the speakers after the initial measurement at the listening position. That is NOT the way I set it up this time. I should note that Lyngdorf admits these days that if you have an acoustically treated room (as I do), you can avoid having the Room Perfect correction end up with excess highs by always aiming the microphone between the speakers regardless of the "random" positions of the microphone within the room.

For my current Room Perfect set up, I put the front tip of the microphone where the center of my head is between my ears when I'm in the listening chair. I pointed the mic level and straight forward to the point on the wall behind the speakers, midway between the two speakers. I did not move the microphone for any of the measurements. I started out with the volume set at minus 30, but Room Perfect said that was too low and to set the volume at minus 12 dB. That was quite loud, but seemingly safe for the speakers. I was running the measurement from my computer desk outside the listening room, so the room was empty of people and with the door to the listening room shut (my usual way to listen when I'm in that room) it was not loud at all outside the room. Room Perfect told me it had 100% room knowledge after the Focus measurement and one room measurement, but I ran two more room measurements anyway, again not moving the mike. After the third room measurement (a total of four measurements including Focus), Room Perfect said I was done and should exit. The entire Room Perfect measurement process, including setting up the mike, which is the most time and detail intensive part, only took about half an hour.

In walking around the room, I hear not much variation in bass level with Room Perfect set on Focus. I worried that it might sound too bassy outside the listening postion, but that is not the case.

So I guess my effort to "fool" Room Perfect about how to adjust the response worked. I love it when a plan comes together! I will not be going back to the Lumin/Benchmark equipment!

Let me add that before purchase I was aware of the less-than-stellar measurements of the TDAI 3400 reported by Audio Science Review (ASR) and some others. I was also aware of the stellar subjective reviews from other sources. I also note that ASR at least partially recanted once the author heard the results of Room Perfect on his own home system, then giving the 3400 his recommendation.

Before purchasing my Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 I also heard a friend's TDAI 3400 set up with the Graham Audio LS8/1 speakers and was quite impressed. Now, having heard the 3400 in my own room, all I can say is that whatever objective flaws the electronics may reveal on the test bench, the Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 yields subjectively amazing results in my listening room.

A picture of my newly further simplified system is attached. Note that this system is much closer in configuration and price to the type of system Bill Watkins uses to demonstrate the Watkins speakers at his retail store. I estimate the total cost of this newly simplified system at about $15,000, including all the acoustical treatment and electrical tweaks.

 

[tmallin]

My original goal in simplifying my system--which began with my abandonment of my Sanders 10e speakers for the Graham LS8/1 speakers--was to explore whether components which were much more manageable in size, weight, and bulk, and thus more manageable for me to handle as I age could perform in my small room on par with the best larger speakers.

That goal was, as it turned out, quite easy to reach with the Graham LS8/1 speakers. The Grahams, driven by less expensive, much lighter/smaller amps than the Sanders Magtechs, proved capable of surpassing the sound quality I had from the Sanders speakers. First the Audio by Van Alstine DVA M225 monoblocks, and then a pair of bridged Benchmark AHB2 amps used as monoblocks filled this role.

Then I discovered that, except for the bottom octave, the 1/3 the cost, 1/3 the size, 1/2 the weight Watkins Generation 4 speakers were at least the overall sonic equal of the Graham LS8/1s in my room.

Now the Lyngdorf TDAI 3400, at all of 18 pounds, has proved to be at least the sonic equal driving the Watkins of a combination of the Lumin X1 streaming DAC, the Lumin L2 Music Library & Network Switch, and the pair of Benchmark AHB2 amps.

My system is a streaming-only system. I don't need or have any external HDMI, digital, or analog components to connect to the Lyngdorf. Thus, I'm not using any of the stock unit's analog or digital inputs or outputs and thus certainly don't need the optional high quality analog board or the HDMI board. The retail price of my "basic" TDAI 3400 is currently $7,500. Not cheap, certainly. But the Lyngdorf replaces streaming and amplification electronics with a current MSRP of almost $26,000 so in my estimation, for my system and needs, it's a bargain.

And the Lyngdorf potentially can do so much more, serving as a full-fledged preamp for both analog (including phono) and digital sources, digital crossover for added stereo subwoofers, as well as quite flexible automatic or manual electronic equalization and "voicing" of the speakers. It is a true Swiss Army Knife of electronic equipment. Not since the TacT RCS 2.2XP have I owned a "preamp" with this kind of flexibility, and the Lyngdorf adds an amazingly capable two channels of powerful amplification to the package.

And then there's Room Perfect. My first experience with Room Perfect, via the Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 I owned a number of years ago, was less than totally satisfactory. At that time I was unable to keep Room Perfect from adding unwanted extra emphasis to the mid-highs. It always added a measured and subjective increase in response centered around 4 kHz. I had to use other electronic EQ to get rid of this problem, adding to system complexity and reducing system transparency.

But that was then and this is now. In the TDAI 3400, my first attempt to set up Room Perfect took only about half an hour total for microphone set up (by far the most tedious and exacting part) and measurements. And with the set-up trick I described in post #3 above, it produced absolutely STUNNING improvements to the sound of my Watkins Generation 4 speakers in this room, even though I thought the Watkins sounded pretty darn fine before the Lyngdorf and Room Perfect. So much sonic improvement with so little effort! I've used many electronic equalizers over the years but this current version of Room Perfect is both the easiest to implement by far and yields what to my ears by a good measure the most sonic improvement. I hear no downsides whatever to using Room Perfect in the TDAI 3400.

More important than it once was, the ability of the Lyngdorf to conserve electricity when idling makes the unit extremely environmentally friendly. The case is never more than only very slightly warm to the touch. Not much electricity is being wasted through heat. I do not feel at all guilty about leaving the Lyngdorf on and playing 24/7. And even if the air conditioning is not running and my listening room door and window are shut, this small room does not get overly warm during extended listening sessions.

My initial sonic impressions I expressed in posts #2 and #3 above have been confirmed now that the Lyngdorf and its electrical connections are warmed up/broken in/settled in. If anything, the sense of ease and analog-like smoothess now exceeds that of the Lumin/Benchmark equipment.

I am constantly struck by how smoothly the streaming functions of the TDAI 3400 are integrated. It is simple and quick to switch from any form of streaming to another without any functional or sonic glitches at all.

Roon provides an easy way to listen to most anything except a few subscription services like Siriux/XM and JazzRadio, for which AirPlay is required. Unless I want to be very picky indeed, I usually listen via Roon, especially if i'm internet radio surfing mode. For many stations, in ten seconds or less, Roon provides a three-click method of moving from the low-res internet radio stream to CD or better quality of the same program streamed from Tidal or Qobuz

If I want to be picky about subjective sonic quality, with the Lyngdorf, the Tidal Connect input provides the absolute highest subjective quality for Tidal sources. The sonic quality of Mconnect via the Lyngdorf's UPnP input is the highest available for Qobuz, but only very slightly better than that of Roon.

For internet radio sources, I can compare the Roon Live Radio version with the vTuner, airable, and AirPlay versions. I generally prefer the sonics of those services which do not upsample/resample the stream of the particular station. While Roon makes available the highest quality internet radio streams, Roon unavoidably upsamples/resamples radio streams of less then FLAC quality to 24 bits from the usual 16 bit native version. Roon's upsampling/resampling of these streams seems to basically negate any advantage it might achieve by allowing streaming from higher bit rate streams. That said, the sonic quality of all the methods of streaming via the Lyngdorf is as high as I've experienced and the Lyngdorf makes such comparisons easier than most other streamers.

I should mention that if you have not compared the relative quality of Tidal Max and Qobuz HiRes streams lately--that is, since Tidal dropped most of its MQA versions--you may be pleasantly surprised that Tidal streams are now fully the equal if not better sounding than the Qobuz ones. Tidal streams have a bit more bass warmth and lack the bit of edge in the highs common to Qobuz HiRes, while having equivalent overall detail and transparency.

 

[Hear Here]

When I was researching and then searching for a solid sate amp to replace previous (mainly) SETs, I bought or borrowed 12 amps of all Classes, including the Benchmark AHB2 and Lyngdorf 3400.

For my taste the BM was a non-starter, despite its accuracy, dead silence and other nice features. My single-line summary for each amps shows "drearily dull" against the BM. It was an amp I was never inclined to turn up the volume and boogie to - music was more like Musak!

The 3400 fared much better, although I was only using its amplifier section. However, after following the RoomPerfect guidelines, my conclusion was that RP sucked the life out of the music after taking 2 sets of measurements. Perhaps, if I'd experimented more with alternative mic positioning, as you have, I may have got better results.

Despite the 3400's good sound, I chose a different amp that also offers the "all-in-one" features of the 3400 - but better overall with my own, very different speakers.

But with regard to "room correction" DSP (DSP can NEVER improve a room, can it?), I have found that attention to physical room features offers a MUCH better way of correcting room anomalies than messing with a nice accurate signal. We should be confident that well chosen (for the room) speakers and an accurate amplifier should deliver great sounds. Messing with the signal goes against the whole ethos of brands that build great equipment in my opinion. I'm not expecting many to agree, but I don't use the Dirac Live in my own amp, because music sounds more exciting and dynamic (top end sparkle), albeit possibly slightly less bass accuracy to a microphone's ears without a DSP filter.

DSP does gave a place in AV / HT systems with multiple speakers that most of us are unable to properly set up, but that shouldn't be the case with 2-channel music produced by well-selected kit. It's also a boon for DIY speaker builders because the software has no idea what the anomalies are caused by - it just adjusts the signal to compensate as best it can, thus "correcting" the likely deficiencies of a home-built speaker system. Also, it could be used in the bass-only section of active or hybrid speakers such as your earlier D&Ds or my own Avantgarde XDs, where the top part of the frequency range can receive an unmolested signal from the amp, while the bass alone gets a DSP'd (messed-with) signal!

I hope you are enjoying your present system and it continues to provides better sound at lower cost than your earlier ones.

 

[audioresurgence]

I enjoyed time with the 2170, prior to that the 2200 and prior to that the Tact RCS2.0

I liked the versatility of the 2170, particularly the option to use its RCA outs to feed a pair of monoblocks or a stereo amp, using the inbuilt amplification to power passive subs. With vintage Altec Valencias, that gave me the opportunity to run them with SET amps while extending the bottom end via a pair of modified Aerial SW12 passive subs, with everything pulled together via RoomPerfect.
I also experimented with the active crossover functionality built into the 2200/2170 to run the 2-way Valencias with 300b SET monoblocks on the horns and the inbuilt digital amplifier controlling the Valencia’s 15” woofers.
Superbly versatile and very good sounding.
Glad to hear that you’re enjoying your 3400.

 

[tmallin]

Yes, the speakers I tend to prefer are very different from Avantgardes. Heard from five feet away or less, as I usually listen in my very small room, most speakers reveal their inherent problems in an unavoidable way. This is why in this room I have focused on using speakers which speak with one voice--that is, where I cannot easily hear out the contributions of each driver--during near-ish field listening. The Avantgardes are terrible at this, as are most all large horn speakers--the drivers are just too far apart to cohere from ten feet away, much less five or less feet away.

As far as the concept of equalization is concerned, all crossovers are equalizers. The only difference between DSP and traditional analog crossovers which primarily use resistors, capacitors, and inductors in the signal path is whether the EQ is done in the digital or analog domain. If the designer does a decent job, he adjusts the speaker's response to provide the desired sound in whatever testing situation(s) he uses. I've found that in terms of crossovers, in near-ish field listening, simpler is subjectively better. These days only a first-order time-aligned arrangement (such as in the Watkins Gen 4) seems coherent enough; either that or a design which has no crossover at all in the critical part of the frequency band. My Graham LS8/1 speakers have no crossovers at all from deep bass up through 3.5 kHz.

Moving speakers and the listening position around in the listening room or adding absorbing or diffusing acoustical treatments is not electronic equalization at all, of course. Such manipulations work in the acoustical or mechanical realm. You are mostly simply adjusting the action of room modes and room surface reflections on what you hear from the speakers in the sweet spot. Most people try to arrange things so as to provide both a good frequency balance and good imaging/soundstaging.

I freely admit to giving greater priority to the spatial characteristics in my set ups. What I've recently found with Room Perfect in the TDAI 3400 is that I can have my cake and eat it, too. No longer do I have to be content with less than fabulous bass smoothness in order to achieve optimal imaging and staging. I really don't hear any electronic glaze, flattening of the presentation, or any other problems which could be attributed to Room Perfect's DSP when I flip back and forth between the Bypass and Focus settings of Room Perfect, something the Lyngdorf allows in a fraction of a second.

 

[tmallin]

Audioresurgence, I enjoyed my time with the Lyngdorf TDAI 2170 also. I used its flexibility to smoothly blend my Stirling LS3/6 speakers with the AudioKinesis Swarm subwoofers and their dual outboard amps. Room Perfect was literally the only thing I didn't like about the 2170. Either Room Perfect has since been "perfected" in the 3400, or my trick in avoiding positioning the measuring microphone randomly has now made Room Perfect literally perfect for my situation.

If interested, you can read about my experiences with the TDAI 2170 years ago in my threads dealing with the Stirling LS3/6 and blending those speakers with the AudioKinesis Swarm subwoofer array here, here (point 8), and here.

 

[tmallin]

I have just started experimenting with the Lyngdorf Voicings. I have used the Neutral Voicing most of the time. I do find, however, that for some brighter classical recordings, Music 1 or even Music 2 can take the "edge" off and sound more natural.

With Room Perfect working as well as it does in my system, I seldom feel the need for adding more bass, as long as the recording is not really thin sounding and I'm listening at a level I find natural sounding. I will have to experiment more with the thin sound sounding recordings. The Bass Voicings sometimes do sound better on those and perhaps I should experiment with the Action 1 Voicing for quieter and late-night listening.

For classical music fans, who also like exploring internet radio stations, I call your attention to two stations I have found enjoyable in recent months. The Performance Today stream can at times have a lot of talking, but the music this station plays is more unusual than that played by most classical stations and the ensembles playing are little heard elsewhere. The sound is decent for a low-resolution Internet radio station. You can find it within the TuneIn app. Then, if you input its URL into your My Live Radio station list in Roon, you can listen to it via Roon.

The identity of the Performance Today radio stream within TuneIn is a bit ambiguous. The one I'm talking about is:

https://tunein.com/radio/PerformanceToday-s309263/

As to Roon versus non-Roon listening, I've noticed that low-res internet radio streams usually sound best via the Lyngdorf (and the Lumin equipment) when they are not upsampled/resampled the way Roon always does. Generally the best sounding low-res internet radio streams are ones where the Lyngdorf screen displays PCM 16 44.1 kHz. Via Roon, the Lyngdorf screen will show all such streams as PCM 24 since Roon always upsamples/resamples such streams to 24 bits from their native 16. Very few internet radio streams are natively 24/44.1. or 24/48.

TuneIn stations generally sound pretty good via the Lyngdorf's AirPlay function--better than they did with the Lumin equipment. I'm not sure how much of that is just the Lyngdorf and how much is several software updates TuneIn has done lately which it claims improve sound quality.

The other of my favorite classical stations I want to mention (favorite based on a combination of programming and sound) can be found via the Lyngdorf's vTuner app by searching for "MPR Classical 99.5 Minneapolis". Make that an input preset on the Lyngdorf and it won't be upsampled/resampled by Roon if you play it via its dedicated radio station input. This station uses very little if any compression and subjectively has quite low distortion for a low-res signal. While it, too, sometimes has a lot of talk related mostly to the Minneapolis area, most of the time it either streams its own curated streams of classical MPR/NPR programming or shares programming with the Classical 24 service streamed on many other internet radio stations. The music generally sounds best on this station, however, due to the lack of compression and subjectively very low distortion. (Another version of this same stream is called Your Classical MPR, but that version does not sound quite as good. Yet another version which often plays the same programming is known as Your Classical Radio, but it is much more compressed and thus doesn't sound nearly as refined and natural.)

As to Hi-Res streaming services, users who exclusively or mainly use Qobuz as opposed to Tidal may want to try a trial Tidal subscription. Since Tidal dropped most of the MQA versions, Tidal's true high-res and Redbook versions often by comparison sound just a bit fuller in the low end and definitely less "edgy" in the high frequencies compared to the equivalent Qobuz versions. This is evident via Roon comparisons and more apparent via Mconnect and especially via the Tidal Direct input of the Lyngdorf. You may find less need for reducing brightness with Tidal, in other words, since the "edge" fairly common to Qobuz versions is also reduced by some of the non-Neutral Lyngdorf Voicings, such as Music 1 and Music 2.

By the way, the Lyngdorf does the first unfold of MQA material via its MQA core decoder function. Unlike the Lumin X1 I had, however, the Lyngdorf is not an MQA renderer and thus does not fully unfold encrypted MQA material. The Lumin equipment sounded better with MQA material than the Lyngdorf since the final unfolding pulls out excess brightness and creates a more relaxed-sounding presentation. But most of the MQA material has now been removed from Tidal; I've only run across couple of remaining MQA titles and I'm sure those will drop out of the service soon since Tidal has committed to replacing the MQA versions with their Max true high-resolution versions.

I love how the Lyngdorf makes moving from one stream to another so easy. I'm also enjoying experimenting with the various sonic "flavors" the Voicings function provides.